How do you see your Chaos God(s)?

[refuse]

Another LONG post from a LONG time ago:

 

tl;dr: Your strength of Conviction defines your emotional "color".  If you are closely aligned with an existing god (color pallet), you may be "consumed"/"combined" within the warp.  

 

 

Old Post

 

After Reading the Slaanesh Liber Chaotic, I had some thoughts (and no radio in my car so I had time to think).

 

We know that Slaanesh/Khorne/Nurgle/Tzeentch were created by the impact on the Warp that sentient minds have. We know that over time the "energy" of those minds transformed the warp from a stable calm place into the wildly crazy place it is now in the 41 Millennium.

 

So for this discussion lets say the warp is a colorless plane, and all the emotions are colors (for simplicity). Lets say that each act/thought is a color, and when done, this color is reflected in the Warp, tinting the Warp/real space where the act happens. So when a large number of people have the same color experiences, the warp/real space in that area weakens, and we have Chaos incursions. Also let say that each thought/act colors the person's soul.

 

This can also be helped along by areas where specific acts of that color are happening. So if a huge plague outbreaks, and the people thoughts turn to those of Nurgle, then the barrier can weaken, and Nurgle has access to the people in the area (to either bless or harvest).

 

 

Ok, now lets say you take a real devotee of Chaos. This person is only a single person. But they have spent a huge amount of time building up the Favor of Chaos. But perhaps they didn't. Perhaps what it is, is they are slowly coloring their soul. We know that (in 40k) souls go back to the Warp, and are "recycled". Souls that are powerful enough (it would have to be real powerful) can be reborn into the physical world. 

 

So back to our person. Perhaps they perform acts that reflect on the Warp. But they are also coloring their souls. So lets say that the soul is a mini-warp battery. If you die, your soul is consumed by the power that it most mimics (matches colors). If your soul is pretty color less, it disolves. If you are powerful enough, you can maintain the "cohesiveness of the soul" and be reborn. But perhaps, if during a lifetime, your soul becomes colored enough that it starts attracting more of the color? Such as a Chaos Lord. And now your soul starts creating an attraction to that color. So your soul actually starts weaking the warp/real space barrier. 

 

Now at some point, if you have enough warp energy, or you have thinned the barrier, the Warp Energy flows through the thinned barrier, and into the person. Now if the person is a good match for the color that comes through a New Daemon prince is born. If they were not ready for the color, or they had other colors "tainting" their soul, they are warped by the incoming colors, and a Chaos Spawn is born.

 

 

So on the other side of this, the most beneficial souls to the Chaos Gods would be those of their own followers. But before the follower can open the barrier and become a prince or spawn. So in the case of Khorne, a bloodthirsty warrior would be more "tasty" then a non-warrior. Though the "death" of the soul would taint it to be a small taste. For Slaanesh, the acts performed on a victim would color both the person committing the act, and the person the act is committed upon. This would also explain why Nurgle waxes and wanes, it depends on the Plagues to open people to Nurgle.

 

But this also explains the biggest problem Chaos has. To gain favor (color your soul) you need to "sacrifice"/Battle other champions of your own color. Their souls would be worth more, as they are a purer color.

 

Ok, a bit of fluff to support my idea.

 

There were these guys. The Shamans. They were immortal. But not in the sense they lived forever, but that even when they died, they were reborn. They could live for ever.

 

But this was before the spread of humanity. Back in the times when humanity was limited to one planet.

 

And of all the races, humans have the largest impact on the Warp. So during the time the Shamans lived, and helped mankind, the warp was calm. So "lesser" spirits could be reborn, as the warp had (from the example above) no color.

 

But as humanity spread and their passions/thoughts colored the Warp, one by one the Shamans were dissolved into the Warp. Absorbed by the warp, as they could not maintain themselves in the more turbulent warp.

 

So the Shaman decided they needed to take the next step, and protect humanity from this turbulent Warp. They committed ritual suicide together, and merged their warp presence, and were reborn as the Emperor. (This is the real old fluff).

 

In addition, the Slaan use to teach the Eldar, that a "perfect" mind could survive death, and be reborn into a mortal body. So the Slaan had perfected this, and even death wasn't a fear to them, as they would be reborn.

 

But Again, along comes humanity and we stir up the Warp. Now in the Necron Codex it is suggested that the Necrons "seeded" humanity. This had two major effects. 

