Need some Help with Allies

[Acebaur]

Hey guys, so I run Black Templars and we enjoy some close combat goodness. We've noticed a nice little unit you guys have that can help us greatly in CC. Namely the Ministorum Priests. So I've been thinking about picking up some AM as allies to run in a list but I'm really unfamiliar with what's good in the new codex. I have the dex, but having never played guard I thought I would ask those who know best.

 

So I'm looking for some fire support to aid my Templars in battle. I was thinking about some veterans for the bonus BS, but not sure what else would be a good compliment to space marines. I'm not opposed to running some stuff other than the minimum for allies but there are two units that I would like to avoid entirely. Ogryns and psykers. Templars abhor the witch and the mutant and I would like to keep it fluffy. ;)

 

[WarriorFish]

A good choice, Guard and Marines work very well together. Marines provide the tough and hard hitters and Guard the numbers and big guns so that makes BT an even better combination as they specialise in the punching! Veterans would be good, especially providing something like melta or plasma support to open transports to help whittle down MCs and the like but a Platoon could also fit the bill. They'd provide lots of models and potential heavy weapons to secure your deployment zone and throw some fire power across the table.

 

It's all about getting a good mix of units to support each other, fortunately for you the Guard are very flexible :) You'd also get access to some of our other options that Marines lack - a nice Russ squadron or some Hellhounds perhaps? The codex is very much your oyster :D As such there are many answers so it'd probably be easier to start with some ideas and go from there.

 

What sort of points are you looking at? Mechanised or mostly infantry? If you want mobile elements mounted Vets are good and of course Platoons are great at holding a line but you can have a mix of whatever you like. Are you thinking about any particular synergies or just general support?

[scatmandoo]

As said what points are you looking at and what roles would they take. Sit and hold or assist the assault?

 

Also do you have any preferences/units you've always wanted to use?

[Mr. Bleak]

I personally would use Astra as a heavy support force to Templars, who are plenty proficient in killing infantry. Because of Templars penchant for Land Raiders, you can get a lot of AV14 on the board, especially when you ally to Astra. 

 

I'd take something like:

 

Knight Commander Pask in Vanquisher with Lascannon and Multi-Meltas, Camo Netting

-Vanquisher with Lascannon, Multi-Meltas, Camo Netting

 

Veteran Squad, 3 Melta-Guns

-Chimera

Veteran Squad, 3 Melta-Guns

-Chimera

 

Hydra

 

At just over 800 points, this allied detachment handles AA and AT really well, and provides you with two mobile OS units that can pop tanks pretty handily. This leaves lots of space for something like a Land Raider Crusader with a full Crusader squad and a Land Raider Redeemer full of Terminators. 

[Acebaur]

Well for points I usually run 2K lists. I'd like to keep the majority of my points in Templars, so probably between 500 and maybe 750 points of guard. I usually like to run mech as well as a couple of drop pods and/or a gunship like the raven.  So far I've only been taking 1 or so squad of CC Templars because shooting is so much better. But with guard doing a good part of the fire support I can afford a few more CC units. The priests will definitely make basic Crusaders much more deadly and durable.   I've also been looking for a reason to take some Vanguard vets and a command squad on bikes kitted for CC(not necessarily in the same list). Also I do enjoy an OS LRC or two. It's hard not to take one and stuff it full of CC Crusaders :lol: 

 

 

As far as what kinds of units I'd like from the AM, I think some area denial units to take out threats from range as well as some mobile like the afformentioned vets with melta to take objectives. 

[WarriorFish]

Guard's main source of denial comes from the nastiest guns, these can be quite long ranged too but given your Marines will be closing in for the kill most of these would be a bad idea as they'd risk hitting your Templars. So it sounds like some Vets scooting around might be good, but as good as Vets are in the Guard codex they're not quite so special outside. BS4 isn't that big a deal for Marines, though a cheap platform for 3 special weapons at BS4 with a good gun platform as a transport certainly has legs (or wheels!).

 

So aside from a solid infantry core maybe something like Sentinels could work? Do you make use of Land Speeders with your Templars? I'm fond of Guard's Fast Attack options, Hellhound variants in particular - you could send a Banewolf in with your Marines to thin the enemy 3+ saves down letting your initiates finish the job without much hassle.

 

What about an Eradicator? Cheap for a Russ and it will turn all but heavy infantry into vapour, I'm sure your Marines will appreciate it thinning the horde for them and at AP4 potential scatter is less of an issue. Alternatively a couple of Wyverns will do the same job though not on a Russ chassis if you fancy more AV14. Have you thought about a colour scheme for your regiment?

[Acebaur]

Well my main opponents run Wolves, Tyranids, Eldar and Chaos.  My Wolves/Nid's opponent likes to run thunder wolves and big nids, so nasty guns would be a good way to dispose of them. I actually kind of liked the Punisher russ if I'm going to take Pask as the rending is nice and you can force lots of saves on the TWC.  

