Newbie Unforgiven, got some tips for me?

[Tiberius Cato]

Hail, brothers!

I've been in these hallowed halls before, but now I truly start my time as a member of the Unforgiven. I'm going to be starting a DA force using primarily DV models that i'm getting soon, and I'll fill in whatever spots that need filling afterwards. So, what is a good list that covers most of my bases? I'd like to use primarily infantry as possible and maybe a dreadnought or two. My preferred approach would be a gunline army, so whatever is mainly shooty is a plus for me. I don't care too much for close combat, for the survivability of my models on the table top, so I don't need close combat monsters unless it's necessary to take one to be an effective fighting force. But I don't quite know what i'm talking about, so any advice you guys can give me would be much appreciated.

 

Perhaps i'll be able to afford a decent camera soon, then I'll be able to share my models with you all to criticise and help me improve my technique. I got a few ideas for different ways of painting this lads and i'll post the results I like most for you all when I have a camera.

 

Anyways, I look forward to your wisdom, brothers. Glory to the First Legion!

 

p.s. Any DA catch phrases or lines that are a must for a member of the Unforgiven? For the Emperor and such are good and all, but specific things for the First would be nice, especially when I get some fluff going.

[angel2burst]

Hello Brother, I welcome to Unforgiven. To anwser you questions a command squad with one of are scared banners is what you are looking for, in particular the banner of fortitude which gives you a 12 inch FNP bubble and the banner of  Devastation which turns your boltgun into salvo 2/4 within 6 inches. Also look into mortis dreadnoughts which are a forge world dread that has skyfire and intercept as long as it stays still. If you are hiding behind a agies the Ravenwing darkshround gives the stealth rules to those within 6 inch, finally almost all are HQ are fearless and are librarian have accesses to divination so adding them to a dev squad can work wonders .

 

To answer your second question a common saying among the Unforgiven is "FOR THE LION" in reference for are Primarch Lion El'Jonson

[Disciple of Caliban Sgt]

Never Forgive, Never Forget. Is also a big saying of ours.

In previous editions we were known for not allowing any kind of mutant or alien tolerance. No "abhumans" from Astra Militarum (Imperial Guard) or ogryns things like that. Psykers were allowed but that was about all the tolerance we'd allow.

 

I'm not sure how much of the fluff you are aware of but remember we are the First. We fought with the Emperor on Terra to help him "unite" humanity and then moved on to the stars. We were basically masters of it all hence why we have the different wings. The First Legion had to have experts in all fields since the other Legions didn't exist initially. So we had a Close Combat Wing. Space Wing, Biker etc. Also remember there is no happy go lucky with anyone outside the Legion and only if you are in the same "circle" are you allowed to truly be a brother. Otherwise the others know more or less than you so you are trying to get into the next "club" or are trying to keep the secret from the other non club members.

 

Knightly Orders are also a must remember. We did come from a knightly world after all.

 

Anyway on to tactics:

 

Gunlines are fun sometimes and DA do it fairly well. Remember though that gunline only works if you are in range so you may need a way to get your army within midfield or so to gunline everything to death.

 

All gunlines want some kind of Hand to Hand unit. Not necessarily a massive hitting deathstar or anything but you need to have something that can counter charge a enemy unit and either kill or tie it up.

 

Example. You set up a gunline. I'm playing Blood Angels or Orks or some other hand to hand army. I know I need to get into your line so I'm going to bring something fast and something threatening preferably three or four units of this. When I charge you with said unit you want to be able to hit them before they hit your big guns or most effective shooting unit. So you bring this "hand to hand" squad to do one of three things.

 

Either A.) Tie the charging unit up so you can get one more turn of shooting and hopefully use something like a Tac Squad to charge and help eliminate the unit. This is your speed bump. Not really going to stop the guys just slow them down and you can charge them next turn or get help to wipe the guys next round. Also acceptable to charge the squad slow the unit down. Let your counter charge get wiped then shoot the unit off the board when able. Speed bumps are cheap expendable types. Assault Squad can be a good example though they aren't always cheap depending on loadout etc. Scouts can do this as well.

