Confusion about FAQs and their life span

[Happyfellow]

I started painting a deathwing army before I even knew what the standard of devistation was.  When I have posted questions about its use I'm being told that is only conforms to bolters (TL and hurricane) and not the boltgun category.

 

What I would like to know is are old FAQs relevent?  The issues was clarified in the 6th faq, but do players cart around all of the old FAQs?  GW doesn't even host them online from what I can tell.

 

Codex states is effects boltguns.

 

boltgun is provided in the brb as a group of weapons that includes bolters, bolt pistols, storm bolters, autocannons (IIRC) and a larger bolt cannon that I cannot recall.

 

I'm told that only the basic bolter is effected - which confuses me since it states that boltguns are effected.  Is the plural not important?  I think it is because the 3 that agreed are effected are actuly only one type of wepon  - a bolter (just in this case they have more tied together). 

 

I guess my main question is do old FAQs still exert their rulings when the newest FAQ is silent on a topic.

[Jacinda]

The 6th edition FAQ is no longer relavent. It may be helpful for finding a rule's intent but there are plenty of examples where the 6th edition FAQ was changed for a codex to intentionally remove some features. The CSM Heldrake being one example of this.

 

The new FAQ's are hosted on the Black Library site now. The most current version for DA is http://www.blacklibrary.com/Downloads/Product/PDF/Warhammer-40k/7th-faq/Dark_Angels_v1.0_May14.pdf

 

 

That said, boltguns are those weapons in the basic rules specifically defined as boltguns. Those are bolt pistols, boltguns, storm bolters, heavy bolters and the Vulcan mega-bolter. Combi-weapons fired as a bolter are also boltguns. Twin-linked Bolters (and by extension Hurricane bolters) are not on the list, nor does the twin-linked rule say a weapon that is twin-linked count as its base weapon. It actually says it has "greater accuracy" and therefore a twin-linked boltgun will have a different profile than a boltgun. Nobody plays it that way but, there it is in case someone wants to argue that point.

 

Bottom line ... there is a rule in The Rules that says Heavy Bolters are boltguns. Unless you can find a rule in a codex or FAQ that says differently, they are boltguns.

[Dam13n]

The old FAQ is no longer available for download, therefore it is obsolete.

 

The BWB does have a section entitled Boltguns (referring to Bolt Weapons) which includes the Boltgun as a weapon.

 

Now, this section also includes Bolt Pistols, Heavy Bolters, Storm Bolters and the Vulcan Mega Bolter.  It doesn't make sense to me that the Standard of Devastation would affect all those weapons, rather it only affects the standard Boltgun.

 

The banner affects the weapon called a "Boltgun", not the class of weapons under the umbrella of "Boltguns".

 

It also affects the Hurricane Bolter as that is described as "three twin-linked Boltguns fired as a single weapon".

 

This was the answer from the old FAQ, it is also the correct RAW answer even now that FAQ is obsolete.

[Jacinda]

lol

And good luck on getting everyone to agree one way or the other

[Happyfellow]

The old FAQ is no longer available for download, therefore it is obsolete.

 

The BWB does have a section entitled Boltguns (referring to Bolt Weapons) which includes the Boltgun as a weapon.

 

Now, this section also includes Bolt Pistols, Heavy Bolters, Storm Bolters and the Vulcan Mega Bolter.  It doesn't make sense to me that the Standard of Devastation would affect all those weapons, rather it only affects the standard Boltgun.

 

The banner affects the weapon called a "Boltgun", not the class of weapons under the umbrella of "Boltguns".

 

It also affects the Hurricane Bolter as that is described as "three twin-linked Boltguns fired as a single weapon".

 

This was the answer from the old FAQ, it is also the correct RAW answer even now that FAQ is obsolete.

The banner effects boltguns - that is the wording from the book.  I cannot locate anyting within the brb, or codex, that limits it to just one type of boltgun, or states it only effects the singular boltgun.  They are all boltguns, no?

 

It dosen't make sense to you, but that dosen't mean it is not how the standard should be applied.   I do not see how it is the correct rule as written since it seems to be such a sloppy mess of a rule, which leaves too much for subjective ruling. 

