Brainstorming: 'Assault-based SW' or 'the Meta-Killer'

[Frater Cornelius]

How do you plan to do cyberwolves?

 

What do you mean 'do'. Model them? I take Fenrisian Wolves and put armour on them. Armoured War Hounds or something. How I am planning to include them? Two IP take four each. How am I planning to use them? Eating challenges for IP and for Lo,S! shenanigans.

[pedrogzc]

:)

 

Yes, I mean model. What kind of armour? Green stuff?

 

Probably a bionic eye or even a bionic leg coud also do the trick

[Frater Cornelius]

Yes, I mean model. What kind of armour? Green stuff?

Probably a bionic eye or even a bionic leg coud also do the trick

Nah. I do not like to 'mutilate' my puppies like that. I will just armour them to represent the 4+ save. It will be a mix out of solid and liquid green stuff and either plasticard, tyranid chitin or other things I have lying around my place.

But to get back on track. A 1441 point list is right here:

Jarl

• Harald

• 2 Hounds

Iron Priest

• TWM

• 4 Cyber Hounds

Iron Priest

• TWM

• 4 Cyber Hounds

4 TWC

• 2 SS, Powerfist

4 TWC

• 2 SS, Powerfist

4 TWC

• 2 SS, Powerfist

Vindicator

• Siege Shield

Vindicator

• Siege Shield

1441 points

I need suggestions and inspiration for the last 409 points ;)

[pedrogzc]

I'll opt for the pod + the jarl

Or wg bikers with combi melta, remember that now they can assault the unit disembarked from a wrecked transport they shooted at.

[Frater Cornelius]

Slightly off-topic:

 

This freaking game will make a believer out of me. First, when I had tried and sold most other armies I was on the look-out where to go. I accidentally clicked on the GW website bookmark and see that the new SW codex is coming out and so I returned to my first army.

 

Then I decided to base them on Germanic folklore, which lead me to making a Wodan/Odin-themed Lord. Now I am trying to make a melee army and decided that TWC will be the focus.

 

And now, watch this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wild_Hunt

 

The Wild Hunt, an element I wanted to bring into my Company. What does it include? A lot of Horsemen, the Horsemen I now have because I am creating a TWC army. And what is the Wild Hunt connected to the most? Freaking Wodan, the model I made not knowing how relevant it would be.

Real world reenactments were made by Germanic tribes dedicating themselves to Wodan.

 

Every single piece is falling into place. A series of coincidences, or destiny? ;)

[knife&fork]

Vindicator

• Siege Shield

Vindicator

• Siege Shield

1441 points

I need suggestions and inspiration for the last 409 points

Are you sure about the vindicators? Considering the aggressive nature of your list they look like a workplace accident waiting to happen.....

Other than that what you really need is some way to demech from a distance, preferably in a way to explodes things. Nothing sucks more than just wrecking a transport and having the contents pile out on the opposite side of the wreck. Usually juuuuuust outside of LoS and thus robbing you of the assault.

I think long fangs are still good, you should be able to get two squads with lascannons and a ML1 divination rune priest? Personally I would find it quite tricky to decide my target priority if that was the case. They would also help greatly with different kinds of knights.

Some people would say that you need some anti flyer but I think that you have enough ground presence to ignore that aspect. No need to dilute that theme.

[Frater Cornelius]

I might take a Stormwolf if I fancy, but I won't sweat it. I do not see flyers as much of a threat by any stretch of the imagination. Flyrants might be tricky but hell, I've seen worse.

 

As for the Vindicators, I enjoy them. They are a great terror unit and not easily taken out by S7 spam. I haven't made any bad experience with hitting my own units yet. I just need to be extra careful.

I am open to other suggestions though, I just fail to find other pressure units outside of drop pods, which I want to avoid this time around.

 

As for de-meching, yes, this is something I thought about. The thing is, it is almost impossible to de-mech Eldar and Necrons from a distance because of those damn cover saves. So this will mainly apply to transports like Rhinos and Chimeras.

My problem with LF is that the majority of my army is going to charge forward, leaving the LF behind. They will become prime targets for outflanking and deep-striking. I need something that can keep up with the army. Also, I hate static units..

Vindicators can be swapped out for Predators. They are mobile, but their psychological value is very low. People fear S10 pie plates and they will divert fire on the Vindicators. Pie Plates also have the potential to avoid jink saves if it hits another target in addition to the designated one. Predators are going to be useless against massed cover saves.

