BA Today

[Xenith]

I find myself in the interesting position of having a little Christmas money. 

I called my good friend to ask his advice and we're thinking I should spring for 3 Hammerfall bunkers. 

I'm not 100% sure though. 

 

Is any one using them?

 

I remember advising my 'good friend' in 3rd ed that the ion cannon was superior to the rail gun on his Tau Hammerhead. 

 

BA have the advantage that we have enough jump stuff to leap over that terrain. 1 might be ok, 3 will entirely block off your deployment zone on 9th ed smaller tables and give you a headache. 

 

Get one if you really like the models - the rules aren't spectacular. The servo turrets work better as semi-mobile defence platforms. For the £price of 3 bunkers, you can get 3 ATV's and 2 servo turrets, which would undoubtedly be better. 

[Warhead01]

Thanks for the input.
I realize the Hammerfall bunker doesn't seem fibulas. Having player Orks for more than 20 years I think at a minimum 2 of these should be fielded. Ork units have the same problems, some of them are just worthless unless you take 3 or more of a kind. 
I didn't realize the DZ's were that small this edition. One of my usual opponents has been talking about some kind of full infantry AM army and I have been thinking these bunkers could be just the thing for thinning his ranks. Putting him on the defensives from the start. 

It's between these or the firststrike turrets. I just imagine the bunkers getting to target more units and roll more attacks from the start than the turrets. 
I guess these just don't fit in very well with the modern competitive mindset, most of you seem like more competitive oriented oriented players. 
So I can understand why the bunkers wouldn't be overly exciting choices for a lot of you.

Thanks again for the input. I'll be thinking it over for a few days before I pull the trigger on anything. 

 

Edit
Yikes, I was wrong.
I thought the Heavy Bolters were 6 shots not 3. 
3 shots each is just too few dice to save this unit. 
I'll likely go with the firestrike turrets instead. 


 

Edited December 3, 2020 by Warhead01

[DarkMark]

Have GW really removed the BA Tactical squad from their store? If so, I think that's a tragic thing. What a bitter sweet day for us.

[Karhedron]

I doubt that the Tactical squad has been withdrawn. More likely it is just temporarily out of stock while they rebox it for 9th edition. This happened to the SW boxes last month.

[JakeusMaxemus]

Greetings brothers of Baal, first post on B & C! :)

Glad to be on here at last!

Just a note I was lucky enough to get an order for the Astorath limited Ed book and its arrived today with a BA combat patrol and set of DC intercessors, super stoked to read it! The book is absolutely gorgeous!

Early seasons greetings to yall!

[Indefragable]

Greetings brothers of Baal, first post on B & C!

Glad to be on here at last!

Just a note I was lucky enough to get an order for the Astorath limited Ed book and its arrived today with a BA combat patrol and set of DC intercessors, super stoked to read it! The book is absolutely gorgeous!

Early seasons greetings to yall!

 

Welcome to Baal. 

[Indefragable]

Got to my FLGS for the first time in a long time and they’re shipment of all things BA has been delayed. Le sigh.

[Paikis]

Got to my FLGS for the first time in a long time and they’re shipment of all things BA has been delayed. Le sigh.

Have you considered using a (somewhat) local reseller?  Here in Australia we have several sites with (around) a 20% discount off GW stores and they will deliver to my door in around a week.

[Indefragable]

 

Got to my FLGS for the first time in a long time and they’re shipment of all things BA has been delayed. Le sigh.

Have you considered using a (somewhat) local reseller?  Here in Australia we have several sites with (around) a 20% discount off GW stores and they will deliver to my door in around a week.

 

 

It's not out of the question, and I've ordered from other places in the past...

 

...but for a number of reasons I aim to be as loyal to my FLGS as possible. It's where my club plays (and has been a very good relationship overall), it's a mom & pop kind of place so supporting them during these times is good, and though they are far enough away that I can't go all the time, having them order stuff and going to pick it up is still usually the most efficient instead of having stuff shipped to me. 

 

So put it all together it is what it is. Just my choice. I appreciate your suggestion, however. 

[Leonaides]

Had to go via a bigger online store to get hold of the dice as my preferred flgs wasn't allocated any. Unfortunately that led to a few more things spent to get free postage, but I still picked up 2 boxes of assault intercessors from my local. It really is time to use it or loose it these days.

