The Ragged Knight - Spoilers

[daboarder]

the legions recruitment and creation of new marines has always been rather....smoke and mirrors, the dont lay it out, ostensibly because it likely varies from warband to warband, but also because they dont have to, functionally the result is the same regardless

[Karthak]

As I've said elsewhere, I prefer the heresy to be a military contest, and ToH has brought back the early 2000's feel to the contest between Chaos and the Imperium, where it's a war of broken souls. The use of the warp by the traitor legions in M30 only feels like a taste of what chaos can really do, and Talon of Horus makes it clear Chaos was waging a limited war for limited ends and the 13th Black Crusade is the

apotheosis of Chaos' power.

It's very exciting. Just don't forget some of us like the Imperium, and are fine with it getting wiped out, but we want to die screaming in defiance, not whimpering in fear.

I've used all my Likes in one day for the first time ever, so that post is going unLiked for now. But I was on my rowing machine earlier today, playing out the Abaddon/Sigismund fight in my head, trying to put it into some kind of order given I'll be writing the book soon.

The Imperium will give as good as it gets - and often better. Don't worry about that.

One of the things I'm looking forward to most is a similar theme that was showed in Void Stalker, when the Ultramarines and the Primogenitor Chapters showed up to hammer the Night Lords. The idea that for all the Chaos Marines' arrogance and exciting new tricks, there's still that sense of "Oh, Jesus, what the Hell's going on?" when they fight the Imperium's new aspects for the first time.

"Who are these black-clad, angrier Imperial Fists who are so great at one-on-one duels and why are they beating our heads in? It's like Sigismund's elite warriors became a whole Chapt-- Oh."

"How come the Ultramarines are predicting every move we make and reacting almost as swiftly as we act? Did they finish that book they were writi-- Oh."

"Holy Balls, who are these psychic knightly fellows armoured in silver and carrying force halberds who are literally deleting all our summoned daemons?"

"Jesus, who are these Blood Angels in black who keep eating our faces and shouting that they're Sanguinius?"

"What have all you guys been drinking while we were in the Eye?"

Are the 13th Great Company going to show up at some point? Given that Khayon is a former Thousand Son he's probably on their hit-list. Plus, they're a loyalist force waging war against the traitors in the Eye for ten thousand years without getting corrupted.

[Kol Saresk]

I disagree, we do know what happened to all the primarchs, even if its only "was lost in the eye of terror, but prophesied to return" changing that to "was lost in the warp and killed with the talon of horus" is a huge change, one that I do not welcome. as I said, its as bad as the BS mortarions heart business was and is a silly idea for all the reasons that abomination of background is.

Trust me, it isn't what you think. Finish the novel, and then let me know who pops up at the end.

[daboarder]

 

I disagree, we do know what happened to all the primarchs, even if its only "was lost in the eye of terror, but prophesied to return" changing that to "was lost in the warp and killed with the talon of horus" is a huge change, one that I do not welcome. as I said, its as bad as the BS mortarions heart business was and is a silly idea for all the reasons that abomination of background is.

Trust me, it isn't what you think. Finish the novel, and then let me know who pops up at the end.

 

Hey thats fine by me man, liking the book so far, even if the cynical part of me feels like segments of it are ADB lecturing us about his opinion on the state of the legions in 40k (a discussion we've done to death multiple times on this forum)

[Balthamal]

As I've said elsewhere, I prefer the heresy to be a military contest, and ToH has brought back the early 2000's feel to the contest between Chaos and the Imperium, where it's a war of broken souls. The use of the warp by the traitor legions in M30 only feels like a taste of what chaos can really do, and Talon of Horus makes it clear Chaos was waging a limited war for limited ends and the 13th Black Crusade is the

apotheosis of Chaos' power.

It's very exciting. Just don't forget some of us like the Imperium, and are fine with it getting wiped out, but we want to die screaming in defiance, not whimpering in fear.

I've used all my Likes in one day for the first time ever, so that post is going unLiked for now. But I was on my rowing machine earlier today, playing out the Abaddon/Sigismund fight in my head, trying to put it into some kind of order given I'll be writing the book soon.

The Imperium will give as good as it gets - and often better. Don't worry about that.

One of the things I'm looking forward to most is a similar theme that was showed in Void Stalker, when the Ultramarines and the Primogenitor Chapters showed up to hammer the Night Lords. The idea that for all the Chaos Marines' arrogance and exciting new tricks, there's still that sense of "Oh, Jesus, what the Hell's going on?" when they fight the Imperium's new aspects for the first time.

