Brainstorming: 'Assault-based SW' or 'the Meta-Killer'

[Frater Cornelius]

Hey Lads! Get your thinking-furs and ale out. It is time for a brainstorming session! *howl*

After the 'The Quest for Purity' thread basically concluded on a very satisfying list and a lot of good information (thanks to everyone participating), time to bring the discussion away from alpha strike and HaA tactics and do something new.

So, just recently I checked what was going on on German tournaments and how other big ones like the Nova Open GT 2014 went. And I was (not) shocked at all to discover that it is dominated by the following lists:

Eldar Serpent Spam and Knights, Necron Skimmers, Tau Crisis/Triptide, White Scars, Psychic Daemons, GK tripple NDK

So, what do all of those lists have in common? Tough models/units and cover saves.

Any Marine army has some problems with deal with 2+ MC and FMC due to not having easy access to AP2, Rending and all that jazz, and Marines also have trouble with good cover saves and getting enough s7/s8 dakka going to threaten jinking skimmers.

However, we as Space Wolves have an edge. Because we can do this nifty thing that pretty much spits on the majority of problems above: we have mastered the Art of Choppa!

Wait, why do I consider melee a viable option in a shooty edition? Well, most of those perks that xenos armies get from shooting, we have it melee. We have rending, we have an ice bucket full of dice on the charge, we have a very solid melee armoury and most importantly, we have a very solid way to get there. Also, melee ignores cover saves and high front/side armour of vehicles.

Between our fast assault units, cheap assault units or both as well 2 pretty strong assault vehicles, I think something can be done.

So, let's stitch together a SW assault based army to challenge today's meta.

I have several units in mind:

TWC goes without saying. Cavalry (and beasts) are the best assault units in the game. TWC are tough, fast, get more attacks than I have custom SW dice. This also goes for TWM characters like WL, WGBL and IP. And do not forget Fenrisian Wolves.

Then we have Bikes. WG bikers and HQ bikers.

Next, Bloodclaws. They have a very solid selection of rides for them, too.

Lone Wolves is also something I would consider. They are cheap and they have the means to get there now (namely deep striking).

And finally, the only ally I would ever consider: Imperial Knights. Fast as Cavalry, pretty darn tough and decent shooting to boot. They would make for solid fire magnet. And should anyone want to kill TWC and ignore the Knight, he will have to deal with him in melee.

So, I am looking forward to your suggestions

[Commander_Moustache]

Stormwolves loaded with bloodclaws. With 2 twin-linked multi melters, they can take down any flyer and any FMC will easily have 4 wounds stripped from it (say hello to 3 twin S8 ap1 and 1 twin S9 ap2 hit) and anythign on the ground takes a charge from the 60 attacks from the blood claws (some as power weapons) and possibly with rerolls of 1 if you have a wolf preist nearby. Pair with a wolf standard in a nearby grey hunter squad for a whopping 75 attacks. EVERYTHING DIES!

[Blackwinter]

I really like imperial knights and fluff wise i think some freeblades that are helping to defend Fenris is nice. the issue with them is i think how many will we take ? 1 as a support ally? Or 3 of them with Adamantite Lance formation and making the list around them. And there is the beast Gerantius. It is 500 pts but i dont know how much it is efficient?

 

As an assault base army i think we should consider about wiping the enemy. At least its troops.

[pedrogzc]

Gerantius is a beast!!!! Run and fire, 3++ shield and ws 5... But 500 points. Who knows if he is worthy enough

[Frater Cornelius]

Aye, Gerantius is worth considering as long as we do not compromise the rest of the list to accommodate him. Otherwise it is going to be a Errants Knight. i would not consider 3 Knights, but if the list allows, or even supports it, there can be 2 Knights instead of 1 Gerantius.

 

As for the general strategy, Blackwinter has a point. Objective games are for MSU and ranged armies. Melee is to prevent the enemy from scoring while itself scoring from the other objectives. We are lucky to have our own 11-16 card which involve melee centric things like challenges, killing characters, killing in melee and killing big things. So pressure is the name of the game. The enemy has to deal with us NOW. If he does not, he will be slaughtered.