[Majkhel]

Finally got my hands on the new Supplement. Really nice new artworks. Also, I'm surprised and glad to see Flesh Tearers company markings revealed. Opens new possibilities for other successors too.

[nagashnee]

Really enjoyed the fluff blurbs on the successors in the new warzone and scattered around the book.

[redshadow]

 

Tabletop titans blood Angel review

Edited December 17, 2020 by redshadow

[Paikis]

People keep linking that video. I'm just going to link to (and copy here) /u/LevTheRed's comment on the Blood Angels reddit:

 

"Everything that makes them stronger is a product of the new Space Marine book. They say as much at the end when talking about nerfs. To paraphrase, 'you could take away [the entire Blood Angel supplement] and I wouldn't care [because the Space Marine book is so good].'

They admit the Sanguine Discipline is inferior to the vanilla SM one.

They admit all of the BA strats are worse this edition, but that doesn't matter because the best strats are either limited to Sanguinary Guard (the one objectively strong unit in the book) or to Primaris Marines.

The only thing the Blood Angels inherently have going for them is Red Thirst, which I think they are overselling because it only procs on a Charge (unlike most other Chapters' abilities), which is further undercut by the fact we lost almost all of our strats that made getting into melee easier.

They are also outright wrong about the Sanguinary Guard/Hero of the Chapter synergy. HotC specifically says that a Character only counts as being a Warlord for the purposes of receiving that trait.

This video reads to me like, "They're great as long as you play them like red space marines rather than aggressive alpha-strike army they've been up until now."

[nagashnee]

 

People keep linking that video. I'm just going to link to (and copy here) /u/LevTheRed's comment on the Blood Angels reddit:

 

"Everything that makes them stronger is a product of the new Space Marine book. They say as much at the end when talking about nerfs. To paraphrase, 'you could take away [the entire Blood Angel supplement] and I wouldn't care [because the Space Marine book is so good].'

They admit the Sanguine Discipline is inferior to the vanilla SM one.

They admit all of the BA strats are worse this edition, but that doesn't matter because the best strats are either limited to Sanguinary Guard (the one objectively strong unit in the book) or to Primaris Marines.

The only thing the Blood Angels inherently have going for them is Red Thirst, which I think they are overselling because it only procs on a Charge (unlike most other Chapters' abilities), which is further undercut by the fact we lost almost all of our strats that made getting into melee easier.

They are also outright wrong about the Sanguinary Guard/Hero of the Chapter synergy. HotC specifically says that a Character only counts as being a Warlord for the purposes of receiving that trait.

This video reads to me like, "They're great as long as you play them like red space marines rather than aggressive alpha-strike army they've been up until now."

 

Thats the primaris effect, the entire marine mantra of sell chapters on individual rules/models shifted in 8th to sell new space marines, colours/flavours are meaningless in the new era cause they are building foundations. When they finally run out of new primaris generic releases they will circle back to the old way for a while. Anything as long as it means moar space marines pretty much. 

[The Unseen]

That and they got a number of rules wrong.

Like chapter ancients, which we can't take.

 

They also claim that marines are the best faction, despite the fact that GT results just don't support that at all.

Half the field is some flavor of marine, yet the top placing stuff is still always harlequins, custodes, chaos soup, and orks.

 

And to try and say that +1 attack is somehow equivalent and or better than the white scars super doctrine of +1 damage is truly absurd.

A 100% damage bonus thats sometimes on vs a 25% bonus thats on vs everything is in no way comparable. White Scars blow our melee out of the water come turn 3 vs anything that matters, AND they can get +1 to wound on top of it with Korsarro.

 

Their whole argument completely falls apart as soon as SG get even a modest points increase.

 

In short, I think they're really over-selling it, especially to call it the best marine faction is straight up laughable.

[Blindhamster]

 

People keep linking that video. I'm just going to link to (and copy here) /u/LevTheRed's comment on the Blood Angels reddit:

 

"Everything that makes them stronger is a product of the new Space Marine book. They say as much at the end when talking about nerfs. To paraphrase, 'you could take away [the entire Blood Angel supplement] and I wouldn't care [because the Space Marine book is so good].'