 

B.) Counter Charge unit that is fairly good at hand to hand kitted out escorting a HQ "beatstick". So these guys maybe a Assault Squad fully loaded with a Inter. Chaplain with Jump Pack. Squad hits fairly decent can react all around the board with a 12" move enough attacks to hurt something. Chaplain gives the old rerolls and semi fearless and can cause some serious damage on his own. Way more expensive than a Speed Bump may or may not wipe out the unit I have charging your gunline. Will do awesome against standard Troops but not dedicated Melee squads (Terminators etc.)

 

C.) Counter Charge Deathstar. These guys are a fully kitted out Vet Squad with power weapons on every model and having either Azrael in the squad to give them all 4++ invul save or Storm Shields. Appropriate weapons to taste. Very expensive and a central part of your army you kind of build your list around these guys.

 

So for you it sounds like either A or B for what you kind of want. Banner of Devastation is great for allowing the Boltguns to shoot like a buzz saw.

 

Another good counter charge unit we have is Deathwing Knights. Small group of five will end a lot of different units.

 

If you could help with being more specific we can help you out.

 

DoC

[Tiberius Cato]

I want mostly standard marines, maybe 2 or 3 tactical squads, an assault squad or two, and atleast one dreadnought. I'll have some termies from the DV set and i'm not sure if i want to pick up the librarian and Balthasar yet. From what you said, it looks like getting a squad of Deathwing knights may be a good idea to fend off any melee fighters, as that seems to be the middle ground between a melee deathstar and a weak tactical squad. would it be beneficial to work in Ravenwing in their to meet the charge? I know if I do take a dreadnought I need another vehicle or two to force my enemy to decide between the dreadnought and whatever else I take, so maybe Deathwing and a land raider?

 

I'm not quite sure on how to be more specific in terms of generating an effective list, whatever information you need just let me know and i'll do my best to give you whatever information you need.

 

Fluffwise, I've skimmed over the main DA article on Lexicanum and I intend to pick up a few of the novels pertaining to them in the future to further brush up.

[Disciple of Caliban Sgt]

The novels are a mix of good bad and great. Surprisingly Unremembered Empire has a lot of good info on DA even though its a Ultramarines novel.

 

ADB wrote some great short stories. A standard Company is actually fairly good for a shooty army. Using a librarian army for Prescience is very good. Azrael is great for providing leadership 10 too all DA on the board. Plus he can give 4 ++ to a unit hes' attached too. Bikes are great for a reaction force. Beware once you start bikes often you fall in love with them. Same with Termi's. Bikes and Termi's make an excellent Dualwing force in our book. All our bikes have the Teleport homer which lets the Terminators deepstrike and not scatter if they do so within 6" of a bike. Plus scout and other rules help the bikes.

 

Devastators are also good but think long and hard how you want to use them and what weapons. Lascannons or Plasma Cannons are usually pretty good. Some people still use Missile Launchers for versatility but you will have a hard time on vehicles with it. For my Tac Squads I load them up with a Plasma gun and Plasma Cannon. I also give a plasma pistol to the sarge but that is fairly contested among many people. Rarely do I give a Hand to hand weapon to my Tac Squads.

 

I personally love assault squads but many people don't. They aren't the greatest but they are good tie up speed bump type hand to hand unit as I said earlier. I love giving them a chappy and either flamers or Plasma Pistols and letting them go to town on a unit. Just remember they will die if you charge something fairly nasty. But similar to the bikes they have good movement and can 'jump" over stuff.

 

My personal though with dreadnoughts is to use them as a support for my Tactical Squads. One with a heavy flamer and Assault Cannon are good for a multi purpose support. If the squad gets charged they have something with four high strength attacks on the charge. Plus the Assault Cannon puts out decent mid strength shots and the Heavy flamer will kill in hordes of troops charging your lines. Once again don't expect them to last too long if they are your only armor but they can do alright to great sometimes.

 

Deathwing Knights are one of the best hand to hand units in the game. Expensive but a 3++ invul save and bunch of Strength 10 attacks for one round is awesome.

