Help against the Space Puppies **Batrep posted!**

[Acebaur]

 

He ran two full squads of TWC each with an HQ attached and he had at least 3 SS's in each squad. He also spread them out adequately enough that I could only hit one model under the template. 

 

I don't think that's possible. The large blast i 5" across right? Coherency is 2", so you should always be able to fit at least 2 under it. Blast only has to cover a model with the central hole, it doesn't need to be centered on a model. 

 

How about thunder fire cannons? Forcing some dangerous terrain is always a nice bonus. 

 

 

Don't forget though that they sit on dreadnought bases, so that extends the range 

[knife&fork]

 

Don't forget though that they sit on dreadnought bases, so that extends the range 

 

 

You're not allowed to spread out more simply because you are mounted on a larger base. The unit as a whole will have a larger footprint, but the individual models still need to stay within 2". Enough for you to have the template touch at least 2 models. 

 

Or do you mean that the nearest model relative to the vindicator was right at 24"?

[Acebaur]

It was range a couple of times, I could only put it where it wouldn't touch anyone.

[minigun762]

 

 

 

Aren't cavalry immune to dangerous terrain?

 

On the contrary. They are never slowed by it but treat difficult as dangerous.

 

It's a really nice way to knock some wounds off a TWC unit during a game. With proper placement you'll force a ton of test since they need to get into combat.

 

Beasts are the ones that ignore terrain and automatically passes tests.

Ahh ok. I tend to treat all 4+ legged units as the same.

My mistake.

[librisrouge]

A TWC with a powerfist is only S9. Look up the million arguments about it on the web. The simple version is that you do multiples then bonuses when working out stats so the strength bonus from the thunder wolf should happen AFTER the fist's doubling, not before.

[Acebaur]

Nope they are S10 as they are S5 base. It is not an upgrade or a +1 or anything like that. Their statline simply says S5.

 

My problem is that the logic behind it is broken. Fluff speaking it is the wolf who grants the extra attacks and S and T, yet somehow magically he benefits from the SM's powerfist. But rules wise it is crystal clear unfortunately. 

[librisrouge]

I'll not try to devolve this into a rules debate but double check your reasoning. They have a piece of wargear that gives them that S5 in their stats. Adding another piece of wargear should mean that the new wargear is put in the proper order for establishing the final bonuses. In this case, it would go before the Thunderwolf bonus...and yes, it is a bonus, unless you're arguing that they didn't get the bonus from the gear they have (look at their entry) and would actually be S6 T7 base once its finally taken into account.

 

The reason this throws so many people off is that TWC didn't used to have the actual thunderwolf as a piece of wargear, just built in bonuses. Now they do. This changes things for them and I almost wonder if GW did it intentionally because of powerfists and the like. 

[knife&fork]

. They have a piece of wargear that gives them that S5 in their stats. 

 

That's the counter point, since they get a base stat increase it's not a bonus. It can't be removed or opted out in any way. Just like buying a bike makes you proper T5 and not T4+1 like in the olden days. 

Would you also argue that T4 characters that buy a TW mount can be doubled out by S8 while normal TWC can't? It's the same line of reasoning. 

[Acebaur]

Ahhh I see now what you are saying. I did not thoroughly read the TWM part. Now that I have I agree, they should be S9. I will bring it up with my LGS Thanks for pointing that out! 

[librisrouge]

 

. They have a piece of wargear that gives them that S5 in their stats. 

 

That's the counter point, since they get a base stat increase it's not a bonus. It can't be removed or opted out in any way. Just like buying a bike makes you proper T5 and not T4+1 like in the olden days. 

Would you also argue that T4 characters that buy a TW mount can be doubled out by S8 while normal TWC can't? It's the same line of reasoning. 

 

There isn't a single point of that argument that matters since Instant Death doesn't care about modifiers anymore at all. Any bonuses to T protect from ID. Nor am I arguing that the S bonus from thunderwolves is somehow opted out on.

 

I'm only arguing that the bonus from the fist or hammer goes in its proper place, before the bonus from the thunderwolves as the main rule book simply states it should be.

[Marshal Laeroth]

Ah, yes.  The Wolf Bros-hammer.  They are very, very effective rock units.  Best way to deal with them?  Same way you deal with other rock units.  Bubble wrap, rock units, and movement manipulation.  :D

[Acebaur]

That third option doesn't really work with them Laeroth, as they are one of the fastest units in the game being calvary ;)

[Marshal Laeroth]

That third option doesn't really work with them Laeroth, as they are one of the fastest units in the game being calvary

I used that as a catch-all. They are fast, but they still need to move around things like vehicles. That takes time and effort! :D

[Freman Bloodglaive]

 

 

. They have a piece of wargear that gives them that S5 in their stats. 

 

That's the counter point, since they get a base stat increase it's not a bonus. It can't be removed or opted out in any way. Just like buying a bike makes you proper T5 and not T4+1 like in the olden days. 

Would you also argue that T4 characters that buy a TW mount can be doubled out by S8 while normal TWC can't? It's the same line of reasoning. 

 

There isn't a single point of that argument that matters since Instant Death doesn't care about modifiers anymore at all. Any bonuses to T protect from ID. Nor am I arguing that the S bonus from thunderwolves is somehow opted out on.

 

I'm only arguing that the bonus from the fist or hammer goes in its proper place, before the bonus from the thunderwolves as the main rule book simply states it should be.

 

 

Except there is no bonus. Thunderwolf Cavalry are S5 and T5. Therefore with a power fist they are S10. RAW.

[librisrouge]

RAW, the wargear gives them a bonus...look up the units wargear and the rules the wargear contribute.

 

Unless you're arguing that that stat line doesn't include their wargear and unupgraded TWC are actually S6 T6 once they finally get the wargear applied. I doubt you mean that though.