But that is not the point. Vindicators restrict enemy movement because it forces him to spread and avoid coming to close.

 

So, what other options are there? Bikes can perform decently, but mostly rely on combi-weapons to do the job. I still have plenty room in the Elite slots.

 

I own bikes and Vindicators but I do not have any LF or Predators, so there's that issue as well.

[Blackwinter]

the thing about LF's  is if the opponent shoots them they its good because  they wil ignore your asaaulters. if they dont shoot tnem LF' s will kill from troops to MC's.

 

about flankers let them flank. while you are massacering his entire army LF's can be sacrificed. but im sure untill they die they will do some damage.

[knife&fork]

the thing about LF's  is if the opponent shoots them they its good because  they wil ignore your asaaulters. if they dont shoot tnem LF' s will kill from troops to MC's.

 

about flankers let them flank. while you are massacering his entire army LF's can be sacrificed. but im sure untill they die they will do some damage.

 

My thoughts exactly.

In my experience very little attention is directed towards your rear support units when you run an hyper aggressive list like this. Even if they do get targeted the 1-2 turns of undisturbed shooting you'll get can make a lot of difference.

 

 

Against eldar you already have the demeching covered by means of melee. Your LFs would be shooting at his wraith knights, perhaps with split fire on a single LC directed at a serpent if you think it will cause your opponent to jink.  

 

Necrons are awful in CC and have poor range, they look like a good matchup for you unless it's pure cron air and he's lucky with his reserve rolls.

[Frater Cornelius]

I am reluctant. I see the reason behind the LF and it sounds solid. But they just do not fit into a cavalry army! When you have TWC, TWM and bikes, why do you take heavy weapons. It does not fit the theme and the general idea.

This is more a reluctance based on feel and style, not crunch.

[knife&fork]

Then trim a small bit of cav and bring in dual storm wolves?

[Frater Cornelius]

Then trim a small bit of cav and bring in dual storm wolves?

For de-mech purposes you mean? Isn't that a bit much? I have no ways to affect reserves and to bring in 2 SW I would need to drop the Vindicators (and buy a second Stormwolf).

Let me throw you 3 different lists:

List 1 (2 Vindicators + 2 Bikes/1 Bike + 1 SW)

Jarl (Harald)

• 2 Hounds

Iron Priest

• TWM

• 4 Cyber Hounds

Iron Priest

• TWM

• 4 Cyber Hounds

6 Wolf Guard Bikes

• 3 combi-meltas, 1 meltabomb

6 Wolf Guard Bikes

• 3 combi-meltas, 1 meltabomb

4 TWC

• 2 SS, Powerfist

4 TWC

• 2 SS, Powerfist

4 TWC

• 2 SS, Powerfist

Vindicator

• Siege Shield

Vindicator

• Siege Shield

1811 points, 39 to go.

There is the possibility to exchange 1 WG bike unit with a Stormwolf (dedicated transport for first bike unit).

List 2 (2 Long Fangs + 2 Bikes/1 Bike + 1 SW)

Jarl (Harald)

• 2 Hounds

Iron Priest

• TWM

• 4 Cyber Hounds

Iron Priest

• TWM

• 4 Cyber Hounds

5 Wolf Guard Bikes

• 3 combi-meltas, 1 meltabomb

5 Wolf Guard Bikes

• 3 combi-meltas, 1 meltabomb

4 TWC

• 2 SS, Powerfist

4 TWC

• 2 SS, Powerfist

4 TWC

• 2 SS, Powerfist

5 Longfangs

• 4 Lascannons

5 Longfangs

• 4 Lascannons

1811 points, 39 to go.

Same as List 1, a possibility to exchange 1 WG bike unit with a Stormwolf (dedicated transport for first bike unit).

List 3 (double Stormwolf)

Jarl (Harald)

• 2 Hounds

Iron Priest

• TWM

• 4 Cyber Hounds

Iron Priest

• TWM

• 4 Cyber Hounds

5 Bloodclaws

• Flamer

• Stormwolf, Skyhammer

5 Bloodclaws

• Flamer

• Stormwolf, Skyhammer

4 TWC

• 2 SS, Powerfist

4 TWC

• 2 SS, Powerfist

4 TWC

• 2 SS, Powerfist

1741 points. 109 to go.

Please tell me your opinions on each of those (or convince me to love LF in a cavalry list ).

[pedrogzc]

I prefer firts one. Those 6 combi-fus will be very useful...