1) Some humans are born Warp Blind. In that they do not reflect in the warp, and they are not touchable from the Warp. The humans use these as assassins (cullex?) and the Necrons harvest them to be Pariahs.

 

2) The average human creates a larger then average effect on the Warp. The helps the Necrons by preventing Warp Entities from being reborn, and all but eliminated the Ancient Slaan. But the back fire of this, is that the energies of those souls coalesced and created the Chaos Powers. Much more powerful then the Slaan, but very fragmented.

 

So where does this leave us?

 

Well the average soul upon death is "absorbed" back into the Warp, feeding the Warp powers (contributing to their energy). It's power isn't enough to maintain itself, and the "predators" of the warp tear it apart for the "colors" inside of it. But what of those of significant color? Their souls are drawn to the larger colors. Feeding and empowering them. Now this doesn't' mean that only the 4 major powers get this energy, there could be hundreds of smaller "shades" that draw off this power, but are infact autonomous portions of the larger. (think Khaine and Khorne).

 

So an example could be the astronomicon. The Emperor is a Warp Power, he is fed souls of psykers, untainted by Chaos, purged of their colors. But his body is left in the Material world, binding his mind to the sole purpose of the Astronomicon. The fear being his death, or perhaps the fact that he hasn't died, has prevented the new Warp Power from being unleased.

 

Or perhaps think of Warp Storms as "undigested" soul energy. When the Eldar were becoming decadent, they created a lot of this energy that wasn't being eaten/absorbed. Then Slaanesh started sucking up all this power, and the warp storms abated, or were consumed along with real space.

 

Or perhaps when warp storms precede Chaos incursions, it is chaos that comes to feed upon this energy, much as the C'Tan feed upon the "real" world energy of stars. So Cultist activities, create a fertile feeding ground for the Chaos Gods, and they send their Havesters (CSM) to free the souls and energy from the material world.

 

 

Alright, but back to the problem, with the birth of the Chaos Warp Gods, what happens to souls now. Is immortality sealed off?

 

No, it has changed. The new advantage is that those who "perfect" the mind, now gain true immortality. 

 

Oh wait you say, I don't understand.

 

Ok.

 

The Slaan taught that by perfecting the mind, your death allowed your "soul" to go to the warp, to be reborn in a new form in the material world.

 

But now we see that Daemon Prince status is the new immortality. You are merging your Warp Presence with your Material presence. If you die in the Material World, your warp presence survives, and you can return to the material world at a later time. If your warp presence is destroyed, your material presence still exists and you can reform your warp presence. Only when your "material" form is in the warp, can you be truly destroyed.

 

Now the assumption is there are 4 Chaos powers (The four most basic of things). But we know that non-aligned people become Daemon Princes also. So that means that there are alot more then 4 colors to the Warp. And you do not have to ascribe to one of those 4 to gain the "perfection".

 

No, that all said and done, perhaps Daemon Prince status is the "perfection" of mind that the Slaan were talking about. When your mind is "perfect" there is a permanent conduit between the Warp and you. This conduit isn't one of the Psycker, where you draw power for spells and sorcery, but one of Raw power.

 

So if we assume that the pure energy of thought and souls are what created the Chaos Gods, and the Shamans were pure tought and souls (they transcended death), then the Emperor would be a "WARP" God. Just as the Chaos Gods are "warp" gods. But they are reflections of thoughts, while the Emperor is the "uncolored" thoughts.

 

So there could be lots of "good" daemon princes. Persons who found "perfection" of color and obtained Daemon Prince status, but are not affiliated or bound with one of the 4 major Chaos powers. Perhaps even portions of the Emperor's Power (sensei are the children of the Emperor, psychic blanks, or self contained, immortal warp creatures). Perhaps that when one isn't associated with colors, but is "perfect" they loose the connection to the Warp, becoming a blank. 

 

Also, while it would be harder for persons now to obtain "perfection" as they only have a few lives before their soul energy is absorbed, how does anyone make it to be a Daemon Prince? Well, the quick way is Chaos. Simple and quite well defined. The major human emotions are easy to tap, and awate the proper person to draw on their power.