"Who are these black-clad, angrier Imperial Fists who are so great at one-on-one duels and why are they beating our heads in? It's like Sigismund's elite warriors became a whole Chapt-- Oh."

"How come the Ultramarines are predicting every move we make and reacting almost as swiftly as we act? Did they finish that book they were writi-- Oh."

"Holy Balls, who are these psychic knightly fellows armoured in silver and carrying force halberds who are literally deleting all our summoned daemons?"

"Jesus, who are these Blood Angels in black who keep eating our faces and shouting that they're Sanguinius?"

"What have all you guys been drinking while we were in the Eye?"

Are the 13th Great Company going to show up at some point? Given that Khayon is a former Thousand Son he's probably on their hit-list. Plus, they're a loyalist force waging war against the traitors in the Eye for ten thousand years without getting corrupted.

Honestly? I hope they're not. If only to prevent all the usual OP arguments from starting yet again. On the other hand though given how ADB has portrayed some other factions I've never had much time for, it would be interesting. So long as the story being told justified their presence and it was written in such a way that was realistic I'd probably go with it

[Tenebris]

... loyalist dying... it is always a good thing in my book. I think we should be allowed a moment or two of "being cool", afterall were are simply evil marines for GW but never "cool marines".

But yes, as anything that advances the plot it should be handled carefully, but in ADB I trust to deliver.

PS. the loyalists should die on their knees and quivering in fear... the cool guy is the evil one, at least in this part of the board

[Vesper]

As I've said elsewhere, I prefer the heresy to be a military contest, and ToH has brought back the early 2000's feel to the contest between Chaos and the Imperium, where it's a war of broken souls. The use of the warp by the traitor legions in M30 only feels like a taste of what chaos can really do, and Talon of Horus makes it clear Chaos was waging a limited war for limited ends and the 13th Black Crusade is the

apotheosis of Chaos' power.

It's very exciting. Just don't forget some of us like the Imperium, and are fine with it getting wiped out, but we want to die screaming in defiance, not whimpering in fear.

I've used all my Likes in one day for the first time ever, so that post is going unLiked for now. But I was on my rowing machine earlier today, playing out the Abaddon/Sigismund fight in my head, trying to put it into some kind of order given I'll be writing the book soon.

The Imperium will give as good as it gets - and often better. Don't worry about that.

One of the things I'm looking forward to most is a similar theme that was showed in Void Stalker, when the Ultramarines and the Primogenitor Chapters showed up to hammer the Night Lords. The idea that for all the Chaos Marines' arrogance and exciting new tricks, there's still that sense of "Oh, Jesus, what the Hell's going on?" when they fight the Imperium's new aspects for the first time.

"Who are these black-clad, angrier Imperial Fists who are so great at one-on-one duels and why are they beating our heads in? It's like Sigismund's elite warriors became a whole Chapt-- Oh."

"How come the Ultramarines are predicting every move we make and reacting almost as swiftly as we act? Did they finish that book they were writi-- Oh."

"Holy Balls, who are these psychic knightly fellows armoured in silver and carrying force halberds who are literally deleting all our summoned daemons?"

"Jesus, who are these Blood Angels in black who keep eating our faces and shouting that they're Sanguinius?"

"What have all you guys been drinking while we were in the Eye?"

Are the 13th Great Company going to show up at some point? Given that Khayon is a former Thousand Son he's probably on their hit-list. Plus, they're a loyalist force waging war against the traitors in the Eye for ten thousand years without getting corrupted.

Honestly? I hope they're not. If only to prevent all the usual OP arguments from starting yet again. On the other hand though given how ADB has portrayed some other factions I've never had much time for, it would be interesting. So long as the story being told justified their presence and it was written in such a way that was realistic I'd probably go with it

Well, they could appear. Yet I would handle them as hunted beasts that have to hide to survive a place and forces that hate them. There is probably no "hit list", just survival without glory or hope.

[Marshal Rohr]

 

 

 

I disagree, we do know what happened to all the primarchs, even if its only "was lost in the eye of terror, but prophesied to return" changing that to "was lost in the warp and killed with the talon of horus" is a huge change, one that I do not welcome. as I said, its as bad as the BS mortarions heart business was and is a silly idea for all the reasons that abomination of background is.