[Sturm Moonwolf]

Well I play assault, but the one thing I have found to be the last word in close support next to my knights is a Lord of War. Say hello to my little friend.

 

[/url]">http://http://s814.photobucket.com/user/JimKearney/media/Space%20Wolf%20Army/PART_1411046627569.jpg.html'>http://i814.photobucket.com/albums/zz69/JimKearney/Space%20Wolf%20Army/PART_1411046627569.jpg

 

That is all.

[Frater Cornelius]

Hm, let us leave Forge World out of the question for now. They are not allowed at most tournaments in Germany.

[Blackwinter]

if we use 1 standart knight and 1-2 units of TWC we need to keep the rest cheap i think.

 

bu we need a good delivery and safe delivery system for the asaulters:

 

stomrwolves, land raiders and land speeders. i dont know if miss something. i cannot consider pods or rhinos here cos waiting for one turn is deadly with those shooty armies.

 

and i assume we need to use Bloodclaws for torrent of attacks with Ulrik or standart wolf priest  as mentioned above. 

 

 

[Frater Cornelius]

Well, do not forget that we are still a rather expensive army. We can not have claws and twc and speeders and knights. We need to narrow down our choices and work from there.

In my eyes, I feel Wolves, TWC/TWM and Knights are effectively cheaper and safer, because they do not need a delivery system compared to Claws. They all move 12" by default. I also play COF, so troops are not mandatory, elites are though.

 

As for pods. I will not focus on them, but I will not discount them either. They offer valuable distraction. But this is not an alpha strike list, so let us get a core together first and work from there.

I can give you the first 240 points, which is my Jarl (SS, RA, TWM, Krakenbone Sword, Fellclaw's Teeth).

 

Although, if you have a good reason for claws + delivery system as opposed to units that move on their own, I am all ears.

[Blackwinter]

so my first list

 

everything moves 12" and delivers real amount of punishment. and none of them can be ignored. 

 

if we go second and the enemy moves (which is likely) we can have a 1st turn charge. either the jarl and iron priests are real therats even moving alone.

 

long fangs ae there for ap2 support. somethings can be killed with them before assaulting. and with those 4xlascannons they can't be ignored too.

 

so what do you say?

 

 

[1] Champions of Fenris

---------- HQ (1 + 0) ----------

[1] Wolf Lord
- Warlord
- Runic armour
- Bolt Pistol
- Thunderwolf
- 2x Fenrisian Wolves
- Fellclaw's Teeth
- Krakenbone Sword
- Melee Weapon
__- Storm Shield

---------- Troops (0 + 1) ----------

 Knight Paladin

---------- Elite (3 + 0) ----------

[1] Iron Priest
- Boltgun
- Thunderwolf
- 4x Cyberwolf


[1] Iron Priest
- Boltgun
- Thunderwolf
- 4x Cyberwolf


[1] Iron Priest
- Boltgun
- Thunderwolf
- 2x Cyberwolf


---------- Fast Attack (2 + 0) ----------

Thunderwolf Cavalry 4x

4 storm shields

1 pf

2x wolf claw

1x chain sword

 

Thunderwolf Cavalry 4x

4 storm shields

1 pf

2x wolf claw

1 chain sword

---------- Heavy Support (1 + 0) ----------

[1] 6x Long Fangs
- Heavy Bolter
- 4x Lascannon
- Long Fang Ancient
__- Bolt Pistol
__- Chainsword
 

 

1846 on the dot
 

[Frater Cornelius]

It is a solid start. I like how TWC is on anti infantry and MC duty while IP handle the heavy stuff.

Too many SS though.

 

Let me show you a 700 points blueprint I was planning to start off from:

 

Jarl, TWM, SS, RA, KBS, FCT, 2 Wolves

 

4 TWC, 2 SS

4 TWC, 2 SS

8 Wolves

 

I do not think that an assault based SW list is complete without TWC. I left the weapons out for now because I need to see what job the rest of the list is doing.