 

But perhaps there are other ways. Perhaps the "soul" can be a reflection of need, or a sum of parts that came before it. Perhaps when a group of humans are of the same type (despare, hope, faithful, decadent), the warp in their area of real space is "colored" by their experiences. And this warp energy that isn't absorbed by larger warp entities is used in forming new souls is pre-colored, or pre-shaped (in the case of uncolored souls) to allow persons to reach Daemon Prince status. So on a really pious Imperial World, there might be born "god" like humans, that are favored by "gods", when in reality it is the warp energy of those who came before them, spawned back into human form. Kind of like how an hero is born to meet a challenge. The impression of the mind on the warp, would encourage the warp to provide a stronger soul to one birth to absorb this "energy" and rise to meet the challenge.

 

The connection between humans and the Warp would explain why only humans become daemon princes. 

 

Eldar are to binary. They follow paths and such. The original eldar gods (warp gods?) are long gone, and quite weak when compared to the human created gods. Khaine is not nearly as powerful as Khorne, and the Eldar Decadence wasn't really into full swing until humanity too to the stars and provided the raw material for the Eldar's decadence to shape into Slaanesh.

 

Orks have Gork and Mork, and perhaps those two gods are so closely tied to the Orks that the ork Souls are absorbed by them without the chance of returning.

 

Dark Eldar are tied to Slaanesh. Pre-colored if I could say by Slaanesh. Their souls forfeit to Slaanesh at birth.

 

Tau have almost no warp signature. The only species to grow into space without the interference of the C'Tan or the Slaan?

 

The Tyranids have a massive warp "GOD" or presence. The Hive mind. Perhaps it is "free" thought that creates the warp energy, and the Hive mind is the only free thought, and thus the huge "shadow" it creates in the Warp. It blocks out all that it touches, overshadowing it.

[refuse]

And lastly:  My not so quick but quick history of 40k and the Warp:

 

Ok, ready, put your goggles on. 

The original 40k world was created from Fantasy. Basically all the races in Fantasy were carried over into 40k. 

The back story (as perceived/implied) was that the fantasy world is somewhere inside the 40k world.

In Fantasy there was a massive warp gate created by the Slaan to travel around. Warp gates, much cooler then the Eldar ones.

But there was some event that caused the warp gate in the fantasy world to explode/open and allow warp in. Warp in this case is chaos. 

For both worlds.

There is the race/idea of "old ones". They were the first race to space. They evolved many other races through genetic manipulation, and seeded many worlds with "sentient" races. They also lived a super long time (implied forever). 

Now the Slaan are the "oldest" known race, and the race that had the most contact with the other races. The Slaan were old when the Eldar were new. So are they the old ones? 

At this point we have to understand that the warp at that time was calm. And that when a psyker perfected their mind they would live forever. When their physical body died, their "spirit/soul/mind" went to the Warp, and then was reincarnated into the material world. With all of their previous knowledge. This power wasn't only in the hands of the Slaan. The Shamans on earth could do this. 

Ok, so the Necrons. They were a race that had a massive genetic problem, and their sun seems to have been the cause. They lived short painful lives (opposite of the Slaan). But they were very advanced. They found the C'Tan, massive space entities. Real world gods of a sort, who lived off syphoning energy from suns. They gave these C'Tan bodies, and the C'Tan convinced/forced the Necrons into their metalic bodies, fixing the problems with short painful lives. But now making them hate all living things. 

Now a war breaks out between the Necrons/C'Tan and the Old Ones. The old ones have many races to help them. Kork (orks?), Eldar, and others. The Eldar bring Warp Energy into the real world to create their gods. Khaine, Vaul. . . These gods are smaller versions of what will become the major Chaos Gods (or to some extent). Vaul makes a weapon capable of killing C'Tan, what is now known as the Blackstone fortresses. This weapon is a massive psychic gun, that can collapse whole systems (Abaddon has used on a couple of times). 

Khaine sides with the C'Tan for awhile, before turning on the C'Tan and siding with the Eldar again. Khaine destroys Night Bringer's Body (seeming infecting his own). 

Now while this is happening, and the Old Ones are creating more psykic races to help them fight, the Warp is getting stirred up. It isn't calm anymore and many of the "perfect" minds are being consumed. You can imagine the warp as these whirlpools. Each pulling in emotions and "minds" that are like themselves. As people die in battle, or get consumed in battle, the "battle/Rage/murder/killing" whirlpool gets bigger, and stronger. When these whirlpools get strong enough they gain sentience. (much like the original Eldar Gods). But now these are being fed by hundreds/thousands of different speices, instead of the Eldar Gods being created by jus the Eldar. So many of the "old ones" are dieing. Perhaps these are the Slaan, perhaps they just guided the slaan.