Trust me, it isn't what you think. Finish the novel, and then let me know who pops up at the end.

Hey thats fine by me man, liking the book so far, even if the cynical part of me feels like segments of it are ADB lecturing us about his opinion on the state of the legions in 40k (a discussion we've done to death multiple times on this forum)

Interestingly enough, when you write books for Black Library, you kind of get to write things the way you want them to be. What's even crazier is that when you're a NYT best selling author, your editors give you a little more wiggle room in your projects and trust you to write major books about big time characters in the setting.

[Blood Angel Scout]

13th Company could be limited to the Firetide/Radiant Worlds, unable to get into the depths of the Eye? (Struck by a thought of a group of marines taunting the wolves like kids at a zoo) but  hope to see when the Blood Angels come up against the Black Legion in greater detail, from Khayon's comments about their reaction to the Talon's presence and Mackan, even if it is where the BA take a hammering and it will be from the BL's viewpoint, would be interesting to see ADB's take on the events. 

 

The descriptions of how daemons were formed-created, were one of my highlights- the Ragged Knight being a key one but also a personal favourite was "a reflection of a knife that claimed a dozen lives", though in reference to the Ragged Knight and that daemons can't be killed, just undone- does this mean that Khayon can still use the tarot card to call it in future?

[A D-B]

eh, we're seeing a lot more "history" being thrown into the 40k unniverse by authors, for example there are pages discussing "frankish" relics in pariah by adnett, I'm not a fan, it seems concieted to think that anything at all of the last 1000 years or so would survive for another 30,000 years, let alone 40,000, theres just a HUGE difference on scale

 

Actually, that's one of my pet peeves, too. But there's a difference between, say (to use your example) "discussing Frankish relics" and finding a USSR rocket in Pariah, and going into the moments daemons are born. Khorne was 'born' in the Middle Ages, during the wars that took place there. Hearkening back to that isn't me throwing history into 40K. It's not relics from our time surviving 30,000+ years. It's Khorne's actual lore, and exactly how daemons are born - how Khorne himself was born - and the Ragged Knight is specifically a lesser echo of its sire, with a similar and more detailed genesis, like many of its ilk.

 

 

 

 

....I dislike the idea that ADB is changing the history of 40k

 

I'm not changing the history of 40K. Don't worry.

 

 

 

 

 

I disagree, we do know what happened to all the primarchs, even if its only "was lost in the eye of terror, but prophesied to return" changing that to "was lost in the warp and killed with the talon of horus" is a huge change, one that I do not welcome. as I said, its as bad as the BS mortarions heart business was and is a silly idea for all the reasons that abomination of background is.

Trust me, it isn't what you think. Finish the novel, and then let me know who pops up at the end.

Hey thats fine by me man, liking the book so far, even if the cynical part of me feels like segments of it are ADB lecturing us about his opinion on the state of the legions in 40k (a discussion we've done to death multiple times on this forum)

Interestingly enough, when you write books for Black Library, you kind of get to write things the way you want them to be. What's even crazier is that when you're a NYT best selling author, your editors give you a little more wiggle room in your projects and trust you to write major books about big time characters in the setting.

 

 

"An opinion" (it's not an opinion, by the way, it's an explanation) "done to death multiple times on this forum" means it's something that 0.000001% of the 40K fandom will have seen. Trust me, I sympathise with you, daboarder, in terms of being weary of the same topic on here, but remember - this isn't me lecturing you on my opinion of something. It's a character that actually lives that life, going through all of it personally. I can't leave out the function and presentation of the Chaos Marine Legions just because you've seen me discuss it on a forum several times over the course of four years. It's an integral part of the process, and a massive part in their daily life and function, affecting almost all that a warband does.

[Marshal Rohr]

Khorne was born in the Middle Ages? I thought he was born before humans even existed?

[Lucien Eilam]

I think he means "from conflicts in ancient history", not the middle ages specifically.

[A D-B]

Khorne was born in the Middle Ages? I thought he was born before humans even existed?

 

Yes and no. Yes, because that's how the Warp works. "What has ever been and shall ever be", and so on. See also: Slaanesh, in terms of being the youngest Chaos God(dess), yet also having existed forever because of the Warp's function. Khorne has always existed.

 

But no, in terms of some really old lore that mentions Khorne as an entity gained sentience in the Dark/Middle Ages.

