TWC, really that great?

[knife&fork]

I see a lot of people taking these, how have they been working out for you so far? I've used SW flyers and troops but not anything with fur, just faced them as opponents. 

 

Maybe it's because I usually have a strong counter charge element in my lists that I'm not seeing the appeal.

Sure they hit hard if they ever make it into combat, but aren't they a little too easy to kill? Even with storm shields they die just like regular marines if you use mid strength volume of fire, so a 200 pts lord in front to tank AP 3-6 hits is almost mandatory. And expensive as he is he doesn't do it as well as a C:SM bike master.

 

Don't get me started on the smaller wolves, unless it's a fearless unit they seem more like hazard than a benefit. Easy way to force a break test early on or lose combat on wounds even if you win on points. 

[Frater Cornelius]

That is something I have been asking myself a while now and I have come to a conclusion:

 

Taking minimal unit sucks. No way around it. Taking 3 guys and 1-2 SS is not the best way you can run them. Simple Bolter fire will be their death and given that you hit on 4s (3s if COF) most of the time, their mass of attacks will not be enough.

 

If you want them to be good, you need to invest around 200 points into them and take at least 4 members. Having a character tank up front is very good as well, especially if said character can bring ablative wounds like Fenrisian/Cyber Wolves.

Half the unit should get a SS and 1 non-SS member should get a special weapon. That way you can save points and still be effective with proper positioning.

 

There is a learning curve to it. Positioning of the units and models within the unit is tremendously important. Lo,S! shenanigans are very important to reduce incoming damage. Also is knowing when it's better to charge and when to leave it.

 

TL,DR:

Too fragile in small/minimal units.

Will become a massive threat if sufficient points are invested, just do not go overboard

 

In the end, they are still my favourite unit in the codex (and have been for a few years now). They are very strong but do not expect to buy a blob a win right of the bat. There is finesse to it ;)

[skeletoro]

Why would you put a lord out front to tank? That would indeed be a waste of points, I think.

 

I did the arithmetic in another thread somewhere and I think that TWC came out to be generally as survivable or moreso than marines, point for point. They stand up quite well vs shooting.

 

E.g vs a bolter, a TWC will on average suck up about 18 hits. A marine will take about 6 to kill. So, point for point, pretty good.

[skeletoro]

Well Immersturm, those 3 TWC are about as tough as a tactical squad (depending on what they are being hit by). I'm inclined to agree that 4 models would be better. Or 3 plus an iron priest. Fenrisian/cyberwolves mainly as ablative wounds for ID attacks in particular.

[Frater Cornelius]

No, Lord and IP is not a waste of points because he does not soak up all the shots. If there are hard hitting ID shots you Lo,S! to your Fenrisian Wolves. If you have massed bolter shots, you Lo,S! some shots. A 2+ save will hold a lot, even more so if supported by a 3+/4+ save behind him. It's less 'tanking' and more 'wound distribution'. That's why I said, there is an art to it :D

Just as a strait up tank it's too expensive, I agree.

[knife&fork]

That is something I have been asking myself a while now and I have come to a conclusion:

 

Taking minimal unit sucks. No way around it. Taking 3 guys and 1-2 SS is not the best way you can run them. Simple Bolter fire will be their death and given that you hit on 4s (3s if COF) most of the time, their mass of attacks will not be enough.

 

If you want them to be good, you need to invest around 200 points into them and take at least 4 members. Having a character tank up front is very good as well, especially if said character can bring ablative wounds like Fenrisian/Cyber Wolves.

 

That's actually a similar setup to the units I've faced so far. 4-5 with various wargear, with and without lord.

They just make for such nice targets for early game mid strength shooting, specially turn 1-2. I've usually shot them up a bit to bring them down in size and then rolled out my counter charge elements. At that point the SW player either face them down and gets killed or runs off and tries to do something else with the remaining wolf/wolves. 

 

These have all been what you would call combined arms lists. I'm thinking that TWC probably works best in a list with a really strong alpha strike? If I had been up against a list with more than 1-2 pods it would have been much harder to divert firepower to deal with the TWC early on.

 

 

Why would you put a lord out front to tank? That would indeed be a waste of points, I think.

 

I did the arithmetic in another thread somewhere and I think that TWC came out to be generally as survivable or moreso than marines, point for point. They stand up quite well vs shooting.