 

But anyways, with this advent, the Enslavers show up. They feed off of psykers. They control minds, but can create a warp gate through the mind of a psyker to go to other planets. Perhaps the Enslavers got ahold of the strongest of the psykers, the Old Ones and the Slaan. Perhaps that is why they started dieing out, as the ones with real power were consumed. But anyways, with the advent of the Enslavers, the old ones started really disappearing, and the Necrons set up some plans and figured it was better to hibernate. 

After this, the Chaos Gods got stronger and stronger with all the races left. And the Enslavers problem went away (perhaps they killed most of the psykers in the galaxy). 

Also during the problems with the Warp times, the Shamans of Earth (remember them), started dieing out. And they knew that it was only a matter of time before they were all gone. So they all died at the same time, and combined into one being. The Emperor. 

The Emperor united humanity on Earth, and they expanded out into the stars (and possibly found a sleeping C'Tan on Mars). They developed much of their technology then, and really stirred things up. 

But during this time the Eldar were having their own problems. Perhaps with the loss of psykers, and such. Or perhaps with the loss of the Old Ones to guide them, they had started degenerating. Perhaps it was the fact that they had avoided creating one god. But needless to say, this last warp power was growing, and as it grew, it fed back into the minds of the Eldar. They turned their back on all of their successes and achievements to follow a path of self.

 

While the Eldar were doing all of this, the energy they were creating caused the warp to become very distorted, the ability to travel through the warp for long distances was prevented, and humanity was cut off from its colonies. And, or perhaps because of this, humanity collapsed upon itself, and much of what they had created was lost. Perhaps humanity was feeling the power of the new Chaos God as well. 

Then with a bang, the warp storms dissipated. The eye of Terror (probably didn't have a name at the time) was created, most of the Eldar were destroyed and Slaanesh was born. 

This led the Emperor on his crusade to reclaim the galaxy. 

Then there was this Heresy.

 

And here we are. 

[refuse]

And lastly:

  (note where it says the conversation between different gods, it is referring to an old B&C thread that was in Character.  Circa 2006)

http://29thgreatcompany.home.comcast.net/~29thgreatcompany/ideas/chaosfight.htm

 

This discussion between the different Chaos factions is actually how I think the way that each of the chapters would interact. (except they would really just shoot each other.

 

My opinion is that each Power/or lack there of expresses one baser emotion. Something that drives them, and gives them purpose through the ages. It is these baser emotions that give them power through the Warp.

 

The horror of this is that you are damned (depending on definition), blinds them to the reality of their situation.

 

There is a great story about two brothers in the Slaves to Darkness. They both follow the path to Chaos. One brother follows Khorne, the other Follows Slaanesh. The story is spread throughout the book, with a picture of them climbing a "bean pole" of chaos. Each becomes a master of their god. But the Slaanesh brother, in a moment of weakness sees what he has become, and the path to damnation he follows. He falls from the path, and becomes a Spawn. The Khorne brother never looks back and is ultimate rewarded with daemon hood.

 

Now in Slave to darkness not everyone became a Daemon Prince. You could be elevated to a lesser daemon status, and then in the service to your god get promoted from there. So many of the lesser daemons were once human. Their only purpose is to serve. Those gifted with eternal life, but not deserving of Daemon Prince Status are the minions you summon!

 

So even the most "aware" devotees of Slaanesh would still blind themselves to their reality. They could see chaos in all its color, see the limitations and advantages of each of the followers of Chaos. But to question what you have become, or what you are is a sure path to spawndom.

 

We have 9 legions that fell to chaos (fell being from the Imperial stand point).

 

4 Major, 4 Minor and 1 center.

The one center being the Black Legion. Truly more generically aligned then unaligned. They are Chaos Undivided. The whole of Chaos as one.

 

The 4 Major Powers

Slaanesh - Emperor's Children

Khorne - World Eaters

Nurgle - Death Guard

Tzeentch - Thousand Sons.

 

Then the minors. In slaves to Darkness the other 4 were aligned less strongly with one of the 4 major. (Night Lords were aligned with Khorne, Iron Warriors with Slaanesh).

 

So we have the 4 major points and 4 minor points of Chaos (I have been playing for far to long, is it obvious?)

 

So if we cut out the comic book ness of 2nd edition and the first Codex of 3rd, we have the legions of chaos very fractured. Not because they are unintelligent, but because they follow something. And by only absolute belief in that something can they obtain Daemonhood. Any straying from that path leads to Spawndom.