 

Remember each unit you have probably only will get in one round of combat maybe two at the most. So you use the Knights to charge a squad charging your gunlines as an example again. If the squad charging your lines is a big bad uber unit then you use your Smite mode (Strength 10) and wipe them out. Keep in mind the squad is also Toughness 5 if they are all in base to base of each other.

 

Most people deal with terminator type units by shooting them with lots of shots that are not that strong. Toughness 5 helps with this a lot since they wont wound you as much. Also they have the rule where every six to hit is counted as a precision hit. So you can single out wounds on enemy with Power Fists and things like that which will really help keep the squad alive. They are expensive at 235 points but a squad of five can help a lot. If you place them right. They are slow compared to bikes and assault squads so you basically place them in or near your gunline so they can charge well.

 

Terminators can be used to help out as a deepstrike reaction force. The twinlink shooting helps but they can't shoot very well unless you bring a lot. Having all Power Fists help them kill stuff fairly well but they are expensive for five guys but they aren't the greatest Hand to hand counter. But if you want them to shoot and kill in hand to hand they can do both ok. 2+ armor save can be nice though.

 

What kind of points level do you plan on playing at? This really drives some of this. 1500 points list and you really only want 1 HQ or two very cheap ones. 1850 and it depends on what you want to do with them. Custom HQ Company master can be good and cheap. Add enough combat help to swing a combat of something small hitting your squad. Stuff like that.

[Tiberius Cato]

I'll probably be playing atleast 1500 points, but 1850 and 2000 are possible as well.

[SnakeChisler]

I've been playing mixed wing quite a lot lately and I'd recommend you get a couple of Razorbacks and not glue the lid on so you can switch them to Rhino's, I love the Twin linked Heavy Bolter in fact I'm a heavy bolter fanboy, the Las variant has merit but bumps up the cost, makes them more of a target and your then reluctant to move them full speed for objective grabs. My loadout for a 1000 - 1500 has been 2 with 5 tacs in each with plasma gun.

 

Your not going to be able to sit back and shoot Eldar and Tau will cut you open at distance at an alarming rate, Orks and Tyranids will be in your lines by turn 2.

 

Currently most armies appear to be able to either pour out an insane amount of firepower or in the Eldar's case have an insane amount of ap2/3 at their disposal and we have a number of ways of dealing with this.

 

The Knights buddy up for Toughness 5 and the Ravenwing command Command squad can take an Apothecary add a Librarian on a Bike and give him a Power Field Generator for 4+ Invulnerable. Both these options are expensive points wise but when I started DA I found it very frustrating getting no saves or just having to put up with a 5+ on a terminator squad. The command squad opens up taking a Banner and at 65 points the Devastation banner is cheap given that it works on the tacticals, bikes and the Land Raider crusader. In my opinion these are 2 of the best units available to Space Marines full stop and know a couple of Marine Comp players who run bike armies taking the Black Knight / Librarian combo as allies to get hold of the PFG plasma fun.

 

The DV captain has a combi-plasma and a power sword and is a ringer for Azreal as is the Librarian figure for Azekiel and while Az is expensive Prot has opened me up to a neat way of maxing and getting the most from his abilities and I'd recommend you check out his batrep on the subject.

 

If I don't take a load of bikes I fill the Fast slot with speeders the twin HB variant costs 60 points and just flits around pumping out bullets the Typhoon is another of my fav's. I really don't know why more people don't run the 2 HB one in my experience if you use a couple in conjunction with 2 razorbacks you can rip fragile units such as Eldar Jet Bikes with weight of firepower and deplete Nid & Ork Hordes there a real all rounder.

[Tiberius Cato]

So it sound like a balanced force would be something like this

Librarian on bike w/ power field generator

RW command squad w/ Dakkabanner

DW Knights/Termies

2xTactical squad w/ Razorback

[JeffJedi]

Keep in mind that the banner only works on units in range. The Ravenwing Command Squadron lacks Bolters so they will not benefit. They have Plasma Talons and a RW Grenade Launcher.