 

E.g vs a bolter, a TWC will on average suck up about 18 hits. A marine will take about 6 to kill. So, point for point, pretty good.

 

When you put a lot of mid strength (S5-7) fire into thunder wolves they melt away rather quickly. A lord with a 2+ makes you work a lot harder to put wounds on the unit plus the SW player can play wound allocation shenanigans by having multiple models in base contact with the lord.

So with lord in front you either try to get at them from a different angle so the lord can't tank, or you need to dedicate the serious anti AV/monster fire power to deal with them.

[skeletoro]

In my opinion it's just too risky most of the time and if he finds himself in a challenge he may regret it. That 200 point lord is paying twice as many points for each one of his wounds.

 

 

... actually now that I think of it, with the extra wound in the new codex and the slight drop in cost it isn't quite as bad as it used to be, if costs are sufficiently low and he has a 2+ save. Even still I probably wouldn't do it much, but hmm.

[Frater Cornelius]

 

That is something I have been asking myself a while now and I have come to a conclusion:

 

Taking minimal unit sucks. No way around it. Taking 3 guys and 1-2 SS is not the best way you can run them. Simple Bolter fire will be their death and given that you hit on 4s (3s if COF) most of the time, their mass of attacks will not be enough.

 

If you want them to be good, you need to invest around 200 points into them and take at least 4 members. Having a character tank up front is very good as well, especially if said character can bring ablative wounds like Fenrisian/Cyber Wolves.

 

That's actually a similar setup to the units I've faced so far. 4-5 with various wargear, with and without lord.

They just make for such nice targets for mid strength shooting turn, specially turn 1-2. I've usually hot them up a bit to bring them down in size and then rolled out my counter charge elements. At that point the SW player either face them down and gets killed or runs off and tries to do something else with the remaining wolf/wolves. 

 

These have all been what you would call combined arms lists. I'm thinking that TWC probably works best in a list with a really strong alpha strike? If I had been up against a list with more than 1-2 pods it would have been much harder to divert firepower to deal with the TWC early on.

 

 

Yeah, their second best defense outside of characters and Lo,S! shenanigans is numbers. There is a reason why I posted a list with 3 massive TWC units with TWC and TWM characters in my 'Meta-Killer' thread. 3 big units with ablative wounds are impossible to take down before they charge. Add other pressure units and the enemy will have too many threats to deal with.

 

 

Why would you put a lord out front to tank? That would indeed be a waste of points, I think.

 

I did the arithmetic in another thread somewhere and I think that TWC came out to be generally as survivable or moreso than marines, point for point. They stand up quite well vs shooting.

 

E.g vs a bolter, a TWC will on average suck up about 18 hits. A marine will take about 6 to kill. So, point for point, pretty good.

 

When you put a lot of mid strength (S5-7) fire into thunder wolves they melt away rather quickly. A lord with a 2+ makes you work a lot harder to put wounds on the unit plus the SW player can play wound allocation shenanigans by having multiple models in base contact with the lord.

So with lord in front you either try to get at them from a different angle so the lord can't tank, or you need to dedicate the serious anti AV/monster fire power to deal with them.

 

 

This guy gets it! Get him some ale! Or whine. Or whatever Blood Angels drink :D

[skeletoro]

Does LoS not follow the same rules for 'closest model' that exist for allocating shooting/assault attacks? In other words, is there no proviso that once the closest model is determined, it remains the closest until dead?

 

Did a quick skim and didn't see mention of it, though it seems strange for it to be omitted for Los and included everywhere else? Shenanigans indeed.

 

Shenanigans aside though... you say a 2+ lord makes you work a lot harder. Let's do some quick calculations.

 

Assuming you've kept points costs very low and spent 200 on your lord, he's 5x more expensive than a plain old TWC model.

 

His armour doubles his durability vs AP4+, makes his much more durable vs AP3 and does nothing vs AP2. He has double the wounds. So, vs. a heavy bolter, say, he's as tough as four TWC but costs as much as five.

 

Were you referring specifically to ap3 attacks? He's a smidgen more cost effective vs ap3 than a storm shield TWC, but there's not a lot in it.

 

Back to shenanigans... how many models were you planning on putting in base to base with the lord? I'd be worried about blasts; presumably you only do this when your opponent lacks nasty blasts.