 

If effects Hurricans because they are made up of the boltgun (same with TL) and that boltgun is only 'one' type of weapon listed until 'bolters' (again, what the standard effects as per the codex)

 

I will be stuck playing as you describe as that is how the local TOs run things.  Do I think it is correct?  No way.  It seems arbitray at best. If something effects X, and then you look up X you find that X is comprised of X, Y and Z then the effect should work for all. 

 

Thanks for the replies, though.  Coming back into the game after a long break and I can still see that editors need more game time at the table.

[Leonaides]

it uses the plural because it affects more than 1 boltgun (ie every boltgun within its area of effect). Otherwise you cna guarantee that people would be argueing that it only works for 1 single model.

[Jacinda]

They really need to change the basic rules category to Bolt Weapons. Having a specific weapon with the same name as its general category just invites confusion.

[Happyfellow]

Yeah, I can see that.  Why u list moar things as bolters?!

 

I guess I should expect this sort of thing.  Been dealing with GW on and off for a long time.

[Dam13n]

If you look at the Dark Angels codex, page 69 lists "Boltgun" in the list of BWB ranged weapons.
The same page also lists the Hurricane Bolter as three twin-linked boltguns.
 
Yes the BWB has a section of weapons entitled boltguns, which includes the Boltgun weapon.
It is that specific weapon that is being referred to by the standard of devastation.
 
Now by your argument you could say that a Hurricane Bolter actually is made up of three twin-linked Vulcan Mega-bolters as they are "Boltguns" in the same way that a an actual Boltgun is, however this is blatantly untrue, we only need look at the weapon to see what they are referring to as "Boltguns".
 
When GW refer to a Boltgun, it's the specific weapon, not the weapon class, they are referring to.  This is true in all cases.  That they named the weapon class "Boltguns" is neither here nor there.  The weapon class should have been "Bolt Weapons" in order to make this simple for everybody, but it isn't.  So common sense has to be used.
 
The FAQ is no longer helpful, because the updated the errata and removed all the actual FAQ answers, which was rather a poor decision, retrospectively.  However, the old FAQ (whilst obsolete) does set the precedent for what the answer would be, should it be posed to them again.

[Happyfellow]

I disagree.  Boltguns, by using common sense, is an acceptable way to refer to anything firing a bolt. You can say rifles - but there are many different types of rifles, no? 

 

In this case the pistol, bolter, storm, have the same str/ap (again, iirc.  just coming back to the table) the only difference is the type. One is a pistol/one assult/one rapid fire.  Type should not really matter since a TL bolter is a differnt type with the addition of TL, but the effect still applies.  I do not have the rules history to draw a line back to 6th ed.  I am just relying on what is provide purley from the codex and main book.

 

The example with the vulcan bolters dosen't hold up, to me, for the following:

The definition of what a boltgun is presented.  On that same page they cover the definition of a hurricane bolter, which is multiple bolters.  in the context of the page it is clear.  More than one boltgun.  In context of the main book the above listed guns are all called boltguns, specifcally.

 

 

Thanks again for the reply. Looks like I'll be dropping a base like tac squad with the deathwing.  40 shots for one turn 'should' do something!

[Raeven]

If you look at the Dark Angels codex, page 69 lists "Boltgun" in the list of BWB ranged weapons.

The same page also lists the Hurricane Bolter as three twin-linked boltguns.

 

Yes the BWB has a section of weapons entitled boltguns, which includes the Boltgun weapon.

It is that specific weapon that is being referred to by the standard of devastation.

 

Now by your argument you could say that a Hurricane Bolter actually is made up of three twin-linked Vulcan Mega-bolters as they are "Boltguns" in the same way that a an actual Boltgun is, however this is blatantly untrue, we only need look at the weapon to see what they are referring to as "Boltguns".

 

When GW refer to a Boltgun, it's the specific weapon, not the weapon class, they are referring to.  This is true in all cases.  That they named the weapon class "Boltguns" is neither here nor there.  The weapon class should have been "Bolt Weapons" in order to make this simple for everybody, but it isn't.  So common sense has to be used.

