Brainstorming: 'Assault-based SW' or 'the Meta-Killer'

[FenrisWolf]

I think flexibility says to plan the list around a knight errant and then have a "plug in" unit of same points and similar role to swap in if the touney requires.

 

And I was one number off on the WD.  Thanks!

[Frater Cornelius]

Yeah. I only have 1 Knight (wreckage) which I will convert to look like a Space Wolf giant. It will be a Knight Errant or Gerantius. So 370-500 extra point, which can be taken by another centerpiece like another TWC unit or Land Raider.

So, because of that I would suggest doing it the other way. Let us create a pure SW list and after it is done see which unit can be replaced by a Knight.

Let me give you another blue print:

Jarl

• TWM, SS, RA, KBS, FCT

• 2 Hounds

Iron Priest

• TWM

• 4 Cyber Hounds

Iron Priest

• TWM

• 4 Cyber Hounds

4 TWC

• 2 SS

4 TWC

• 2 SS

966 points

The other 884 points are up for debate here. In worst case scenario the IP can be swapped with other 2 Elite choices.

You may suggest anything that focuses primarily on assault and high pressure (no Forge World, WD or Dataslates). More TWC is always an option but we want diversity.

[skeletoro]

Haven't yet read the entire thread but where do we stand on fenrusian and cyberwolves, in general?

 

In a majority t5 cc unit, fenrisian wolves seem like a pretty good deal ar only 8pt per model. they are arguably worth their points as ablative shields when being used to suck up ap2-3, when compared to a TWC model. At 20% of the cost, but with half the survivability vs a power weapon. Vs ID attacks they are even better.

 

Vs non-ID ap4-6 I don't think they are particularly great even as ablative wounds - they die six times as fast as TWC and cost five times as much.

 

Cyberwolves seem less cost effective in this regard as they are much more expensive, and you can get fewer than three cyberwolves for the cost of a TWC. Against AP5 they may be worthwhile, though - you lose about 3 cyberwolves per TWC casualty. Against ID (as long as it isn't exactly AP4) they ought to be useful, points-wise, as ablative wounds.

 

In terms of damage inflicted, they may be pretty good against hordes but thunderwolves don't really struggle in that regard anyway. So I'm not sure there is a lot of need to supplement the TWC in that regard.

 

Against shooting attacks, they may be useful as ablative wounds if the unit can obtain a good cover save. Otherwise it's hard for the SW player to allocate wounds to their advantage.

[Frater Cornelius]

Wolves are great. If only 2 FA slots will be taken by TWC then I will get a full unit of Wolves. If all 3 are taken by TWC, then I will stock up on Cyber Pups and wargear Wolves.

 

Update:

Taking the blue print from above. What are you thinking about a third TWC unit? That way we have 2 TWC units with IP and his pups and 1 TWC unit to accommodate the Jarl.

This would clock in at 1156 points and give me 3 extremely dangerous and tough units that can split into 6 units.

 

Also, If I am taking so many TWC and Beasts, I might consider Harald in addition to my Jarl. Harald would be the warlord and give every TWC/TWM and Beast Furious Charge.

Sounds broken. If I take him I would have 500 points left to spend. This would either be a Knight + some small unit, Gerantius or (if no Knights are allowed), 2 fully kitted out biker units or 3 minimalistic ones.

Or maybe Father Christmas in his Sled. I do have plenty of repair potential after all.

 

I am liking the Idea of a third TWC unit but not sure if Harald is worth it. Or maybe the third TWC unit is not worth it. Tell me what you think.

[skeletoro]

But what do you see the use of fenrisians being, given you could just get more TWC?

[Frater Cornelius]

But what do you see the use of fenrisians being, given you could just get more TWC?

Ablative wounds. And in case of cyber, challenge eater. I could convince mysel that I am taking them for the damage, but their performance pales in comparison to TWC. Although, with Haralds bubble they would be a serious threat.

But they are cheap. So just wounds for my Lord and points sonewhere else. But I think 3 TWC units would be superior.

[irwit]

At 40 points for a naked twc model its 5 fws for a twc. However with no armour save and losing a model per wound I would say the twc model is probably more survivable and get rending. Twc all the way unless you are feeling fluffy.