[knife&fork]

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Shifting wounds to different models from the same wound pool is a little sketchy. But I don't think anyone would object when you do it from different rounds of shooting during the same turn? At least if they really are in b2b with the lord.

I agree TWC can be powerful when spammed, but I wouldn't just throw a unit of them into any list. They are far from a no-brainer. Which is a good thing really.

This guy gets it! Get him some ale! Or whine. Or whatever Blood Angels drink

http://youtu.be/ojgy7kyNp5g?t=58s

[Frater Cornelius]

When 2 models are in base contact with a third one, they are inarguably both equally close. The 'use model until death' rule is for melee IIRC. No mention of Lo,S.

 

It's an art ;)

[FenrisWolf]

No, Lord and IP is not a waste of points because he does not soak up all the shots. If there are hard hitting ID shots you Lo,S! to your Fenrisian Wolves. If you have massed bolter shots, you Lo,S! some shots. A 2+ save will hold a lot, even more so if supported by a 3+/4+ save behind him. It's less 'tanking' and more 'wound distribution'. That's why I said, there is an art to it

Just as a strait up tank it's too expensive, I agree.

This is going to be in your tactica too, right? Helping us who have fewer games under our belt learn?

[skeletoro]

It's for mêlée. And shooting. And random allocation. I see it all over the place but you may be right that it's omitted from Lo,S.

[The Rose Princes]

as i run it, all TWC/TWM, the fighting potential is so immense so once ANY unit makes it into combat, it's pretty much considered a wipe. added that Harald gives his Leadership in 12" and all Beat/Cavalry units across the table Stubborn, i have yet had a unit flee from shooting loses in 7th.

but only adding 1 or 2 minimum units are not the way to go with TWC... you need that unit to hit like an iron brick shot through a rail gun; if you went with a unit of 6 naked and bare bones that would still give you the impact you need for under 200 points. test it out, see what you think.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Shifting wounds to different models from the same wound pool is a little sketchy. But I don't think anyone would object when you do it from different rounds of shooting during the same turn? At least if they really are in b2b with the lord.

I agree TWC can be powerful when spammed, but I wouldn't just throw a unit of them into any list. They are far from a no-brainer. Which is a good thing really.

This guy gets it! Get him some ale! Or whine. Or whatever Blood Angels drink

http://youtu.be/ojgy7kyNp5g?t=58s

i don't get it.... what does he drink, then?
/blonde

[knife&fork]

It's for mêlée. And shooting. And random allocation. I see it all over the place but you may be right that it's omitted from Lo,S.

 

I actually made a little brain fart here, prolly got 6th and 7th ed rules mixed up. 

 

LoS! Is made for any model within 6" and on a wound basis, so it's really easy to shift the wounds out. Closest doesn't even factor in anymore.

[skeletoro]

Yeah Rose, that's the other thing I meant to say: with their damage potential and speed, you really need to kill a lot of them turn 1. Killing 20/60 tacticals in the first turn may win you the game but killing 7/20 TWC? You're gonna need some extra tricks up your sleeve to survive the incoming slobberfest.

[skeletoro]

Knife, I'm looking at the rulebook and it says 'determine which model is closest to the character, and allocate the wound to that character instead.'

 

Now, I am wondering if there is a general principle elsewhere that I've missed regarding determining closest model for wound allocation... because it seems like in most or all other scenarios, once a model is 'closest,' it's closest until dead. If not, I wonder if we will see a FAQ eventually?

[knife&fork]

Knife, I'm looking at the rulebook and it says 'determine which model is closest to the character, and allocate the wound to that character instead.'

 

 

Are you looking at the section describing LoS rolls with multiple characters involved?

[skeletoro]

No, I just suck at transcribing and should really get some sleep. replace the second 'character' in my previous quote with 'model.'

Until tomorrow ;)

[Frater Cornelius]

No, Lord and IP is not a waste of points because he does not soak up all the shots. If there are hard hitting ID shots you Lo,S! to your Fenrisian Wolves. If you have massed bolter shots, you Lo,S! some shots. A 2+ save will hold a lot, even more so if supported by a 3+/4+ save behind him. It's less 'tanking' and more 'wound distribution'. That's why I said, there is an art to it

Just as a strait up tank it's too expensive, I agree.

This is going to be in your tactica too, right? Helping us who have fewer games under our belt learn?

Hm, I might put it in somewhere. Right now I was focusing on unit compositions and army strategies. I might be able to throw this in when I go over Death Stars and TWC based armies.

