TWC, really that great?

[Jochteas]

Well I mean typically from what I've seen of list that's where the Iron priests come in to handle such things, I guess you could argue the IP won't always be there, so then is it worth the points to have the weapon just in case?

[skeletoro]

One curious thing about the argument that shred and rending synergize well, is that actually most things also synergize well with rending.

 

Rerolling to hit? More hits, therefore more chances to rend.

Extra attacks? +1 WS? Same deal.

 

Shred is cool but it's certainly not the only thing that interacts with Rending in this manner.

 

And assuming (not a minor assumption, but not totally unrealistic either) that you have Preferred Enemy and wolf claws against a t4 2+ target (ie a terminator), shred contributes nothing because you're wounding on 2s and rerolling 1s anyway. And the wolf claw model costs half again as many points and sacrifices an extra attack.

 

Weirdly (this goes against my opinion up until 5 minutes ago) the extra attack from a frost sword makes it better than wolf claws against t4 3+ or 2+, assuming preferred enemy (even without PE the extra attack and shred are pretty close to equal benefits).

[Jochteas]

You're not wrong, but I mean you only really will have preferred enemy on challenges. Not that its not useful but I assume you're in combat outside of challenges considerably more then in.

[skeletoro]

strangely, the character in the challenge gets the PE rule outright, so the whole unit benefits from it.

 

if you just meant that often you wont have a character in a challenge, I guess you're right. That does make it a bit of a tradeoff/gamble.

 

but even without PE the comparison is surprisingly close between a frost sword and a wolf claw.

[Jochteas]

Does that make the power maul better? Because if the Frost sword and the wolf claw are ~almost~ the same, and the Power maul has 1 more Str and concusive and is a 5 points cheaper buy with AP 4 vs wolf claw with AP 3 and shred ?

[skeletoro]

To be honest, it makes me question the worth of taking special weapon upgrades at all. Apart from fists (hammers if you want to pay 5 pt for a trendy look). And I'm thinking the iron priest pretty much has that department covered.

 

One and a half baseline TWC cost the same as a wolf claw or frost sword model. That means that they not only get 50% extra damage potential (which can be weighed against the boost the special weapon gives), they ALSO get 50% more survivability.

 

Against everything other than 3+ armour saves (and perhaps some vehicles or monstrous creatures) the frost sword and wolf claw upgrades won't boost damage by 50%, I don't think. Against MEQ, they will better than double damage output, so they do have that advantage.

 

But I'm really not sure it's worth it. I mean, perhaps if you were 100% certain you'd be fighting MEQ all day long and never anything else. But even then it's a trade off between survivability and damage output, and I've gotta say, I think the survivability is probably more precious.

 

None of these special weapons upgrades really make a night and day difference to TWC's ability to hurt things in mêlée - except fists. So I'm thinking it's better to just take as many bodies as possible with storm shields, lords and iron priests mixed in.

[Frater Cornelius]

My reason for Fists is that my Iron Priest might 1) die or 2) detach himself to go after another target and might TWC might be left without a proper answer o t5 multiwound or walkers.

[Jochteas]

If say you had 12 twc, and you went with just the basic set up, and forgoed wolf claws, you would save 240, that's 1 stormwolf or say 3 more twc with a PF,  with the twc, is (Base) 48 Str 6 shred attacks worth 48 Str 5 attacks and 12 Str 9 attacks? I dunno.

[skeletoro]

Yeah, fair enough. I think I'd take a single fist in addition to an iron priest in big packs. The other option would be minimum size packs, a couple of shields and an iron priest.

I can vouch for detaching the IP temporarily. I did this once to allow me to assault two vehicles with charge bonus intact, destroyed them both too! That IP is death on four legs, especially vs vehicles

One thing to keep in mind is the absolute (rather than relative) damage potential of the unit. This is really important for two reasons. First, if you're wiping the unit out already, what's the point in increasing damage? Second, assault results are massively influencedt by relative numbers due to the give and take nature of the assault phase. This is doubly true where initiative is heterogeneous. Have higher initiative? They only get to attack back with models you don't kill (so the best defense is a good offense). Have a lower initiative? Only those of your models that survive actually get to attack back (the best offense has a good defense as a prerequisite).