 

The FAQ is no longer helpful, because the updated the errata and removed all the actual FAQ answers, which was rather a poor decision, retrospectively.  However, the old FAQ (whilst obsolete) does set the precedent for what the answer would be, should it be posed to them again.

Until the BWB, when GW referred to the specific weapon, they called it a Bolter.  Boltgun has always been the title for the category of weapons that include bolt pistols, bolters, etc.

 

This was the cause for the FAQ in the first place.

I'd also say, previous FAQ's have zero bearing on a current reading of the rules.

[Happyfellow]

I think it would be best for rules to be viewed as it the reviewer was a new player.  People in general are to vested in old editions to completely toss out their knowledge and relearn something.  Fluff and history should not come into play with rules.  Fluff and history are too inconsistent to be relied upon.

[Kristoff]

Until the BWB, when GW referred to the specific weapon, they called it a Bolter.  Boltgun has always been the title for the category of weapons that include bolt pistols, bolters, etc.

 

This was the cause for the FAQ in the first place.

Um... I would hardly call less than 2 years of a 6th iteration of the game as "always". Weapons weren't defined in the rulebook in previous game versions.

 

I'd also say, previous FAQ's have zero bearing on a current reading of the rules.

They can provide some precedence, but only if a newer FAQ doesn't counter it and one can provide it. But outside that, agreed.

[Happyfellow]

 

Until the BWB, when GW referred to the specific weapon, they called it a Bolter.  Boltgun has always been the title for the category of weapons that include bolt pistols, bolters, etc.

 

This was the cause for the FAQ in the first place.

Um... I would hardly call less than 2 years of a 6th iteration of the game as "always". Weapons weren't defined in the rulebook in previous game versions.

 

I'd also say, previous FAQ's have zero bearing on a current reading of the rules.

They can provide some precedence, but only if a newer FAQ doesn't counter it and one can provide it. But outside that, agreed.

 

Are you relying on 3rd faqs for rulings?  Each ed. seems to be a new game, IMO.

 

By removing the restriction of something it changes the prior position.  The reason being, is that the FAQs are to alter to rules as provided.  If there's nothing to note or change then simply connecting the dots is enough to come up with the answer.  Novels, old editions and old faqs do not have any bearing on new editions.  Fluff is a huge thing that I see people use to argue their positions for rulings. 

[Kristoff]

 

They can provide some precedence, but only if a newer FAQ doesn't counter it and one can provide it. But outside that, agreed.

 

Are you relying on 3rd faqs for rulings? Each ed. seems to be a new game, IMO.

 

By removing the restriction of something it changes the prior position. The reason being, is that the FAQs are to alter to rules as provided. If there's nothing to note or change then simply connecting the dots is enough to come up with the answer. Novels, old editions and old faqs do not have any bearing on new editions. Fluff is a huge thing that I see people use to argue their positions for rulings.

FAQs do not change the rules, Errata's and Amendments do. What FAQs are is to guide the intention that the developers had in mind when they wrote them and how they "House Rule" it themselves.

 

But as I said, they can provide precedence to see what they were originally headed. This is useful for when the rules are copy/pasted between editions.

 

Precedence is not binding, however, and we've seen different rulings between similar rules even in the same edition. But it is a good starting point for a discussion with an opponent or TO.

 

This is even more important now that FAQs are really not happening much any more, and the new online docs are answering no questions, just post-editing the books.

[Happyfellow]

Thanks for the reply. 

[Dam13n]

Well it's now been included in the latest FAQ:
 

Q: The Standard of Devastation states that ‘all friendly Codex: Dark Angels units within 6" of the standard treat their boltguns as Salvo 2/4 weapons’. Which boltguns does this apply to? (p66)
 
A: This applies to the standard boltgun (24" range, S4, AP5, Rapid Fire), twin-linked boltguns on bikes, the bolter component of combi-weapons, and hurricane bolters.

 
So that's pretty much the end of that.

[Axagoras]

if storm bolters were defined as tl bolt gun (like chaos) then it would affect them, but regardless of it all massed bolt fire really isnt even worthwhile. maybe on bikes so you can move them to get the range,