[Loesh]

Khorne was born in the Middle Ages? I thought he was born before humans even existed?

 

Technically speaking, all but Slaanesh was. He 'woke up' during the middle ages, Nurgle was the eldest but he didn't pop around until the bubonic plague roughly.

 

Slaanesh may of even had influence before the Eldar 'woke her up' if one could consider them waking up, it's possible that they have always been awake and asleep simultaneously,  it's the warp, it's all very confusing.

 

Edit: ADB beat me to the punch. :p

[Marshal Rohr]

I need to find those old books about the Chaos Gods. The 'Realms' books.

 

 

Khorne was born in the Middle Ages? I thought he was born before humans even existed?

Technically speaking, all but Slaanesh was. He 'woke up' during the middle ages, Nurgle was the eldest but he didn't pop around until the bubonic plague roughly.

 

Slaanesh may of even had influence before the Eldar 'woke her up' if one could consider them waking up, it's possible that they have always been awake and asleep simultaneously, it's the warp, it's all very confusing.

 

Edit: ADB beat me to the punch. :p

So does that mean no daemons created from the Battle of Cannae or Alexandria :P

 

 

Edit: Trying to line this stuff up is like trying to nail water to a board.

[Loesh]

I need to find those old books about the Chaos Gods. The 'Realms' books.

Khorne was born in the Middle Ages? I thought he was born before humans even existed?

Technically speaking, all but Slaanesh was. He 'woke up' during the middle ages, Nurgle was the eldest but he didn't pop around until the bubonic plague roughly.

Slaanesh may of even had influence before the Eldar 'woke her up' if one could consider them waking up, it's possible that they have always been awake and asleep simultaneously, it's the warp, it's all very confusing.

Edit: ADB beat me to the punch.

So does that mean no daemons created from the Battle of Cannae or Alexandria

Edit: Trying to line this stuff up is like trying to nail water to a board.

They probably were...somehow....like I said, it's the warp, time and space have no real rules.

[A D-B]

I need to find those old books about the Chaos Gods. The 'Realms' books.

Khorne was born in the Middle Ages? I thought he was born before humans even existed?

Technically speaking, all but Slaanesh was. He 'woke up' during the middle ages, Nurgle was the eldest but he didn't pop around until the bubonic plague roughly.

Slaanesh may of even had influence before the Eldar 'woke her up' if one could consider them waking up, it's possible that they have always been awake and asleep simultaneously, it's the warp, it's all very confusing.

Edit: ADB beat me to the punch.

So does that mean no daemons created from the Battle of Cannae or Alexandria

Edit: Trying to line this stuff up is like trying to nail water to a board.

There'll be daemons from those battles, sure. Those people's souls will have gone to the Warp, making them part of it, with their pain and suffering forming Khorne's existence, among other things. Their memories and torments form parts of (in this case) Khorne. He 'woke up' or 'became sentient' in the Middle Ages, rising as a specific malignancy from the Warp at that point. But he was there before, in gestation or slumber or maturation, whichever you prefer to think as he was ultimately 'coming together'.

[Loesh]

You know I always wondered, usually when the other Chaos Gods are described before their sentience I often hear gestation or maturation. But with Slaanesh specifically she/he/it is referred to as sleeping and causing terror in Eldar dreams, and a lot of his themes...like Keepers of Secrets being formed of his dreams, and the ability to put enemies into a coma like a demonic sandman.

 

Anything behind that? I figure it was always just an artistic choice, but it pops up a lot.

[Marshal Rohr]

The Ragged Knight really brought a new question to my mind, and something I think has been shaped by the limitations of the GW plastic ranges. Bloodletters, Daemonettes, Plaguebearers, and Horrors are the Daemons we automatically think of when we think of a particular god, but do they always assume those forms? The Ragged Knight looked the part, but didn't fall into the red skin and horns category of a Khornate Daemon. Would it be possible to have whole hosts of daemon armies that are not bloodletters, etc?

 

 

I ask because Im interested in including a daemon detachment, but I want to model them differently than the standard GW kit. Brother Heinrich made some awesome Daemonettes using the Dark Elf kits, and while Im not going for that conversion, I wanted a unique looking army. 

[A D-B]

Would it be possible to have whole hosts of daemon armies that are not bloodletters, etc?