[Tiberius Cato]

I see, so I want to have the banner accompany the tactical squads for full effect then?

[SnakeChisler]

Its a bit easier than that you can swan round the backfield jinking and move within 6" of unit 1 then turbo across to within 6" of unit 2 after firing unit 1 but before firing unit 2.

 

Means you can spread out and not do what I've seen some do which is cramp up in a central blob.

 

Theoretical distance between the 2 can be as much as 24 as it just says the banner needs to be within 6 when you fire

 

Also the grenade launcher is a huge force multiplier if you nock a point of toughness off your bolters are for example against Orks wounding on 3s instead of 4s. If your ploughing in 40 shots to a unit that's a huge amount of extra wounds and it has the benefit of reducing T4 multi wound models to T3 so your now instance deathing high value targets with the plasma talons.

 

The ravenwing CS is decent enough to tie up most things in close combat then bug out with hit & run leaving a unit stranded and ready to get hosed, twin linked plasma also does a lot of damage on overwatch and works OK as a back up anti air weapon

[Prot]

There's some really good advice in here. Personally I think in hindsight it would be best to start with multiwing, and take the advice in this thread. Within 3-5 games you will get a real sense of what suits your playstyle and then go in that direction.

 

Gunline army is definitely tough. The main Codex Astartes simply does it better with tremendous flyer back up.  The quad gun is a Whirlwind on steroids. The Sentinels of Terra or even just Fists tactics allow you tremendous small arms dakka and helps your Dev squads with armour. And of course they have a better dread, and the ever popular Centurions.

 

I don't know how competitive you will be playing but I truly believe to play the strengths of Dark Angels is to play diverse. The downside? Low model count, unforgiving (ironic). The upside? As dated as the codex feels, and expensive, I still don't think anyone does diversity better. 

 

You could have a long term plan in the back of your mind too. Get the PFG going on a bike, and you could follow the dual Landraider builds out there giving them both a 4++ and using the LR's and their contents as your mobile firebase. Slow, very shooty, and (hopefully) resilience gets you the win in those cases.

 

Just a couple things for you to think about. 

 

The DV box is a very good starter though. Even in my strongest lists I have used -most- of the contents. I prefer Balthasar to Azrael, and prefer the libby model to Ezekeil and they are both WYSIWYG replacements for those characters. 

 

I have a big thread going on how you can put that box set to get use if you're bored. (you do need pods though... everyone should have about 30 of them imho! Well... 3 at least. ;) )

[Tiberius Cato]

Thanks for the tactical advice, brothers! I have a few questions regarding certain aspects of the models: Do I have to use robes to represent veterans? I've read in multiple places that the Dark Angels prefer to not bling out their armour and they subtley display their honours and such. So any armour decorations should be painted in a subtle colour, to my understanding; so would like silver or bone/tan-ish details work on Dark Angels? And marines tend to display their battle honours often, is this true with the Dark Angels aswell, or will it be unfluffy to display many battle honours?

 

That's all I got for now, if I think of more I'll be sure to ask you guys.

[Cactus]

There is no requirement to use the robed models for anything. The precise meaning of the robes is one of those things that GW purposefully leave vague so you can use them as you wish.

 

I think you can bling out your Dark Angels as much or as little as you want to. They talk about subtlety and austerity but look at the Deathwing command squad models. Also there are so many cool Dark Angel bits available it would be criminal not to use at least some of them! Spaced Hulk's Sword Bearers (his DIY Dark Angel successor chapter) use a lot of fancy parts but the colour scheme keeps them from being too flamboyant.

[Tiberius Cato]

Okay, I have a list for you guys to put some input on:

Librarian on bike with power field generator 115 points

Ravenwing command squad with Champion, Apothecary, and Dakkabanner 220 points

Deathwing Knights 235 points

Company Veterans squad sergeant with combat shield and power weapon, heavy bolter 120 points

Tactical squad with plasma cannon and Razorback 140 points

Tactical squad with veteran sergeant, plasma gun and Razorback 150 points

 

Total: 980/1500

 

So, what else should I add to improve this list and what should I change?

