ultimate 1850 twc army?

[irwit]

Hi all

 

So there's been lots of twc based talk so I thought I would throw in my proposed 1850 champions on fenris all twc army list and see what you guys think. What to change etc.

 

Here goes

 

Harold

Twc lord, runic, shield, krakenbone

Twc lord, runic, shield, twin wolfclaw

 

Iron priest on twc x3

 

3 x 5 twc, 5 storm.shields, 1x powerfist

 

1850 on the nose.

 

Plan would just be charge! Iron priest at front of each unit to tank ap3 and up. Separate up depending on targets when I reach enemy line.

 

Full t5, ws5, strength 6min plus rending army that is very mobile has min 3 up save for everything and also never needs a leadership check. With abundance of strength 10 in each unit it can handle titans, land raiders, monstrous creatures. Also can work its way through horde and once in combat should be well protected from shooting if they split up correctly. If I get turn 1 I have 1 round of shooting to survive and I should be done.

Its a death or glory list that should be quick to play and look good on the board.

 

What do you guys think?

[pedrogzc]

Adding cyberwolves to the IP could be very useful. Also 3 wolf lord seems too much. You could put 2 wgbl or even canis

[irwit]

The wolf lords add 2+ saves to the units and lots of extra wounds. Also fenrisian wolves take unit board space and really just to wounds that the twc unit would just shrug off anyway.

 

They also can split off from the unit and still be very deadly and survivable on their own.

 

So when I said the plan is to rush forward that was probably an oversimplification.

 

Move forward as 3 units. 2+ saves tank at the front of the unit. Come turn 2 I should be ready for charging into combat after a 12inch move plus a run move.

 

Let's say there's a unit of tau that will basically get a free turns shooting at me with overwatch. I can split off the iron priest or lord to charge first, take the overwatch, then my twc unit charges in unharmed.

 

Or I can everyone e separate from the start and really spread my options. However I think an army like this is best taking one side of the board and overwhelming half an army then the other.

[SamaNagol]

Drop the wolf lords and load up on Iron Priests with CyberWolves. Much better value.

 

You do need some other stuff though. Anti Flyer, Backfield scoring, Skirmish Screen for protecting against tarpits.

[irwit]

Drop the wolf lords and load up on Iron Priests with CyberWolves. Much better value.

 

You do need some other stuff though. Anti Flyer, Backfield scoring, Skirmish Screen for protecting against tarpits.

So on the first point, the wolf lords are roughly double the cost of the iron priests but have double the wounds plus an invulnerable save so I don't think they are too badly coated compared. Also cyberwolves will take up too much space IMO. Twc bases are already huge.

 

As for the other points. I'm not sure what is going to tarpit 35 ws5 strength 6 attacks with rending and ap2 and 3 scattered about.

 

Back markers for objective, I'm playing for anniliation with this list. Back markers are lost points.

 

Finally with flyers plan is to just ignore them. Even heldrakes are not a problem as the whole army has 3++ invulnerable or a 2+ save.

 

I'd actually prefer to play vs flyers as it means less on the ground to have to take out.

 

Also for objectives I potenyially have 9 units that can score and they have a 12inch move.

 

Sorry if it sounds like I'm shooting your advice down. I am open to ideas but the poi t of this lost is death or glory. Take.out everything or die trying.

[Frater Cornelius]

I disagree on the Cyber Wolves. You can also hold so many 3+/3++ saves. I have even had a Lord go down from 15 pistols. Everything can happen and I would not take any chances. With the Wolves you pay 60 points for 4 4+ marines and 4 attacks on the charge. That is very good value. And once you have your Lo,S! game down you will see the value of Wolves as opposed to just tanking with a character.

They are also your insurance against ID hits.

 

Flyers shouldn't be an issue most of the time, you are right.