[skeletoro]

Yeah, even if they don't quite cut it as ablative wounds for regular TWC they surely would for expensive and valuable units like lords. Of course this does beg the question a little bit because survivability (for a given source of damage) is transitive: if x > y > z then x > z.

 

That said, there are lots of different possible sources of damage. Naked TWC will better tank ap6, but fenrisians will better tank ap3 ID attacks.

 

Not sure about the challenge eating: as pointed out by squark in another thread, when a champions WG character is fighting a challenge they have preferred enemy and the whole unit gets to benefit from it. So barring rare cases you should have your TWC pack leaders take challenges assuming you're using the supplement.

[Frater Cornelius]

Well, I have 4 cyber wolves for each Priest. If he joins my TWC, that is 4 necron bodies extra for the unit.

The challenge thing becomes relevant when IP is riding solo with his wolves. TWC pack leader must take priority due to COF rules.

[Blackwinter]

 

But what do you see the use of fenrisians being, given you could just get more TWC?

Ablative wounds. And in case of cyber, challenge eater. I could convince mysel that I am taking them for the damage, but their performance pales in comparison to TWC. Although, with Haralds bubble they would be a serious threat.

But they are cheap. So just wounds for my Lord and points sonewhere else. But I think 3 TWC units would be superior.

 

this is a so good idea. but , only have 12 tcw and 12 fenrisian wolves.

 

you are killing my wallet... ;)

[Frater Cornelius]

Well, I am using WHFB Chaos Knights as TWC, so almost half the price for 5 models ;)

I would be running 3x 4 TWC, 2 SS, Jarl with 2 pups, 2x IP with 4 pups. That results in 3 TWM chars, 12 TWC and 10 pups (8 of which are cyber) for the main part of my army.

 

So, we all agree that 3 units of TWC is the way to go? Or are there alternative solutions?

Also, what is the feedback on Harald as a second HQ and warlord for the cav/beast buff.

[Blackwinter]

i think Harald is Ulric for Twc. his buffs changes the twc  and fenrisian wolves to a meat grinder. if you would go for 3x twc units you must take him. the drawback here is the cost of HQ's is too high for 1850pts i think. may be you can change your Jarl with he same setup to WGBL.   

[pedrogzc]

Three units of TWC may be too much, additionally i wouldn't go out without a PF or TH in each unit. Sometimes rending isn't reliable.

[Frater Cornelius]

Not necessarily. You have to consider the Jarl as a 4th TWC unit. He alone has incredible damage potential. In my previous list I had Jarl + Ulrik + Arjac (although he is not in the HQ slot) which results in 516 points. Jarl + Harald = 446 points. There is a rule of thumb that a balanced list should not commit more than 20% of the points to HQ. 20% of 1850 is 370 points. 446 should be around 24%. Given that melee-centric lists usually overstep this because it is much easier and efficient to make characters into melee brickhouses as opposed to shooty HQs (Tau notwithstanding) I think this is a solid way to go. After all, both the Jarl and Harald can do white a bit of damage in melee and are very durable in their own right (as opposed to, say, the CSM Axe General).

 

Okay, so if I include the 3 TWC units, 2 IP, Jarl and Harald there is 500 points left to go. If Gerantius is legal, then he will take this place. But what if neither he nor the Errant Knight are legal. What can we do with 500-600 points (if I work around with the other units a bit)?

 

I have the following suggestions:

 

2x 6 WG Bikes, SS, 1 melta bomb, 3 combi-weapons = 2x 200 = 400 points with 100 points to go on either bigger units or some other fun bits

 

3x 5 WG bikes, 2 combi-meltas, 1 melta bomb = 3x 150 = 450 with 50 points to go

 

1x 6 WG bikes, SS, 1 mb, 2 combi-weapons + stormwolf dedicated (with Skyhammer) = 200 + 215 = 415, 75 to go

 

2x 5 BC in a Stormwolf (Skyhammer) = 2x 275 = 550, I have to drop 50 points somewhere

 

3x 5 BC, flamer, pod = 3x 100 = 300. Solid scoring unit and to push random things like cultists of objectives. This leaves me with 200 points to go for a 6man bike unit.