 

I will add some hammers, but just personsl taste.

Sorry, the hammers for the TWC, not the bikers. Od course

[Frater Cornelius]

I prefer firts one. Those 6 combi-fus will be very useful...

 

I will add some hammers, but just personsl taste.

Sorry, the hammers for the TWC, not the bikers. Od course

 

Fists and Hammer are the same, Fists cost 5 points less though (Hammers have a completely useless rule, which increases their cost: concussive).

 

Personally, I am split between list 1 and list 3.

 

I would actually play List 3 as a Wolves Unleashed Detachment for a chance to outflank with a Stormwolf and to get guaranteed reserves. Those 109-159 additional points I can muster are enough for a second mandatory HQ. The only drawback is that TWC will be WS4 and no PE in challenges. I am not yet sure if that is worth the guaranteed Stormwolf turn 2.

 

List 1 would stay COF because I have no reserves and having WS5 on TWC and Bikes is huge against most armies, almost enough for me to consider leaving List 3 COF and gamble with reserves (which is never a good idea but just so you can see how much a value WS5).

 

The main difference is that List 3 has the more reliable options to de-mech the enemy allowing for more productive charges turn 2, while List 1 has the superior pressure with a massive advance and higher model count, even though it has a not very reliable way to de-mech the enemy but a sure way to somehow disable the vehicles (crew shaken/stunned, force jink).

 

The one advantage of List 1 is that I own all the models while List 3 would require me to get another Stormwolf. I can see the appeal of both and something tells me that List 3 has some sick potential, even though right now I consider List 1 more aggressive with the superior pressure.

On the other hand, List 1 has time to de-mech turn 1+2 and is harder to shut down because there are more models and higher pressure. List 3 only has the TWC as a target and a SW is not that tough when you get down to it.

Both have their upsides. Looking for feedback on that.

 

Or I can mix both lists and get a Stormwolf alongside the Vindicators and bikes. Either 1 bigger bike unit + 1 SW or 2 minimal bike units (with 2 combi meltas each) but reducing 2 TWC packs down to 3 members. But that might be too unfocused.

I am not very convinced that 1 bike unit will make a big difference. 1 SW can play a difference. 2 bike units, even minimal ones, can be effective, but I am not prepared to compromise the main attack force of my army for them.

Looking for feedback on that as well.

 

List 2 is good, don't get me wrong. It can de-mech reliably and can pressure ground MCs at range better than both other lists. I am just not a very big fan of Long Fangs (and static units in general) and unless someone can bring a massive argument as to why they fit the Cavalry theme, I do not think I will use them.

[Bat33.1]

Well, I am using WHFB Chaos Knights as TWC, so almost half the price for 5 models ;)

"Chaos, Chaos? Burn the Heretic! Let him feel the kiss of our blades brothers"

 

On a serious note what do you see as an alternative to Knights that will carry out the same role in a list for those unable to take one?

[Frater Cornelius]

That is what were discussing here. Knights are not always legal on tournaments so I am posting a few ideas and lists for others to leave a comment about.

[tylerw]

With the vindicators (and your remaining points), and given that you have a great ability to pressure the opponent with a rush of cavalry, I'd look at a few different approaches:

1. swap the vindicators for predators, a stormwolf, a land raider, or some sort of allied TF Cannon - LFs would be fine here too, but I tend to agree on the general dislike for them as huge squishies. Basically, Vindies are great if you're slogging across the field rhinos and/or dropping in dudes with pods while the vindy moves up, but with only 24" fire, I'd think that something like the above longer-ranged options will give you the opportunity to pick off things that might harass your TWC, or just soften up a problematic target that your TWC are heading into.

 

2. some additional rapid assault options - a drop pod or 2-3, packing either melta/combi-melta units, dreadnoughts (I really like the idea of dropping ven dread(S) with the shield/axe combo as a great way to draw fire while you advance the cavalry, but ymmv)
 2a. Void Claw detachment - this fits in 3a too, but this would give you another mobile, dangerous, and somewhat tough option for sending in while the TWC move up onto the opponent.
 2b. I'm not sure how this would work out with you having infinite fast attack units already, but one 3-pod suggestion might be:

  2b1 - Murderfang+pod - he's going to be hoping to use the next unit (and its pod) as cover:
  2b2 - Lone Wolf in TDA, with something like SS + WC or SS+TH, with a fast attack pod that he's going to ride in

  2b3 - Some other dread+pod or lone wolf again with a fast attack pod (possibly with dual claws, as he's coming in on turn 2, not turn 1, so he's not the "designated bait" like the first Lone wolf)
 This would take ~ 350 points-400 points, depending on your exact build.  You could also throw missiles in the pods to help clear out blobs of small arms that would otherwise pick off your brutal TWC that is advancing.