 

Now my opinons are my own, but I feel that when mortals start following the gods they have many ways to get on the path. But as they get farther along the path narrows.

 

Examples:

---Entry to the powers

Follower of Khorne - Initially kills for martial honor and pride. Only fights warriors and perhaps finds it below them to kill inferior warriors.

 

Followor of Slaanesh - Gets hooked on gambling, drugs, fighting, sex, music, adrenalin sports or some other mundane addiction. They believe that they have some control and that there are things they wouldn't do. (such as overdosing, or trying harder drugs, or perhaps stealing).

 

---Midlevel

Follower of Khorne - They have gained Khornes attention, they are fully on the path now. They find that a day they do not kill on is a day Khorne is displeased with them. They might start justifying killing all opponents on the field. Perhaps killing everyone in a town they are attacking. They are the enemy after all. Totally forgetting their ideals of once. Khorne cares not from where the blood flows. Perhaps they kill a friend they see as week or was about to run.

 

Follower of Slaanesh - All sense of decency is pretty much gone. They do things they never thought they would. They have crossed any sense of mortality. They live for the moment. Many burn out at this phase. They either don't think, or justify their acts. Things like fornicating with things you never even thought about, torturing, trying drugs that could kill, or will have permanent damage. The path is set. They have lost the sense.

 

---High Level

Follower of Khorne - All within reach die. Soldiers with them are spared, but if they show any weakness they are slain. Survivors are killed when found. A mortally wounded friend is killed to assure his skull is sent to Khorne. If the follower is about to die, they would rather kill themselves and send their skull to Khorne then take the chance it doesn't make it.

 

Follower of Slaanesh - They have transcended mortal experiences. Sex, drugs, music (as we understand it) are background noise in their day. Experiences that would strip the mind from a normal person are nothing to them. Orgies, gladiatorial combat, sonic walls, garish colors are required to even register. They are hardly human. Torture and pain are just a moment. They strive for anything that breaks the monotony of life. Looking only for the next sensation.

 

 

That is my ramblings on how I view things. Mostly a dark world, where your reward is an eternity in service to the dark power you serve.

 

Now for the unaligned, there is still some patron you serve. While not one of the big 4, you still serve.

 

 

And as for the Emperor, think about this. When a marine dies in the graces of the Emperor, his soul goes to the Emperor. Same as with any of the other Chaos Gods.

[incinerator950]

You know, the convolution is really starting to take its toll again.

[Loesh]

Jumping back over to this thread, I had entertained some pretty interesting thoughts tonight.

 

One of the small bits of idealism I have in warhammer40k is the belief that humanity would function better under Chaos...if the universe wasn't 40k that is. As contradictory as it sounds, when thinking of the Chaos Gods I see much potential for good and advancement for humanity, the problem however is the setting they are in which instead turns them into the "Mad Gods" to end all Mad Gods, of any deity in most fiction they are the closest to their followers being part and parcel of their being rather then an Omnipresent entity that rules from afar.

 

However, consider for a moment what it's like to be Slaanesh, as hard as it is to relate to an Eldritch Abomination she has something akin to a personality when 'speaking' to people or appearing. Ideally such an entity would be composed of love along with pleasure, or peace, or joy and other fanciful emotions...but in 40k it's a constant not-stop deluge of suffering, pain, and anguish mixed in with millions of billions of terrible memories and events all at once due to the sheer size of humanity and all the realms around it constantly feeding in tales of dread and woe, everything good about Slaanesh gets drowned out in a tidal wave of static as tiny little fragments of goodness persist against a tide of raw madness which only creates more madness to feed itself.

 

Wasn't really sure where I was going with that, but it's one of the countless things I muse about between bouts of insomnia. 

[refuse]

Loesh, I agree.

But I think it is the denial that creates the conflict.

 

  Slaanesh:  sex is good, boundaries and such make it bad.  It is, pure and simple, a biological necessity for the species.  Add in the trappings of society and it becomes bad.

 

  Nurgle: Death is natural, but living creatures will do almost anything to avoid it.  Death is release from pain, from suffering, but we fear it, sanitize it, hide it behind walls and it becomes something hideous/scary.

 

  Tzeentch: Change is good, change for "advancement", change for corruption or bad reason is bad.  Evolution = Change = survival.  Material + Warp = evolution.  

 

  Khorne: (as a slaanesh worshipper they are just wrong)