They admit the Sanguine Discipline is inferior to the vanilla SM one.

They admit all of the BA strats are worse this edition, but that doesn't matter because the best strats are either limited to Sanguinary Guard (the one objectively strong unit in the book) or to Primaris Marines.

The only thing the Blood Angels inherently have going for them is Red Thirst, which I think they are overselling because it only procs on a Charge (unlike most other Chapters' abilities), which is further undercut by the fact we lost almost all of our strats that made getting into melee easier.

They are also outright wrong about the Sanguinary Guard/Hero of the Chapter synergy. HotC specifically says that a Character only counts as being a Warlord for the purposes of receiving that trait.

This video reads to me like, "They're great as long as you play them like red space marines rather than aggressive alpha-strike army they've been up until now."

 

the wound bonus is for charging or being charged or heroic intervention. Most combats dont last multiple rounds these days, so it procs most of the time.

[BluejayJunior]

And to try and say that +1 attack is somehow equivalent and or better than the white scars super doctrine of +1 damage is truly absurd.

A 100% damage bonus thats sometimes on vs a 25% bonus thats on vs everything is in no way comparable. White Scars blow our melee out of the water come turn 3 vs anything that matters, AND they can get +1 to wound on top of it with Korsarro.

 

This entirely depends on the target and what weapon is being used. I believe when they were first introduced in 8th, the math favored us for most targets, but that may have changed with marines moving to 2 wounds. But it would be hard to argue one is just straight up better than the other.

Against marines, the +1 damage will be better more often since most weapons are D1. But with thunder hammers, power fists, encarmine weapons, the +1 A is better because you won't need the extra damage. Against anything with 1W, +1 A is always better. 

[SnorriSnorrison]

Not disregarding what other frater have stated about the WS vs BA issue, but taken into perspective, I think we come out on top. White scars don’t have special units tooled up for close combat, they use the ones from C:SM. For us, DC and SG are valuable tools to get into close combat quick and with force. Wrath of Baal, Forlorn fury, re-rolling charges makes our units more reliable to actually get the damage done they need. The units that we *want* to play have jump packs and ignore terrain, while white scars have more synergy with bikes, reliant on paths to sweep and charge through; paths which we can block with clever movement. WS also need to get the charge off to have their doctrine active in the 3rd round, while we don’t.

Is advancing and charging that good on 5” movement aggressors or terminators? You’ll roll a 3 most of the time, so that extra threat range isn’t that big of a deal and the terminators couldn’t even shoot their Bolters. Neither can outriders. So you have lacklustre close combat units charging you before turn 3, and souped-up units which are still kind of “eh” after turn 3, but that means you have 2 turns to get rid of them. Unlike WS, the Blood Angels can actually make it into the combats they want to be in, and strike with their doctrine active (FAQ pending).

 

Yes, +1D is good, I would’ve loved that as an ability in a stratagem or a psychic power for us - but +1 to wound with more attacks and the quality of attacks that BA can bring to bear at the right points on the board exactly when they need it is better in my opinion.

 

But bear in mind I’ve only had a few games this edition. :D

[AngelofRedemption]

BA are good in part due to the marine books.

 

But, even though the BA srtats got needed, there are enough excellent relics, units and synergies in the BA book which, on top of Red Thirst, offer a big boost.

 

Sang Guard are amazing.

Sang priest with jump pack and master apothecary is obscene.

Visage of Death relic is hilarious.

Plus lot of options for bonus movement, pre-roll charges. And though no one strat is broken enough to build around, enough of them are situationally useful enough to give massive tactical flexibility.

 

On top of that, we have amazing movement and a solid choices of secondaries so with the various obsec tricks we play the objective game very well.

 

TLDR: the BA book isn't broken on it down, but is an excellent complement to the SM book.

[Bonzi]

BA are strong because the base dex is strong. That is undoubtedly true. What is also true is that our strats have been toned down but they honestly had to be. If we had gotten the boost of the new marine dex + the power of some of our old key strats we would have been the new meta setters waiting for the nerf hammer.

 

It is true that you see dexes like Harlies, orks and Chaos topping the meta right now. It's because they are 8th ed books that grew stronger from the core changes to 9th, but their strats remain at the power of 8th ed strats. If you look at all the new 9th ed dexes it's clear GWs vision for Stratagems in 9th is as ways to add flavor and flexibility of play rather than the crushing must spam level of 8th ed design set.