 

At this point I need to decide. LR with Claws or Knights. They cost approx. the same. Claws are superior in killing infantry and the LR brings good dakka. But they are easily stopped by getting a lucky pen against the LR. If I go that route, the TWC will be more on anti tank duty.

Or instead of 2 Land Raiders I take 2 Errant Knights. They eat hordes (with stomp), tanks (ranged and melee) and MC (in melee) for breakfast and are only stopped by killing them.

If I take those, TWC will be more on anti infantry duty.

 

Alternatively instead of 2 Raiders and 2 Knights I take 1 Gerantius and flesh out my SW component with more TWC, IP or Bikes.

 

Let's clear that up before we move on.

[FenrisWolf]

Can someone point me to where the rules for Gerantius are? I've looked in the Red Waaaagh! and in White Dwarf 23.  Can't find them.

[Frater Cornelius]

White Dwarf Issue 24. He is an Errant Knight who can run+shoot, WS5, BS5, IWND, reroll stomp attacks, 3++ (instead of 4++) and costs 130 points more than a regular Errant.

[irwit]

A bit spammy but ...

 

Wolf priest with 8 WG with combi plasmas in a  pod.

 

Dreadnought 2 x autocannon

 

3 x 5 TWC,  all SS plus one fist per unit

 

Knight Paladin.  

 

 

Gives you a turn 1 annihilation of your opponents scariest looking unit with the plasma.   Each unit of TWC takes a section of the board and keeps running until it gets into combat.  Theres nothing these guys can take out.  Each unit can easily handle a land raider,  demon prince or large unit as it has high strength,  lots of attacks,  amazing inunerable and strength 10 hidden powerfist.  

 

Dread was just there to make up points in the elite section.   You could also get a cheap unit of WG TDA and stick a locator beacon on the pod but being honest Id prefer the dread as you can potentially go for fliers or light transports.

 

The knight is there really as a distraction unit.  Your TWC will do the most damage in this army so any fire at the knight just helps you.  Also encourages your opponent not to bunch up with the large blasts. 

[toonarmy]

Liking this discussion a lot as i am finding myself drifting towards CC as we seem to be one of the only armies that can do this effectively, as the OP stated.

 

Chucking something random in there but our dreads are better than most.  Dropping in a venerable (with axe and shield) as well as murderfang is quite nice and they are killy.  i actually prefer them to a knight simply for the fact that its cheaper both in points and in terms of cold hard cash!

 

I have been working on a list that runs a screen of fenrisian wolves but I'm not sure about them.  Has anybody had experience?  my thinking is that they are much cheaper than a bloodclaw yet better in CC and faster so this makes up for their poor save.  Running them in front of TWC will then give the TWC a cover save so may help to lessen casualties on none SS toting models.

[Frater Cornelius]

I like Fenrisian Wolves and Cyber Wolves superior in some ways. FW are cheaper, faster and better WS but 1 less attack and 6+. Have a Lord escort them and you will get into melee much faster.

They do not have a Land Raider/Stormwolf tax.

 

This is why I personally prefer 2 Errants/1 Gerantius over 2 Raiders with claws.

[pedrogzc]

You need something to take on invisible death stars... Are we calling for a Culexus?!

 

Also tyranids with 3 dakkafexes, dual flying tyrants and 2 crones can be a real pain in the ass

[Frater Cornelius]

Dakkafexes will only get 1 shooting phase against a Knights and a flyrant will not be able to take one down.

 

Also, a Knight can handle those stars most of the time. Stomping Attacks are automatic hits that remove from play on a 6. Just have to make sure that said start also attacks on I1 or can not kill the knight that fast.

[pedrogzc]

Mmmm could be, could be...

Definitively I have to try it.

But I'll start with a regular knight.