P.S. the veteran sergeant in the second squad is my first and only current DA model I have. He's from the Deathwatch RPG and I wanted to use him.

[Lord Kasalladalla]

I'd like to use primarily infantry as possible and maybe a dreadnought or two. preferred approach would be a gunline army, so whatever is mainly shooty is a plus for me. I don't care too much for close combat, for the survivability of my models on the table top, so I don't need close combat monsters unless it's necessary to take one to be an effective fighting force.

2 Scout Group, 4 Tactical Squads of 5 each w/missiles, 2 Full Devastator squads (las + plasma), 1-2 Termies of 5 each, 2 dreads. Azrael gives 4+ and everyone on board can use leadership.

[SnakeChisler]

Okay, I have a list for you guys to put some input on:

Librarian on bike with power field generator 115 points

Ravenwing command squad with Champion, Apothecary, and Dakkabanner 220 points

Deathwing Knights 235 points

Company Veterans squad sergeant with combat shield and power weapon, heavy bolter 120 points

Tactical squad with plasma cannon and Razorback 140 points

Tactical squad with veteran sergeant, plasma gun and Razorback 150 points

 

Total: 980/1500

 

So, what else should I add to improve this list and what should I change?

P.S. the veteran sergeant in the second squad is my first and only current DA model I have. He's from the Deathwatch RPG and I wanted to use him.

 

There is no hard and fast answer, the above is a basis and you can mix it with other units depending on your style which will develop with games and as they say there are many ways to skin a cat.

 

A few options tho to sub in and out 3 x speeders with magnets on them so you can swap weapons Typhoon is a good go to choice (Backfield option)

or

A squads of 3 Bikes with Attack Bike with 2 special weapons (Aggressive scout or outflank Melta)

or

Some Heavy support (Couple of Vindicators, couple of Las Dreads (just don't glue the arm on and swap the weapons in/out as you please) Devastator squad, Whirlwind etc.

 

More Terminators

With my regular opponents Terminators are a hard sell I'd loose every game if I went Deathwing, the Knights last tho coz I get the Invulnerable + option to increase toughness to 5 and even 1 beats the snot out of backfield heavy support and they hit on initiative which is huge against large squads so more terminators are gaming group dependent they'll work against some races but Tau/Eldar will spam you with AP2 and something like Orks will swamp powerfist terminators with wounds in combat before they can strike.

 

More Tactical squads

I've never run more than 2 Instead pump points into Fast Attack with the speeders/bikes etc.. they could work but you'd need to run lots of squads with lots of transports (Rhino/Drop Pod), Generally I don't take a Tac squad without a transport of some variation and as I play objective based games (Maelstrom and mission packs from the net) there useful for objective holding.

 

Games & Missions - I'd recommend Maelstrom its bags of fun also try these there progressive and are more alligned with 7th http://www.lounge.belloflostsouls.net/podcasts/FTNmissionpack.pdf

[Lord Kasalladalla]

I don't know how competitive you will be playing but I truly believe to play the strengths of Dark Angels is to play diverse. The downside? Low model count, unforgiving (ironic). The upside? As dated as the codex feels, and expensive, I still don't think anyone does diversity better.

 

I think Prot said it best with DA being good at diversity. The key stone to that diversity is Azrael or Balth as they bring elites and fast attack to the troop choice. That is probably the most import build choice for the DA. You can be more Raven or Deathwing, but why not be both? With too much Raven you have all this speed with weaker hitting power and speeder armor makes one cry. To much Deathwing and you have low model count and can be too slow to capture objectives. Every military needs a flanking unit and a heavy hitter unit and the DA have that in harmony. The combination will make you more ready for a slew of different opponents. To chase a Greenwing is very doable as any space marine army can do that. There won't be any special advantage for the DA but the model count will be higher. Who doesn't want to watch 50 bolter dice chew through an Ork army? As space marines we quest for numbers as that is the very weakness marines have, just make sure you have some speed and some muscle.