 

In 8th ed our Smash Captain changed the entire meta. In effect we were the throttle on Knights lists. When you look at the BA book you can see that GW went out of their way to remove every part of the play style. It was effective but it wasn't exactly fun for the game to have what amounted to unstoppable untra reliable cruise missile able to obliterate a key super heavy in one go. It was glorious, it was very Blood Angel, but it was bad for the game. Welcome to 9th ed. We are not the greatest marine faction. We are not the worst. We are still good and punching things but we don't play the same as before but that's ok because the meta has shifted. The game has turned into a fight for the center of the board. Castles mostly out as is the need to cross the table turn one before you get obliterated. We can reach the center of the board in one turn. If our opponent hangs back then we win on points. If they come out to contests the center then we are in melee where we want to be.

[Spagunk]

Here is my thing: Every time I hear these types of outlets talk about how great BA are and their showcase units, I never see the follow through.

Example: Claim-BA's traits work all the time, and they have a bunch of jump pack units so they have great mobility which makes them top tier.

Cut to all the examples where they use Assault Intercessors, bladeguard etc. I.E. nothing really BA specific or have outrageously high mobility. Granted that there are mentions of SG but then these examples don't really set up how to synergize an offensive assault element properly with the shooting elements that are REQUIRED to win games (I.E. balancing your army list).

It just strikes me of vacuum analysis and doesn't deep dive into how you can use that tactic to get the most of it. We have units that do exactly what they claim: Reach mid field and control the board. But they aren't really saying how you do that if you opt for Melee heavy.

 

My statement: You really can't and should not melee focus your army in 9th! The problem being that our "always on" ability REQUIRES that we be in melee. So either we must 1st/2nd turn charge or we must always be engaging in melee somehow (I.E. they charge us). But what are we supposed to do when there IS no charging? Where the opponent specifically avoids melee and just hits us with super high quality range? Well then the traits aren't with you and you may just be feeding bodies in the hopes that we whittle them down enough or get that clutch melee. We used to have strats for this but those are gone which may be a better long term deal. However declaring BA top tier is a misstep.

 

In the one specific field BA operate in (melee), BA are hugely great at it. But we don't have the best way to get into melee without sacrificing crucial SM units that aren't focused on that melee aspect: specifically Primaris and Primaris adjacent units with maybe a Vanguard Vet squad. Is only 1-2 melee units really worth building an entire BA army for? Wouldn't there be other C:SM armies better suited for getting melee units into your opponents face? Because that's the real trick, isn't it? 

The old saying "jack of all trades, master of none" has a huge caveat in that people forget the rest of the passage: “A jack of all trades is a master of none, but oftentimes better than a master of one.” We are a master of one, C:SM are truly the jack of all trades.

[AngelofRedemption]

Has anyone tried a big unit of plasma inceptors yet? A big unit can do major work coming in from deep strike

 

1cp for Descent of Angels so they hit on 2's. Add in a nearby jump captain for the added hilarity of re-rolls to hit.

 

Gives an average of 35 plasma hits (with the captain) against units of 6+ models which is enough to wreck face

 

Wait til the next movement phase and you can always use upon wings of fire for 1cp to redeploy again turn 4. And with the way the strats are worded, nothing to stop you using Descent of Angels again...

Edited December 17, 2020 by AngelofRedemption

[Karhedron]

Yup, I have been using a squad of 5 plasmaceptors and they are great. A Jump Captain for rerolls is virtually mandatory. A Jump Priest to revive those who overload and burn out is also great value.

[SnorriSnorrison]

Plasma inceptors are great because they require no skill to play. Drop down, remove key threat, hope to survive, repeat. The fact that they don’t need/want to be in close combat means they don’t rely on getting a charge off and the only tactical decision you have to make is whether to overcharge the plasma or not. They mostly benefit from dropping behind enemy lines on turn 2 or 3, when most armies will have advanced to some degree and pulverise any unit you want...

 

Proper screening of your backfield should decrease their threat potential a bit. If they’re forced to Deepstrike in front of your army, they’re much less of a problem to deal with and could have less of an impact. Could’ve, should’ve, would’ve...