3. spend the points on making your TWC outflankathons and a stormwolf or terminators or dread or something always come in on the start of turn 2 - basically, invest in the Wolves Unleashed requirements which will give a ton of options for bringing in dreads/TDA/stormwolf (not all of these, those are just units that feel like they'd be much better if you get to be certain you'll bring in on turn 2 and may have flanking - it's fine if you hate this idea!).

 3a. Void Claws might fit in this plan somewhere too, with their reroll bonuses, etc.  

 

4 - depending on how much of a WAAC tournament this is (I mean, this is competitive, right?  We're not just dreamcrushing casual events and so on?), you could also put the remaining 400 points into things that would complement a minimal-deployment strategy - I'm sure there are some weaknesses to this, but it may complement your outflanking cavalry, at least in theory, to chill with your vindicators (or other longer-range heavy support) in your deployment "corners" on turn one, then unleash the beast as your opponent advances or hunkers down - you have, at least in theory, a very mobile armor, so it feels correct to say that this should work well.

 

5 - what about a couple of rhinos (maybe more, if you wanted to "spam" a few empties, or something like 4 with 5 GHs each) with GHs, advancing in front of the TWC? Good luck to the opponent trying to get a clean shot at the TWC that you don't want them to get, right?

[tylerw]

 

I prefer firts one. Those 6 combi-fus will be very useful...

 

I will add some hammers, but just personsl taste.

Sorry, the hammers for the TWC, not the bikers. Od course

 

Fists and Hammer are the same, Fists cost 5 points less though (Hammers have a completely useless rule, which increases their cost: concussive).

 

 

 

Wait, is concussive really that not-good?  Does it interact with HoW, or no?

[Frater Cornelius]

Good post with some good ideas there. One think I am going to dismiss right away though: outflanking TWC is the worst idea ever. The idea of TWC is to get into melee ASAP. When you deploy you can charge T2, sometimes T1. When you flank you are charging T3 at best. I mean, you will have to weather one enemy shooting phase either way, so why deplay it.

I agree with point 1 the more I think about it. Less because Vindicators might blow my units up but more because of diversity.
Let me try to give my thoughts about the units in question:
Predator - decent at opening transport. garbage against serpents, average against necrons. I might consider it because AV13 is reasonably and it is mobile. It just seems to ineffectual with 3 shots that might miss. At least the Vindicator is a large blast.

Land Raider - Only worth it if you have something to put in and possibly run them in pairs. I do not have that. Moving on.

Stormwolf - I am still pondering if to put 1 Stormwolf in or 2 and what to drop for the Stormwolf. Usually I am anti-reserves but I feel that the SW might be a good choice.
The real question is 1 or 2 and whether to cut bikes or Vindicators to take it. And whether a flyers fits the theme that well.

2. I was thinking about drop dreads. The reason why I prefer bikes and Stormwolf is that they are mobile. Walkers can easily be ignored by the top armies. WS, Tau, Eldar and Crons just move away. It is good against TFC but those do not bother my cavalry. Slow armies like IG can tarpit them. Even Murderfang.
I only have 3 FA slot which are taken by TWC. The Stormwolves are dedicated transports. That is how they fit in. So TDALW do not help.
Voidclaws have the same problem as the dreads in my eyes.

3. Pointless.

4. I am talking about tournaments in general, so WAAC by all means.
Null Deployment is against what a TWC army stands for: Pressure.

5. Worth considering instead of bikes but go against my melee mantra.

Overall, good food for thought. You made me consider alternatives to Vindicators, which opens some new builds.

What I need now is opinion on Skyhammer Stormwolves (more shots, the melta targets are handled by TWC), and WG bikes.

 

 

 

[...]

 

Wait, is concussive really that not-good?  Does it interact with HoW, or no?

 

 

No, HoW does not use a weapon. If it would, it would be genius and worth taking the hammer.

[Blackwinter]

what about logan girmnar on storm rider?

 

i have never seen him in lists. but he seems pretty strong on paper. did you ever tried him?

[Frater Cornelius]

what about logan girmnar on storm rider?