[ORKILL]

I use:

Canis

Harold

 

9x GH 2x Melta, PP, WG w/ CM/PF DP w Locator Beacon

9x HH 2x Plasma, PP, Banner, WG w/ PF/CP, DP w Locator Beacon

14x BC power axe, WG TDA w/ SS/WC

 

5x WG TH/SS, PW/HF, CM, Arjak

Iron Priest TWM, 3 cyber wolves

 

3 TWC 2xPF/SS 1 SS/MB

14 Fenrisian Wolves and 1 Cyber Wolf,

 

It does the job.

[Frater Cornelius]

Okay my beautiful Wolves, I have 3 lists for you to check out. All 3 involve Imperial Knight(s)

List 1:

Jarl

• TWM, SS, RA, KBS, FCT

• 2 Hounds

Iron Priest

• TWM

• 4 Cyber Hounds

Iron Priest

• TWM

• 4 Cyber Hounds

4 TWC

• 2 SS, 1 Wolf Claw

4 TWC

• 2 SS, 1 Wolf Claw

13 Hounds

Errant Knight

Errant Knight

1850

List 3:

Jarl

• TWM, SS, RA, KBS, FCT

• 2 Hounds

Rune Priest

• Bike, RA, ML2, Axe

Rune Priest

• Bike, RA, ML2, Axe

Iron Priest

• TWM

• 4 Cyber Hounds

Iron Priest

• TWM

• 4 Cyber Hounds

4 TWC

• 2 SS, 1 Wolf Claw

4 TWC

• 2 SS, 1 Wolf Claw

8 Hounds

Errant Knight

1710

I can add one Bike unit or TDA LW. I can also drop RP and add 2x6 bikes with SS, 3 CP and 2 Meltabombs.

This will be 1850

Let me know if you like any of the three or if you think all three are garbage

[Hear da Lamentation]

I can't comment on the knights, I know nothing about them. I will comment on Stormwolf though. Against 2 flyrants I think you can forget the "4 wounds" comment. One being shot will jink leaving other to shoot. You'll be lucky to get 2 wnds. Then the other will shoot the storm wolf with 12 twin linked Str 6 shots.

[Frater Cornelius]

I can't comment on the knights, I know nothing about them. I will comment on Stormwolf though. Against 2 flyrants I think you can forget the "4 wounds" comment. One being shot will jink leaving other to shoot. You'll be lucky to get 2 wnds. Then the other will shoot the storm wolf with 12 twin linked Str 6 shots.

 

Which is nothing special either. If he does not jink we will get 9 hits, 1.5 glances. If he jinks he will get around 3-4 hits and 0.5-0-75 glances. Nothing special if you ask me.

[Frater Cornelius]

Update:

I just noticed that WD special characters are not allowed in many tournaments, not just German ones. There are those that allow it, but frankly, I do not want to take any chances of my List not being usable and needed to rewritten a few times over because some jerks did not allow it.

 

Second Update:

Knights are also not always allowed, so I guess if I take one, I am going to take only 1 Errant Knight (which I can also use as Gerantius). That way my list keeps enough flexibility to exchange the Knight with something else.

 

Or do you think it is not worth the risk and I should make an assault list without the help of a Knight?

[wulfgar hammerfist]

Tinkering around with AB, I came up with this for a 2k list, which is what we play locally:

 

Bjorn

 

2 x BlizzDreads

4 x TLLC Dreads

 

2 x 4 TWC: 2 x SS; 1 x 2WC, 1 x PF

 

Landspeeder Typhoon

 

Whirlwind

 

Knight Paladin

 

The dreads and knight form the hard center with the WW firing templates in support to thin out hordes. The TWC work the flanks while the LST swoops around taking pot shots or snatching objectives. Th dread weaponry could be tweaked a little but it offers a decent amount of shooting, a few large blasts, considerable assault ability and target prioritization problems for the opponent. The dreads could also bubble wrap the knight to an extent to make it difficult to target it outside of the 4++ zone or at least give it a 5++ for shooting through another unit.