A unit of 6 bog-standard TWC in a COF detachment will kill ( 6 models ) * ( 6 attacks ) *( 2/3 to hit ) * (1/2*1/3 to wound and overcome power armour + 1/6 to rend ) = 8 marines on the charge, plus an additional 6*2/3*1/3= 4/3 to HoW attacks, adding up to 9 1/3 kills, on average.

If the pack leader gets into a challenge, preferred enemy multiplies those 8 HoW kills by 13/36, for a grand total of 12 2/9 kills, if I've calculated correctly.

Arguably this is enough killing power vs. MEQ, but an added power fist, iron priest or lord will make it approach overkill levels of power. At which point you certainly wouldn't be considering extra special weapons and may even consider cutting unit size a bit.

Would it be worth it to trade one TWC model for two frost swords or wolf claws? I don't think so, really. What 3+ armour save unit will you face that you need more oomph against? Bikers? I think TWC have the edge if they make it into mêlée (which means being survivable), but I think s10 fists would probably be the best choice here because it would bypass FnP and insta-kill Kor-Sarro Khan (whose i5 ap3 potentially ID sword is a bit annoying). I don't think wolf claws/frost weapons would be the answer here and anyway, the small boost in damage potential would be more than offset by the drop in durability.

When you make that turn 2 charge after taking 2 casualties, there's a big difference between having 4 models left and having 3 (or 2, if you really tooled them up) models left.

Note: thunder wolf cavalry with power fists are strength 10.

[knife&fork]

Arguably this is enough killing power vs. MEQ, but an added power fist, iron priest or lord will make it approach overkill levels of power. At which point you certainly wouldn't be considering extra special weapons and may even consider cutting unit size a bit.

 

 

What's wrong with overkill? That means you have some margin of error to help with cold dice. Killing MEQ is hardly the gold standard, what you need to consider is how good this unit can handle something like a wraithknight or imperial knight after taking a few casualties. 

 

You need numbers and killing power for a unit like this.

 

I would also never assume any number for HoW hits greater than 2, TWC are fairly bulky models. 

 

We should also consider the benefit of keeping upgrades hidden on squad members and having multiple characters in a unit. 

[Jochteas]

 

Arguably this is enough killing power vs. MEQ, but an added power fist, iron priest or lord will make it approach overkill levels of power. At which point you certainly wouldn't be considering extra special weapons and may even consider cutting unit size a bit.

 

 

What's wrong with overkill? That means you have some margin of error to help with cold dice. Killing MEQ is hardly the gold standard, what you need to consider is how good this unit can handle something like a writhknight or imperial knight after taking a few casualties. 

 

You need numbers and killing power for a unit like this.

 

See this is what I was thinking, the +1 str/Shred from claws is basically insurance that when your boys hit there will be blood.

[Remtek]

Battle leader in front to soak ap4+ LOS ap1-3 wound.

3 pods to distract.

SS/TH Lone wolf in a pod is 110 points that can't be ignored.

3 melta grey hunter pod squad

And some kind of dread in a pod

 

A flyer with 12 blood claws for the turn 3 assault or counter assault. 350 point'ish.

 

Edit:

A battle leader with Runic Armor should be able to soak 24-25 TL Autocannon shot's before dying. That's 3 rifledreads doing 2 full rounds of shooting to take him down. 

[skeletoro]

Uhhh, MEQ is close to the best case scenario for wolf claws/frost weapons. That's why I used it as a comparison case.

 

As I also said earlier, MCs may be another area wolf claws shine. Certainly not wraithknights though - shred results in 11/36 chance of a wound which is 11/6 times naked - but naked gets 9/5 times the attacks (taking points difference and two weapon bonus into account.) Claws do a 55/54 times the (points adjusted) damage of naked, but make the unit substantially more squishy.

 

Fists or thunder hammers, on the other hand...

 

And wolf claws are worse than naked vs the AV13 of a knight (assuming no FC, which does help claws) - of those 6s you roll to pen, you'll see 1/3 glances and 2/3 pens. Naked will get 3/5 glances and 3/5 pens after adjusting for points. And given they aren't AP1 or 2, pens = glances against super heavies, and naked does a tad more damage vs imperial knights... and is 50% more survivable.

 

Fists or servo arms, on the other hand...