 

Yeah, they'd technically exist in droves, but writing about them too much is something you have to bear in mind when you remember GW is ultimately a model company. The same reason the Heresy series started showing squillions of new things only once Forge World releases rules and models for them; it's not because imaginations are weak, it's because a certain level of professionalism means you're contained to some degree by what there are models and rules for.

 

The Ragged Knight (and the Exalted, in the NL series) are examples of those 'other' kinds of things. The former is either a wingless Bloodthirster or an extremely powerful Herald; the latter is either a massively mutated Chosen, or a very powerful Possessed. I like the idea of looking at a daemon and not knowing what it is. You can tell the Ragged Knight is Khornate, but he doesn't immediately pop up with a certain Weapon Skill or whatever, and announce he's a Herald or a Bloodthirster.

 

So yeah, there are nuances involed. Other 'choirs' of daemons will be all over the show, but the common ones are probably the majority for obvious reasons. I tried to make a Daemon army just before I started The Talon of Horus, but I abandoned it when I decided to save several the individual daemon ideas for actual daemon characters in novels, instead. I didn't want to waste them on the tabletop, then have people accuse me of including my army in a book.

[Marshal Rohr]

 

Would it be possible to have whole hosts of daemon armies that are not bloodletters, etc?

 

Yeah, they'd technically exist in droves, but writing about them too much is something you have to bear in mind when you remember GW is ultimately a model company. The same reason the Heresy series started showing squillions of new things only once Forge World releases rules and models for them; it's not because imaginations are weak, it's because a certain level of professionalism means you're contained to some degree by what there are models and rules for.

 

The Ragged Knight (and the Exalted, in the NL series) are examples of those 'other' kinds of things. The former is either a wingless Bloodthirster or an extremely powerful Herald; the latter is either a massively mutated Chosen, or a very powerful Possessed. I like the idea of looking at a daemon and not knowing what it is. You can tell the Ragged Knight is Khornate, but he doesn't immediately pop up with a certain Weapon Skill or whatever, and announce he's a Herald or a Bloodthirster.

 

So yeah, there are nuances involed. Other 'choirs' of daemons will be all over the show, but the common ones are probably the majority for obvious reasons. I tried to make a Daemon army just before I started The Talon of Horus, but I abandoned it when I decided to save several the individual daemon ideas for actual daemon characters in novels, instead. I didn't want to waste them on the tabletop, then have people accuse me of including my army in a book.

 

 

Understandable. I figured it would be a little more restricted because it needed to maintain coherency with the models, but if there are alternatives out there, then I won't feel bad about pursuing something besides standard models. 

[Loesh]

 

Would it be possible to have whole hosts of daemon armies that are not bloodletters, etc?

 

Yeah, they'd technically exist in droves, but writing about them too much is something you have to bear in mind when you remember GW is ultimately a model company. The same reason the Heresy series started showing squillions of new things only once Forge World releases rules and models for them; it's not because imaginations are weak, it's because a certain level of professionalism means you're contained to some degree by what there are models and rules for.

 

 

 

Yeah, I imagine there's a lot of artistic limitation in place as a necessary evil. Perhaps that's why I like Slaanesh so much, due to her focus on social matters and creativity as part of her portfolio she just kind of develops a bit more punch to her personality and her daemons by extension. Like all those references to sleeping, or the weird plant theme she seems to have, and how she seems to actively talk and interact with both mortals and daemons much more often in fluff to the point of sometimes appearing directly(To the terror/revulsion/adoration/all of the above of anything around her,) i'v gotten this idea at this point she's like a really metal/obscene lounge lizard.

 

What i'm saying is Slaanesh is an androgynous Richard Cheese.

[incinerator950]

These days professionalism is a stretch of a word to use, but I agree for a change.

[Loesh]

These days professionalism is a stretch of a word to use, but I agree for a change.

 

I used to be a big Warcraft fan, and I can tell you this: GW is five thousand times as professional.

 

Richard Knaak would give C.S Goto a run for his money.

[A D-B]

These days professionalism is a stretch of a word to use, but I agree for a change.

 

As exciting as yet more negativity is, dude, you're dead wrong. Adhering to the product lines of the company you're writing for is professional, and what authors are supposed to do, whether you think it rocks or not.

 

What happened to you, lately? You've always been negative, but you're so deeply entrenched in needing to post negative things in practically every thread you're in, these days. And there's rarely ever any basis or explanation for it; you just bounce in, say something sucks or that it was better in the olden days, then repeat it elsewhere in yet another topic on another subject.