 

Other suggestions perfectly welcome ;)

[pedrogzc]

I will go with two 6 WG bikers with combis, probably I would add a single power weapon and shuffle the last 70 points in your TWC units.

[Frater Cornelius]

A Fist for each TWC would cost 75. So that would be a valid strategy.

[Blackwinter]

I would take 3 pods with 5 BC and with the remaining 200 pts take the 4x lascannon long fangs.

[Frater Cornelius]

There is also the option to take Harald as my only HQ. The only difference is that he attacks at I1 and only has a 3+ save and he cannot reroll failed hits in melee. But it would save me 248 points for more boys. Possibly a Stormwolf gunship or something like that.

[pedrogzc]

mmmm I prefer the Jarl, but securing saga of the wolfkind is a big improvement.

 

I'm more prone to be 100% CaC oriented and not leaving statics units behind as would be LF, Dreads or even TDA WG (unless they teleport as part of 1-2 punch). They are weak spots in the army where the enemy can apply pressure and distract points from your main force.

 

Example of bad play is my last report (still to be written in my blog) but I can show you a little. On paper I made a combined arms army, some LF shooting, some TWC (for counter charge or attack alpha strikers over my deployment), 3 pods with hunters and 2 rhino with more hunters for objetive grabbing. We rolled for mission (eternal war, not maelstrom) and we ended with annhilation.... But the wulfen possesed myself and I launch an all out attack with one hunters in rhino, hunters in pod and TWC. I ended hitting only with my TWC (poor colocation of hunters from rhino and failing assault roll with the other hunters). I was shattered! After losing TWC, my units were picked by three or 4 enemy units at one time, so a ver bad losing. Long story short, if you are going to be CaC oriented, you need all the army fully commited to that role, leaving LF or similar units in the backyard is not only removing points from your main attack force, but also leaving soft spots to be attacked by the enemy.

[Hear da Lamentation]

Do an assault list without the Knight Immersturm.  they are (1) ridiculous and (2) cheesy as hell.  (Hence some competitions not allowing them I would imagine)

 

Surely we have enough Umph to do an assault list without having to resort to silly giant robots.

[Frater Cornelius]

Hm, the saga is a massive force multiplier. If I had to choose between a good solo unit or the entire army benefiting, I would choose the army. I can not afford having any TWC to fall back and WS5 and +1S on charge basically replaces my divination.

So my Odin Lord will now represent Harald Deathhorse (?). That way I save enough point for pressure units.

Vindicators come to mind. I need some first turn pressure and a way to open transports at range so that TWC can charge the content.
Big pie plates also have the advantage that if it touches another unit or scattern onto one, it cannot jink. Only the designated target is allowed to jink. This forces the enemy to spread his stuff, making it easier to isolate.

 

Current List

 

 

Jarl
• Harald
• 2 Hounds

Iron Priest
• TWM
• 4 Cyber Hounds
Iron Priest
• TWM
• 4 Cyber Hounds

4 TWC
• 2 SS, Powerfist
4 TWC
• 2 SS, Powerfist

4 TWC
• 2 SS, Powerfist

 

Vindicator

• Siege Shield

Vindicator

• Siege Shield

 

1441 points. 409 to go.

 

 

[FenrisWolf]

My mantra with Vindis is always in pairs or more.

[pedrogzc]

You need a pod with melta or perhaps two...

 

The problem with that list is the enemy could force you to deploy first, then sit just 30" apart and shot your vindicator to pieces. With melta pods you have another way to open transports or vehicules more than the vindicator.

5 WG combimelta in droppod are "just" 175 points, so you'll be able to add Jarl or another character with SV 2+ in one of your TWC units.

 

ahaha!! One thing I had misread... IP are independent characters. I imagine you plan to join IP in TWC. Don't you? Quite interesting build.

[Frater Cornelius]

Yeah, that is the point! Let him deploy. My Vindis can drive 12" and flat out together with TWC. If he shoots Vindis I am going to congratulate him because he will eat the full strength TWC charge.

[pedrogzc]

How do you plan to do cyberwolves?