 

As for tarpits.. Melee is not shooting. You tend to miss a whole lot more attacks in melee than at range, especially with so many. It is true that a TWC unit can chew itself through 50 conscripts with minimal casualties, those 3 rounds they will be stuck is 3 rounds they are not killing other things.

Although you can avoid them because blobs are slow. Still, something to thin them out on the advance can come in handy.

[Rift Blade]

I like the look of the list & it suits your idea for it perfectly. But if it was to be used in a tournament, I would look at changing the 2 Wolf Lords to Wolf Guard Battle Ldrs. simply for fluff reasons & spending the pts on either wolves/cyberwolves. Otherwise, leave as is.

[Jochteas]

A few things;

First, with your world lords, unless I'm mistaken you can't take two wolfclaws and a Storm shield. Also you have ~ a lot~ of points in those 2 units, over 1/5 of your army cost in 2 units is pretty steep. Throw in Harold and now 1/3 of your list is 3 dudes. What my suggestion would be is to crack those wolf lords up. But what could you get for those 2 Wolf lords? Well, first you could treat yourself and your entire army and give your IP a full retainer of Cyberwolves, plus with the leftovers you could field 3 more TWC with shields and wolf claws (Because Rend + Shred is so awesome) and still have enough left over to field some Meta bombs. Suddenly your list goes from 7 units group, to 11 guys a group, and now that at least 1 has WC and 1 has PF so you can chose which one you want to Challenge for you (assuming you're doing CoF). I feel that on the battle field 1 TWC SS/WC + 4 cyberwolves would be more impactful than 1 twl,

[irwit]

Hi both

 

Thanks for the advice. Maybe I need to come around to cyberwolves. Its just that 15points just seems a bit pricey and they will take up a lot of space. Maybe I will switch things around however one advantage the lords have is that they can leave the unit and separate. So I can use them to tank on turn one charge and turn two separate up as needed to charge potentially 6 or more units in one round. I know a twc model with a claw point for point is better than a lord but he's trapped on a unit that is already going to wall straight over any unit anyway. Its kind of adding to the over kill.

 

Anyway, how about this then.

 

Harold with 2 wolves

Wgbl, runic, kraken sword, shield, twm. 2 wolves

 

3x twc iron priest with 4x cyberwolves

 

3x 5twc with shields and 1 fist.

 

Leaves me 50points left over.

 

Being honest the above list look now more deadly than the first but is minus a killer wolf lord who on his own would.be a huge cause for concern.

[Frater Cornelius]

A character is only as good as his army. There is a reason why I dropped my Uberlord in favour of Harald. Harald is a far inferior combatant, but his army buffs far outweigh it.

[Rift Blade]

Gotta agree with Immersturm. Harald's buffs for the army far outweigh what a single UBER Lord can do on his own. Your WGBL may surprise you with the bonus W from his TW & the 2 Fen Wolves to help out. The left over pts can be used for more wargear for the army or maybe drop a St. Sh. from 2 TWC packs to give you 80 pts and take 2 of your TWC packs to 6 strong each. My 2 cents anyways.

[Frater Cornelius]

Gotta agree with Immersturm. Harald's buffs for the army far outweigh what a single UBER Lord can do on his own. Your WGBL may surprise you with the bonus W from his TW & the 2 Fen Wolves to help out. The left over pts can be used for more wargear for the army or maybe drop a St. Sh. from 2 TWC packs to give you 80 pts and take 2 of your TWC packs to 6 strong each. My 2 cents anyways.

 

Ya man. Army wide buffs really scale well. I am currently playing Shogun 2. You will never guess what clan (I give you a hint, it's the one with the superior cavalry :D). I could work my hero's personal skills but the massive charge bonus he gives out to my cavalry is just priceless.

My point is, if you had 2 medium TWC unit and a whole lot of other units, you could take the Uberlord as a de facto third TWC unit. But with an entire army based around those guys you simply will gain too much by adding Ld10, Stubborn and FC.

[irwit]

You guys do know Harald is already in both lists?