 

I do make use of LS's, usually the typhoon variant in pairs(though separate squadrons).  Hellhounds do sound interesting, they might be worth a look. Is is it better to run squadrons of vehicles?(and not just hellhounds, in general)

 

I like the idea of some vets in chimeras toting plasma to deal with heavy infantry so my crusaders will have an easier time. 

 

I have thought a little about regiment colors, but not sure what direction I want to take. My Crusade is operating in the Jericho Reach which has a strong AM presence with multiple different regiments of guard. Here is a list of the forces involved. http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Achilus_Crusade#.VCR97vldWNA

 

I think at the moment I'm leaning towards Cadian, but I don't know much about the other forces on that list. The Warhawks sound cool too.  I definitely am not a big fan of the Mordian Iron guard, their look doesn't really interest me

[WarriorFish]

Harakoni Warhawks are cool, and they use Cadian style equipment too which would be convenient. Their use of weapons and carapace could suit your idea nicely. Cadians are always a safe bet though there's nothing stopping you from coming up with your own regiment if you liked - the cumbersome bureaucracy of the Imperium can lose all sorts of things so maybe someone forgot to mention they were there? :P

 

Squadrons come with disadvantages so I only run them if I don't have the spare FOC slots. Certain vehicles don't need the additional support and are a bit OTT shooting a single unit (e.g. Hellhounds, one is usually enough!) but others like Sentinels work well together. Generally I will run a squadron of two as that's plenty and you don't get movement issues with the exception of Sentinels who can scurry around in a trio without issue.

[Acebaur]

So I have a couple of questions. One, regarding the priests and their war hymns.  It says they take a LD test and then get to choose. This is taken on their Ld right and I can't use say the SM Sgt in the squad he is with correct?

 

Also I was thinking about a force like this

 

Pask and 2 Russ's 

 

2x Vet squads in Chimeras with stubbers, and 3x plasma guns. 

 

And then up to 3 priests as needed for Templar support. 

 

That comes to around 800ish points. 

 

What I'm stuck on is how to equip the Russ's.  I was thinking about going with a split  config taking something like the Punisher cannon and HB's on the sides for lots of dakka and then on the other tank take something with a little more S like an Exterminator with MM sides. Using Tank Orders you have a better than average chance to fire at something different every time. Pask's ability to give rending on the punisher can mean lots of nasty for infantry and light vehicles

 

Or am I crazy and I should focus on either AT or AI?

 

Finally depending on weapon choice of the tank commander is Pask worth the extra points?

[WarriorFish]

He has to use his own Ld, but it's serviceable enough. I like your plan, should give you a good support network. A Punisher for Pask loaded with HBs is a good choice as is an Exterminator, though I'd go for more HBs so they eat through enemy infantry like there's no tomorrow! Sponson MMs aren't crazy though, and help create a good option for cracking open armour and other nasties :)

 

As for Pask, he's expensive so you can usually get away with the tank commander. If you want his special rules then he can be worth it for example rending makes the tank a beast albeit an expensive one. Ideally you want him to be the warlord too as his trait is a useful one. So he's by no means an auto include but is worth it if you can spare the points.

[Acebaur]

So here is a test list that I came up with http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/297275-bt-am-2000-list/

[WarriorFish]

Looks good to me, should be able to work well together - don't forget to update us here on how it performs :)

[Acebaur]

What about tempestus scions? They are the new version of stormtroopers right? Are they worth taking or too pricy for what you get?

[WarriorFish]

They're Stormies, just with a fancy name. You can take them in Platoons now which is cool but otherwise they're much the same as before - a rapid strike force that hits hard but isn't particularly durable. You need to pick their targets, for obvious reasons they enjoy blasting through Marines but for popping up in unexpected situations they're useful. I'm not sure there'd be that useful in a list with Marines in though, as they should be your first port of call for elite units.

[Acebaur]

Yeah, I'm thinking vets with plasma/melta are going to be the best bang for you buck as an allied unit.  They can field those weapons in numbers that space marines can only match with expensive one shot combi weapons and for far cheaper on the unit as a whole while still maintaining a good BS4. 

 

 

As I've been reading through the codex I've come across a couple of units that seem like they'd be hilariously fun to run even if they aren't overly competitive. They would be the Manticore and the Deathstrike. The Manticore could be potentially be the more useful of the two with more shots and the potential for several large blast templates to rain down on foes. However, the Deathstrike definitely catches my eye more. It has fun fluffy rules and I've actually read about a vortex deathstrike being used in one of the Soul Drinkers novels so it appeals to me because of that. Thoughts on these units? Are they competitive at all? or just fun to run that may or may not make a difference?

[WarriorFish]

Manticore is good, can do a lot of damage over a wide area but your Marines might not be too pleased when one of those pie plates drops on their heads :P Deathstrike is mean and will annihilate almost everything (including potential Templars...) but no opponent worth his salt will let it fire. So I'm not sure they fit your army so much, the Manticore is the more competitive as it's reliable enough to get a couple of shots off - the Deathstrike will either do nothing or win/lose the game depending on where it hits so fun for normal games but better to look elsewhere for a competitive list.

[Acebaur]

So I made some changes to my BT&AM list. Link to it here http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/297275-bt-am-2000-list/?p=3851594