[skeletoro]

I definitely agree that keeping upgrades hidden is a great idea, and I think that speaks in favour of having a small number of hard hitters rather than upgrading every model. E.g. 5 models, 3 shields, 1 fist, plus an iron priest. That's already a really expensive unit though, at the same price of an imperial knight! Wouldn't want to spend more than that (perhaps less)

[DanPesci]

Ideally if i had the models the way i would run would be

 

4 TWC - 4 SS, 1WC, 1TH, 1P.Maul

 

and id run two of these in one list. Good all round, can take on pretty much anything bar a land raider (even then the TH is gonna do some damage). The only reason for th ethunder hammer over the powerfist is that i really dont like the look of a powerfist on the back of a cavalry model.

 

Edit - Although id maybe swap the second squad to being all Power Mauls. Would look ace thematically, and with rending, should be able to deal with most things well enough.

 

Need to take a look at the cost of Iron priest though, as that 2+ save/cyberwolf buddies is probably gonna be great for soaking up some wounds.

[knife&fork]

The following looks best IMHO.

 

Base unit of 4 TWC.

Pack leader with SS, can tank challenges, can try to LoS wounds when needed to a 2+ model or fen/cyber wolf

TWC with SS

TWC with fist

TWC no upgrades

 

Attach either a tanky TWC lord or TWC IP, with some ablative puppies added

 

 

-------------------

 

 

This way you have multiple hard hitters including a hidden fist. Multiple storm shields to tank (and not tank) as needed as well as a really powerful character (the IC) and an expendable character (pack leader)  you can sacrifice in a challenge but still have the potential to survive and do damage against just about anything.  

[Jochteas]

Uhhh, MEQ is close to the best case scenario for wolf claws/frost weapons. That's why I used it as a comparison case.

 

As I also said earlier, MCs may be another area wolf claws shine. Certainly not wraithknights though - shred results in 11/36 chance of a wound which is 11/6 times naked - but naked gets 9/5 times the attacks (taking points difference and two weapon bonus into account.) Claws do a 55/54 times the (points adjusted) damage of naked, but make the unit substantially more squishy.

 

Fists or thunder hammers, on the other hand...

 

And wolf claws are worse than naked vs the AV13 of a knight (assuming no FC, which does help claws) - of those 6s you roll to pen, you'll see 1/3 glances and 2/3 pens. Naked will get 3/5 glances and 3/5 pens after adjusting for points. And given they aren't AP1 or 2, pens = glances against super heavies, and naked does a tad more damage vs imperial knights... and is 50% more survivable.

 

Fists or servo arms, on the other hand...

It might be unfair of me when I'm talking then, because i always assume a IP is around to handle the heavy AV units. The way i imagine it is, the Formation rolls into combat together between turn 1-2, but afterwards will probably split as needed 1-2 IP hunting after the harder targets and the 4 TWC going after the softer troops. Im not sure if that would factor into the idea with you, but i feel if im already dedicating so much AV crunch by having 2-4 IP in a group then i could space the points from the TWC.

[Frater Cornelius]

But you also have to consider mech lists, Knight lists (or other super heavies), other T4/T5 multiwound models or the simple fact that your IP dies. What then? I always have a fist on 2/3 of my TWC units just have that extra security.

[Jochteas]

Wow 2/3's? Really that high? I was thinking of maybe running groups of 4 TWC/2 IP, so you'd recommend 2 PF on 2 of them? What for the other 2?

[Frater Cornelius]

No, I mean 2 out 3 units. I run either 4 or 5 man TWC units and each unit has 2 SS, 2 units have 1 PF and 1 unit has a WC.

[Jochteas]

The other 1-2 guys just bp/cs?

[Frater Cornelius]

Yeah, they get a whole lot of attacks. Each unit is also joined by an IP with 4 Wolves and either a WGBL or Lord with 2 wolves.

[skeletoro]

K&f, that unit composition looks pretty good to me (as I mentioned above I was a little concerned that the load out I had listed was a bit pricy and yours is the same, minus 1 model).

[Fenhunter]

I played this sunday and the first time testing 7m Codex TWC.
They ate everything, Outflanking helps a lot with the issue of them being killed before making it to the charge, Stubborn too, this guys ate
1 Necron lord in catacomb Command Barge
1 Fragment of C'tan
10 Necron warriors and 10 inmortals in a disorganized Charge
Ran a 5 man full SS and one TH squad alongside Harald and another one the same alongside a WGBL with Runic and the Krakenbone
I lost just 1 body

[FenrisWolf]

Immer, do you give a SS to the cav models with the fist or wolf claw?