[Jochteas]

Doesn't Harold only give FC and Ld 10 to those within 12'' of him? If he's running 3 groups of TWC then the other 2 probably won't get it. Though of course Stubborn is nice.  

Alternately (Crazy talk time) You can really go crazy and do something a bit out of left field. But I think could be fun and really give your opponent something to think about.

Okay so you have 3 units of TWC death squads. First scrap your WLBL, scrap 1 of your TWC units, and scrap 1 of each Iron priest's Cyber wolves (stay with me, trust me). Now what? Well first add 1 TWC+SS to each of the 2 remaining units, then add 1 more Iron priest with 3 Cyber wolves. So now you should have 6 TWC, 6 SS and 1 PF with 2 Iron priest and 3 Cyber wolves. These 2 'groups' would have a total of 14 models each and themselves very scary death stars. Now that you buffed the rest of the groups you have a pile of points. Here's what you do. Take Herald, and get his olé buddy and BWFF (Best Wolf Friend Forever) Canis Wolfborn.  Take those 2 dudes  (and with each wolf bringing 2 Fenrisian wolves) and stick them in a Unit of 15 Fenrisian wolves. Suddenly that unit has 19 Fenrisian wolves alone, each of those wolves have Stubborn, Furious Charge, Ld10, AND because of Canis they reroll all their to hit rolls in a phase in which they charged, so essentially when its time to throw dice, when your wave of fur and fury crashes into the flank of your enemy, you will get to roll 57 Str 5 attacks, and you get to reroll all the failures to hit and that's not even counting the two mounted leaders. Heck Canis himself with this set up alone would get 7 Str 7 AP 3 attacks with shredding and rend and rerolls on to hit. He would be great to challenge someone out quickly and load them up on wounds. And his normal downside of not having an invul save is mitigated by the literal sea of wolf bodies surrounding him.

I mean your revised list is actually pretty spot on I like it, and I think it will do well, but there are some other fun things you can do with Herald and co. and a massive blob of 19 wolves surrounding your wolf lord and wolf knight suddenly look like the best target. Which I mean leaves 2 units of TWC/IP /CWolves to do there business. I mean your enemy is having bad times if the TWC don't look like the best target.

[Rift Blade]

LOL!!! That's nasty & I love it. Well done.

[Jochteas]

One other thing now that I mull that idea over in my head, to make that Fur Death squad even more OHGODWHY, drop your 2 PF/SS TWC (I know it sucks, but you still have 5 twc and 2 Ip and 6 cyber wolves in 2 different units and your IP's will do what your PF could do but better). And add a Wolf priest, give him Runic armor, Balewolf pelt, and a bike. Now your 19 wolves also have Feel no pain (6) and the enemy unit is forced to make a fear check before you begin, AND your guys have preferred enemy unit type X all this with the Wolf Priest by himself is a pretty decent fighter. Adds up to 19 Furious charge, counter attack, Feel No Pain, Stubborn, Twin Linked, Ld10 wolves, WITH a trio of face smashing awesome individuals.

[Frater Cornelius]

If you can not get 3 big units in a 12" bubble, then you are doing it wrong. I could understand if it was 6", but 12" isn't even an issue.

 

As for the Star, it is not durable at all. 2-3 IP with 3-4 wolves each are the basis a TWC Star, along with a TWC unit.

If you use Fenrisian Wolves as a basis, you won't be able to get up to T5 and this unit will be decimated in 1-2 shooting phases.

 

Unless you can find a safe delivery method that Fenrisian Star will not be worth it.

 

If it does make it into melee, then it's awesome ;)

[irwit]

Correct me if I am wrong but all my units kind of already have preffered enemy? If using champions of fenris all characters gain preferred enemy in challenges. If one model in your unit has preferred enemy then this passes on to the rest of the unit similar to what happens with the wolf priest.