[Frater Cornelius]

i don't get it.... what does he drink, then?

/blonde

 

Let Powerwolf explain:

 

[DanPesci]

 

 

Don't get me started on the smaller wolves, unless it's a fearless unit they seem more like hazard than a benefit. Easy way to force a break test early on or lose combat on wounds even if you win on points. 

 

They have their uses ie They can function as a good wolf lord delivery system. Also, having them hold back, they can make for a useful, cheap counterattack unit.

 

Yes they get whittled down quickly, but whilst your wasting your shooting on killing my dogs, your not shooting my marines..and you need to shoot those dogs...because if they get the charge turn 2 without being whittled down, they can put out some hurt in combat

 

I once went through 4 squads of deathwing terminators in one game, with a wolf lord and 15 FW, kept getting charge...hitting before them on initiative, and killing enough the first round of combat due to sheer wound numbers that by the time they hit back, they were rarely doing any damage (or hitting the lord, who had a stormshield and parried everything). Id then wipe the unit in the opponents turn, leaving me free to rinse and repeat in my own turn.

 

Now obviously, that isnt going to happen every game haha, but, they can be good. For me the issue is these days with the TWC points drop, you are probably better off with TWC in those fast attack slots rather than FW. 

 

 

Back on topic...

 

The new TWC i really like, only game of 7th ive played took 4 of them (4xSS 1xWC 1xTH) and they more than made their points back, ate a vindicator, a command squad, and a full tactical squad over 2 turns of combat, only losing 1 TW in the process).

[Frater Cornelius]

 

 

 

Don't get me started on the smaller wolves, unless it's a fearless unit they seem more like hazard than a benefit. Easy way to force a break test early on or lose combat on wounds even if you win on points. 

 

They have their uses ie They can function as a good wolf lord delivery system. Also, having them hold back, they can make for a useful, cheap counterattack unit.

 

Yes they get whittled down quickly, but whilst your wasting your shooting on killing my dogs, your not shooting my marines..and you need to shoot those dogs...because if they get the charge turn 2 without being whittled down, they can put out some hurt in combat

 

I once went through 4 squads of deathwing terminators in one game, with a wolf lord and 15 FW, kept getting charge...hitting before them on initiative, and killing enough the first round of combat due to sheer wound numbers that by the time they hit back, they were rarely doing any damage (or hitting the lord, who had a stormshield and parried everything). Id then wipe the unit in the opponents turn, leaving me free to rinse and repeat in my own turn.

 

Now obviously, that isnt going to happen every game haha, but, they can be good. For me the issue is these days with the TWC points drop, you are probably better off with TWC in those fast attack slots rather than FW. 

 

 

Or just have Harald nearby to give Stubborn and Ld10 ;) A 'must take' in a Cavalry/Beast Centric list the more I think about it.

[eyeslikethunder]

I had my thunder wolves kill 120 orks in one game

 

Ive seen them survive untold fire storms using look our sir and collected the eldar and tau tears in the process

[Rift Blade]

TWC are really good if used properly. Minimum packs don't cut it & they are not a Death star unit unless you spend a lot of pts & then you pretty much have all your eggs in one basket. For me, multiple units of 4+ TW's with a couple of ST.Sh's followed up by a pack or two of infantry works pretty good. The TWC pin the unit in place for the infantry to catch up & consolidate. These guys are gonna be shot no matter what so be aggressive your 1st turn. Run & make sure your in position to charge something turn 2. Use sight blocking terrain when you can but ideally you should be in CC turn 2. You can even use these guys to herd your opponent into the guns of the rest of your army or give up objectives. The hard part with TWC is to have plan supporting them & not just using them & then following through with it. TWC on their own are no different then anything else. They're not to hard to kill. TWC as part of an army & more importantly part of a plan or strategy is something completely different.

 

All this being said, I've only got 2 games of 7th Ed under my belt but I've won both & used the same list to get a feel for the new rules. The list contained had 2 units of TWC(4-3 St.Sh's & PW each) & a WGBL w/ RA, St.Sh., TW & the Fangsword of the Ice Wolf. Both games I used the TWC to pin the enemy in place while the a pack of GH's came up in Rhinos  to dismount & finish the job & let the TWC carry on supported by the GH now in midfield w/bolters. My 2 cents anyways.