Legion Hunter Anti-Air tank?

[Atia]

Simple question:

 

Do you think the Hunter was used during the Great Crusade/HH era? As there isn't a clear time designation of when the Hunter was first introduced, but we have some other statements: 

 

The Hunter is the first known dedicated anti-aircraft platform fielded by the Adeptus Astartes. Prior to the discovery of the STC for the Hunter, Space Marine forces had attempted to retrofit various designs to the Whirlwind artillery vehicle, with largely negative results.[1] Though a stable pattern of anti-aircraft Whirlwind was ultimately achieved in the Hyperios, several Chapters have continued to use the Hunter on many battlefields, including the recent Third War for Armageddon.[3]

 

We know that the Legions fields Whirlwind Hyperios' (see the Legion Whirlwind entry).

 

 

 

• 1: Epic Armageddon Rulebook, p.81
• 3: Imperial Armour Volume Two - Space Marines and Forces of the Inquisition, pg. 58

 

We also know that the Stalker  is based on an adaption of the Hunter STC that was unearthed only a few millennium ago (like land raider cursader/redeemer). So the Stalker was NOT used during HH/GC.

 

What do you think? Can we use Hunters (in small numbers) at our HH Games?

[Adra'Melek]

Depends what you mean.  Is the Hunter the one in the new SM codex? If so how are taking it as it's not in any HH army lists.  But if you were playing me and made that argument I'd let you give it a go.

 

Minor point, where's [2]?

[Atia]

Depends what you mean.  Is the Hunter the one in the new SM codex? If so how are taking it as it's not in any HH army lists.  But if you were playing me and made that argument I'd let you give it a go.

 

Minor point, where's [2]?

 

More from a fluff point of view =) 

 

sources and quotes are from lexicanum, 2nd source would be the GW homepage =)

[Adra'Melek]

Fluff-wise, from what you've put up (not got C:SM but trust you on that one) then it seems pretty clear cut.

 

The only thing I would say is that it says that several Chapters have continued to use them. Since the Hyperios came into being before the HH they may well have taken over from the Hunter for most things by then.  Then perhaps there was a revival, or just a few chapters within the Legions used them, which is why they aren't part of the lists.  Or maybe the Hunter STC was lost for a bit or the mold needed replacing so they were out of stock.

[GhostMalone]

Call it a sky spear like in the days of epic

[Moonstalker]

Simple question:

 

Do you think the Hunter was used during the Great Crusade/HH era? As there isn't a clear time designation of when the Hunter was first introduced, but we have some other statements: 

 

The Hunter is the first known dedicated anti-aircraft platform fielded by the Adeptus Astartes. Prior to the discovery of the STC for the Hunter, Space Marine forces had attempted to retrofit various designs to the Whirlwind artillery vehicle, with largely negative results.[1] Though a stable pattern of anti-aircraft Whirlwind was ultimately achieved in the Hyperios, several Chapters have continued to use the Hunter on many battlefields, including the recent Third War for Armageddon.[3]

• 1: Epic Armageddon Rulebook, p.81
• 3: Imperial Armour Volume Two - Space Marines and Forces of the Inquisition, pg. 58

 

I think this is a bit of an example of the unreliability of Lexicanum.  The IA volume they quote is outdated, replaced now by War Machines of the Adeptus Astartes and was produced before the Hunter/Stalker were created for the SM dex.  IA2: WMotAA (which came out after the Hunter/Stalker were introduced) does not mention whether the Hunter/Stalker or Hyperios was first, but simply compares them as the Hyperios being more mobile and easier to produce but not quite as good in the dedicated AA role.  The Hunter referred to in the first edition of IA2 is NOT the Hunter from the SM dex, it is specifically mentioned as an older Whirlwind variant - which the new version of IA makes it clear that the Hunter/Stalker are not.  Though they are, "substantial modifications of the Rhino chassis."

 

I don't have the Epic rulebook, but I have my doubts about the first half of the paragraph given the inaccuracy of the second.  It could be that the first sentence is entirely unsourced, and the Epic reference is only for the "Prior to the discovery of the STC for the Hunter, Space Marine forces had attempted to retrofit various designs to the Whirlwind artillery vehicle, with largely negative results" bit.

 

 

As for the actual question.

 

 

What do you think? Can we use Hunters (in small numbers) at our HH Games?

 

With your opponent's permission, anything is possible.  But as far as standard, universally acceptable gameplay that you can rely on for pickup games with strangers?  No, it's not in any of the HH rulebooks, it's not permissible.

[Atia]

think this is a bit of an example of the unreliability of Lexicanum. The IA volume they quote is outdated, replaced now by War Machines of the Adeptus Astartes and was produced before the Hunter/Stalker were created for the SM dex. IA2: WMotAA (which came out after the Hunter/Stalker were introduced) does not mention whether the Hunter/Stalker or Hyperios was first, but simply compares them as the Hyperios being more mobile and easier to produce but not quite as good in the dedicated AA role. The Hunter referred to in the first edition of IA2 is NOT the Hunter from the SM dex, it is specifically mentioned as an older Whirlwind variant - which the new version of IA makes it clear that the Hunter/Stalker are not. Though they are, "substantial modifications of the Rhino chassis."

yeah, but it's the only quote about when the hyperios/hunter were first created, GW doesn't state that in the new codex (same as with the stormtalon if i'm correct, only the centurions get a M.36 time stample). I have the second edition, and know what it states, but it's the same with 1st edition fluff - deredeo and furibundus dreadnoughts weren't either in the newer editions, but still exist (and haven't rules from FW yet). The old Hunter is the new Hunter, the new Hunter is the Epic Hunter with an updated rocket launcher (epic one have an hunter rocket launcher, which can shoot wider than a normal whirlwind, but it looked the same as the new hunter). GW seems to use old Epic goodies often the last times (tyranids, knights, hunter ...).

But atleast, i may use a hunter as prototype/alpha variant of the modern hunter, with an hunter rocket launcher instead of a skyspear, who was hard to produce and a bit like the achilles-alpha / lightning-primaris. (just love the model, and the modern whirlwind isn't as nice)

With your opponent's permission, anything is possible. But as far as standard, universally acceptable gameplay that you can rely on for pickup games with strangers? No, it's not in any of the HH rulebooks, it's not permissible.

rule-wise, the easiest method is to use the hyperios rules as count-as, so that's not the problem. Also, HH games are more about the fluff and fun and not so about 100% universally acceptable gameplay in my eyes (but i'm a fluff player and hate tournaments^^)

[Hyaenidae]

One of the things mentioned in the Crusade army book is that various vehicles existed outside of those shown, and that super-heavies that exist in the other IA books can be chosen, and even piloted by astartes at a price. Though they really meant super-heavies (I can't get the image out of my head of a Marauder Destroyer piloted by Legionnaires :D ), you could use this excuse to field a wide range of GW models on the tabletop, as long as you receive permission from your opponent.

 

If all else fails, it could make a pretty cool stand in for a Whirlwind Scorpius.  :)