 

So basically as long as someone accepts my challenge the unit gains preferred enemy, correct me if I am wrong however:)

 

Also the wolf unit would drop my 2 expensive warlords to toughness 4 and that unit would basically attract all small arms fire as the wolves have no save and I have no 2+ save in that unit. So 1 in 3 wounds actually causes a wound. It would be beastly mind you!

 

I'm still insure between first and second lists. Are 12 cyber wolves really going to be better than a fully tooled up thunderlord?

[Frater Cornelius]

Correct me if I am wrong but all my units kind of already have preffered enemy? If using champions of fenris all characters gain preferred enemy in challenges. If one model in your unit has preferred enemy then this passes on to the rest of the unit similar to what happens with the wolf priest.

 

So basically as long as someone accepts my challenge the unit gains preferred enemy, correct me if I am wrong however:)

 

Also the wolf unit would drop my 2 expensive warlords to toughness 4 and that unit would basically attract all small arms fire as the wolves have no save and I have no 2+ save in that unit. So 1 in 3 wounds actually causes a wound. It would be beastly mind you!

 

I'm still insure between first and second lists. Are 12 cyber wolves really going to be better than a fully tooled up thunderlord?

 

They get PE (Characters). That means when your dudes are hitting other regular dudes they will not get their rerolls. Only when they are hitting a character and the pack leader is in a challenge. This can be beneficial when there is more than 1 character in the unit you are killing or when the character is the only one standing thus allowing you to hit him inside the challenge.

[Frater Cornelius]

There is one thing that bogs my mind. Do you think that an army consisting only of cavalry models can be competitive? I mean, I am splitting my head trying to think of what to do with leftover points but a solution would always be to get more Iron Priests, increase size of TWC and add another HQ. You think that could work in a competitive setting? I certainly have never encountered anything like it before.

[irwit]

Its like an army of demon princes or hive tyrants etc. Fast moving and beasts in combat with high enough strength to take out vehicles and monstrous creatures. However you also have an awesome invulnerable save.

 

Most units are only best suited vs another type. Great against troops but not vehicles. Or great against vehicles but not MCs. Lots of powerfist attacks are great against everything and they are mobile enough to get places quickly.

 

That why I struggle to lose twc for cyberwolves.

[Frater Cornelius]

Shame that Canis does not move the FOC anymore. Fenrisian Troops to deliver a killer HQ is pretty much what we need right now :D

 

As for TWC only, I could try it. I mean even if they will deploy as 3 units most of the time, they can potentially split into 7-8 units depending on how many HQ you have and saturate the field of multi charges and so forth.

[irwit]

OK so here's.one for the real maxers out there.

 

Champions of fenris allied with themselves.

 

Harald

Wgbl twm, runic, shield, kraken sword.

 

2xironpriest on twc

 

5 blood claws

 

4 x 5 twc, shields and a single fist.

 

So I now have 4 full units of twc with shields and a character for each unit plus 5 scoring troops for backfield objectives :). Comes to 1851 points but I'm sure I can find a point somewhere :)

[Frater Cornelius]

Well, it all comes down to the same in the end. A bunch of angry dudes on your preferred animal mount charge in and redecorate the place with puny Eldar intestines

Here's what I would do:

Jarl (Harald)

• 2 Wolves

WGBL

• RA, SS, Krakensword, Fellclaw's Teeth, TWM

• 2 Wolves

WGBL

• RA, Morkai's Claws, TWM (alternatively, SS and some weapon to make him more tanky as opposed to killy)

• 2 Wolves

Iron Priest

• TWM

• 4 Cyber Wolves

Iron Priest

• TWM

• 4 Cyber Wolves

Iron Priest

• TWM

• 4 Cyber Wolves

5 TWC

• 2 SS, 1 PF

5 TWC

• 2 SS, 1 PF

5 TWC

• 2 SS, 1 WC

1848 points

[Jochteas]

Idk, i feel like if i play TWC The Army I don't even pay attention to objectives and instead just try to completely destroy my enemies army and table him from the game.