 

i have never seen him in lists. but he seems pretty strong on paper. did you ever tried him?

 

Never tried him. He is little more than a glorified beat stick. I an spend 240 points on a Wolf Lord and get a more killy character. I'd rather avoid him and get more killy stuff.

[Rune Priest Jbickb]

After reading through your posts I think i have compiled what I would run. I brought in the greyhunter land raider to both get the banner in there as well as bring a bit more antitank and another big focus for enemy fire power. I think if all my math is right I am at 1845

 

Using champions of Fenris

 

HQ

Harald Deathwolf 190

 

Wolf guard battle leader runic armor, kraken bone sword, fell claws teeth thunder Wolf mount 160

 

Troop 185

10 greyhunters banner ccw all 185

 

Elite 350

5 wolf guard bikes 4 combimelta melta bomb 175

 

5 wolf guard bikes 4 combimelta

Melta bomb 175

 

Fast attack 450

4 thunder Wolf calvary 3 storm shields power fist 225

 

4 thunder Wolf calvary 3 storm shields power fist 225

 

Heavy support 510

Vindicator 130

 

Vindicator 130

 

Land raider 250

 

seems like it should be fast and hard hitting. I avoided the iron priest because I really question their benefit for the cost.

 

What do you guys think?

[SoulOfDragnsFire]

I'm going to step out of the lurking shadows here and post about the Outflanking Thunderwolves.  They have a purpose, it's just different from the normal usage of wolves (and much riskier, as you can't count on them being where you need them).   Currently, most of these lists have been built with TWC being the core assault force and everything else is in the army to boost them.  So your HQs are all mounted, and multiple well equipped squads of TWC + puppies to be the core of your army, intending to get shot at and weather a ton of shots before they do the bulk of your army's CC damage.  

 

But when outflanking, picture using them more like fast close combat scouts.  Your enemy has to account for them (and making your opponent question his deployment is ALWAYS fun) and when they come in on turn 2, chances are the rest of your more scary things (Murderfang? Dropped Termies? Etc?) are engaging the enemy from one side, and the TWC can come on and threaten a weakened side, or a rear guard, or most anything.  They don't need the storm shields to bounce wounds off because they aren't the biggest threat on the table at the time of their arrival.  Sure they will take a turn of fire, but if the army is built around a different core, then the fire they will take wont be heavy, and having a mop up crew of TWC coming in from a side can be quite effective.  And again, your opponent will have to effect his deployment to take into account scary wolves from somewhere.

[tylerw]

I like multi-melta just fine on Stormwolf, but the missiles do great work, and you do have an almost-excessive amount of ways to break a box open if you take MM on the 'Wolf.

 

Drop dreads, in addition to the "murderfang/axe you to bits" types, can still be a solid threat as a somewhat shooty figure, assuming we do something like a venerable dread w/ assault cannon and a drop pod with the missiles - it will up your costs quite a bit, but again, it's going to be a little harder for the opponent to just tarpit that combination, since both the pod and the dread are packing a solid anti-tar-pit punch.  Going with a murderfang or shield dread would be for holding the opponent's attention (I mean, if they tarpit that figure, are you really that upset, since that means they're wasting shots/tarpits that they might slow down the TWC otherwise?).

[Frater Cornelius]

@ jbickb: Not bad. My only issue is that this turned more into a mech army where the TWC are supporting the mech advance, as opposed to TWC being the centerpiece. This list is strong, don't get me wrong. It just contains a bit more mech than I would like in an assault army. As far as hybrids go, good start.

If I can borrow a LR in the store, I will definitely try this some day, when I feel like mech.

 

As for the IP issue: I consider IP to be superior to an equivalent WGBL. IP is cheaper, even with his pups and he only has 1 wound and 1 WS less, and the missing wound is easily balanced out by having the Cyber Wolves around, which is the main draw. Getting 4 ablative necrons into a TWC unit? Hell yeah!

 

@SoulOfDragnsFire: Well, that is an imaginative way of doing it. It might work well in another army that is not quite baals the the wall assault like this one is aiming to be.

 

 

I am still looking for comments on whether I should include 0, 1 or 2 Stormwolves in the list and what other units (bikes for example) you consider a solid support the TWC advance. We already had Land Raiders (which I think deserve an entire list for themselves) and Vindicators (which are not as necessary as I first thought). Anything else? Would you add anything else at all and just focus on Stomwolf support? Or are those extra few units needed on the ground at the cost of air support?