[Freman Bloodglaive]

RAW characters given the wargear get a bonus, the cavalry have no mention anywhere of differing values.

 

Also, when the question was asked in the previous edition it was FAQed that TWC and characters were strength 10 with a power fist.

 

RAW and precedent says they're strength 10, both characters and TWC.

 

 

In addition, a model upgraded to have a Thunderwolf mount increases their Strength, Toughness, Attacks and Wounds characteristics by 1 (these bonuses are already included in the profiles of models that have a Thunderwolf mount as part of their standard wargear).

 

The text for modifiers (page 8) talks about modifiers being +1 increases. Furious charge uses that language, armoured steed for bikes does not. It uses the "increases toughness characteristic" language used by the thunderwolves. It is not a stat modifier, it is a characteristic increase therefore just as a biker (and a thunderwolf rider) is true toughness 5, the thunderwolf rider is true strength 5 hence strength 10 with a power fist.

[Acebaur]

RAW characters given the wargear get a bonus, the cavalry have no mention anywhere of differing values.

 

Also, when the question was asked in the previous edition it was FAQed that TWC and characters were strength 10 with a power fist.

 

RAW and precedent says they're strength 10, both characters and TWC.

 

 

In addition, a model upgraded to have a Thunderwolf mount increases their Strength, Toughness, Attacks and Wounds characteristics by 1 (these bonuses are already included in the profiles of models that have a Thunderwolf mount as part of their standard wargear).

 

The text for modifiers (page 8) talks about modifiers being +1 increases. Furious charge uses that language, armoured steed for bikes does not. It uses the "increases toughness characteristic" language used by the thunderwolves. It is not a stat modifier, it is a characteristic increase therefore just as a biker (and a thunderwolf rider) is true toughness 5, the thunderwolf rider is true strength 5 hence strength 10 with a power fist.

 

 

The previous edition has no bearing on this as that codex was written differently. The Thunderwolf mount section describes that they get the increase already included in their profile. Which means that a piece of wargear modified their profile. That falls clearly in the realm of what the BRB is talking about.

 

Also "Increase by 1" and +1 are exactly the same thing. It's basic english language. You could also use "add 1".

For reference: The "+" symbol is translated as "plus"  Merriam Webster's definition of plus.  

[librisrouge]

Thanks Acebaur, you're completely right. I was going to respond but I tire of correcting people all the time. I've had this argument at my FLGS and I've heard all the pro-S10 arguments out there and so many of them are either based on last edition, based on made up semantics, or wishful thinking.

[Sincollector]

The truth is there is ambiguity. The point Freman made wasn't addressed by Acebaur. There is difference between an increase added to a statline in-game and a permanently changed base characteristic. The text addressing modifiers isn't clearly addressing the second case. It does nobody any good on either side to act like the rules are perfectly clear and only idiots can't see it. The rules are not clear. I was firmly in one camp but this discussion has now placed me in the middle. Until GW issues a FAQ, the only thing you can do is attempt to politely settle it with your fellow gamers and resort to a roll-off if necessary.

[Raeven]

As written, it doesn't matter that twc get their bonus from wargear. Their base stat line is s5. The base stat gets doubled then bonuses added.

 

The same argument is not true for characters who select thunderwolves as mounts.

[Acebaur]

Alright, we are done discussing it. It has already been discussed at length in the OR and ended in a locked topic.  This is not the forum for such discussions anyway.

 

 

On topic, I'm planning another game against my friends SW.  I was thinking about running nearly the same list as I think most of my problems were related to tactical mistakes made by me. Thoughts on any changes to the list?

[Marshal Laeroth]

You lack anything to effectively deal with rock units.  Namely Wolf-Bros.  And from what it sounds like...that is one of his main units.  Then again, most of my advice would be contrary to what it seems you're trying to do with your list.  lol

[minigun762]

Alright, we are done discussing it. It has already been discussed at length in the OR and ended in a locked topic. This is not the forum for such discussions anyway.

 

 

On topic, I'm planning another game against my friends SW. I was thinking about running nearly the same list as I think most of my problems were related to tactical mistakes made by me. Thoughts on any changes to the list?

Double Vindicators and aim them at those puppy riders.

 

Hide in reserve if you're worried about the drop pods or invest in a parking lot to protect them.

[Acebaur]

You lack anything to effectively deal with rock units.  Namely Wolf-Bros.  And from what it sounds like...that is one of his main units.  Then again, most of my advice would be contrary to what it seems you're trying to do with your list.  lol

 

Well what would you suggest? And why would it be contrary to what I'm trying to achieve?

 

 

One of my new strategies is going to be to use the Sternguard to weaken the TWC. Doing some math, they will average 1.5 dead TWC per full volley of shooting. 

 

I'm honestly at a loss as to what to do to effectively take down the TWC. He runs like 3-4 SS's so even stuff that punches their armor is going to have trouble. So I was thinking to saturate them with fire and make him roll as many saves as possible. Even Hammernators will have trouble I think because of their SS's. But I can try some out in the LRC instead of the crusaders(I'd still take the Crusader as a DT for a troop unit though to get OS)

[Marshal_Roujakis]

Vindicare Rifle?

 

It unleashes a:

• S10 AP2 No Cover Save Against Vehicles - so you could shoot at Vehicles if the TWC are gone
• S- AP2 Sniper with D3 Wounds and No Cover Save, you might bet lucky and remove 1 from play.
• S- AP2 Poisoned 2+ and No Cover Saves
• S- AP2 Sniper and no Saves of ANY KIND. This should get rid of a TWC that is down to 1 wound.

All Hits from a Vindicare rifle has Precision Shot and a -2 to Look Out Sir! rolls.

 

Or you could just field an Imperial Knight :p