30k vs 40k, brainstorming ruleset

[AekoldHelbrass]

So, in this topic I would like to suggest everyone who had 30k vs 40k experience to share it, and give some recommendations to other players who might get in that situation. And I will edit this post, adding incoming suggestion.

 

Starting out with couple of questions:

1. In my experience the best game size is between 3000 and 3500, that's without primarchs. Your thoughts?

2. Fear becomes major annoyance, as astartes should not fear small petty creatures like dark eldar. I would suggest to change Legiones Astartes to include "immune to fear, except against monstrous creatures".

3. Every 40k MEQ army has a possibility to take " Eternal Warrior" in some form (and some of them have higher T, making them immune to instant death from missiles and lascannons). And in friendly games people tend to take powerful centerpiece lord of some kind. Praetor is missing that option, and often dies to some unfortunate missile, whick is annoying and kills the fun of gearing up a powerfull lord figure. I would suggest to add "Eternal Warrior" upgrade for 35pts, or 40 if your opponent does not have one.

[frozenfoods]

I dunno if Eternal Warrior is THAT needed, I mean, we've got options that other armies certainly don't. In a 3500 point game you could have TWO legion spartans that reduce strength coming from the front arc, have five HP, immune to melta's extra dice, can carry two laser destroyers, and full of 9 terminators and a Praetor/Medicae in cataphractii. There's really not too much that a 40k army can do to really match that. Not only that but our tanks and dreads are just two steps ahead of most other tank selections unless you're IG. I think the balance is there.

Yeah, it sucks losing the dude to str8 sniping, but you can plop him in the middle of a 20 man MEQ unit too, so there's checks and balances. However this of course varies by experiences and situations you encounter, and Warhammer is nothing if it's not modifiable, if this is a problem for you, I would include the option you have above. Give you a good 15-20 point reward for being salamanders is nice, however it does create a small balance problem with units designed to ohko stuff by taking the Thunderhammers and such forgoing their attacks at initiative to get those wounds back by making one failed save really hurt, as opposed to just eventually losing because your attacks at initiative will eventually win out.

[Slips]

And really, if you wanted a super badass hard-to-kill leader or centerpiece unit for your army, you have Primarchs that come with Eternal Warrior anyways.

[caprera]

What I don't see as necessary compared to what you can field on the table are Primarchs in just 2000pts games. I understand the will to field such characters, and to sell them but seems awkward to see such a superman leading such a small group.

 

That revived my fear of seeing nonsense like wolves riders in 30K as well...if you know what I mean.

[Slips]

The thing is, no sensible person would field a primarch at sub 2.5k/3k games since all the extra stuff you need to get to support them properly can easily raise their total cost to ~1k points.

 

Sure they could go mano e mano a titan and come out the victor, but its not worth it in smaller games.

[hisdudeness]

2500 is a good starting point for 30k vs 40k.   Below this level you are pretty much fielding units to make the FOC and a few add-ons. And since all of the 30k units are very specialized the minimum units don't cut it.   At 2500, 30k is viable because you can take the support units needed to make a well rounded force.  Over 3000, and unit size kicks in and you should be able to give most armies a run for their money.

 

 

The problem with tweaking things is that its not really needed, if you play over 2500.   Large unit size and immune to fear is too much...other armies aren't immune and do just fine.  Same with eternal warrior...it's a crutch to playing your HQ smart. 

[frozenfoods]

The squad sizes are fine. Any specialized assault squad can mince meqs, and the lack of atsknf will shine out painfully. Very few units make great use of Fear, and those that do were getting wounded on 5's or 6's anyway. Lots of fearless is aaaaaabsolutely necessary for 30k though.

 

Sub 2500 primarchs cost you nearly everything that would support you in a tangible way, and leave you an extremely one trick pony. Better hope that Spartan doesn't get stunned or immobilized, because that costs you serious time. By the time the ultra kill unit shows up, I'd have a lot of VP, torn what little else you brought down, and have a squad to tie you up for two turns minimum.

[hisdudeness]

I'm not sure you understand the balance issues caused by army wide rules.  There are entire other 40k codexes that don't have army wide counters to fear and do just fine.  Yes, 30k marines suffer more than 40k marines from fear but they are completely different codexes. 

 

I agree the squads sizes are fine and needed...that is one of the up sides of not have ATSKNF,

[AekoldHelbrass]

Yeah, it sucks losing the dude to str8 sniping, but you can plop him in the middle of a 20 man MEQ unit too, so there's checks and balances. However this of course varies by experiences and situations you encounter, and Warhammer is nothing if it's not modifiable, if this is a problem for you, I would include the option you have above. Give you a good 15-20 point reward for being salamanders is nice, however it does create a small balance problem with units designed to ohko stuff by taking the Thunderhammers and such forgoing their attacks at initiative to get those wounds back by making one failed save really hurt, as opposed to just eventually losing because your attacks at initiative will eventually win out.

There's more than that in EW. Losing Praetor to lucky sergeant or hidden PF in group of veterans is fun killer, as well as losing him to single dreadnought hit. I would gladly lose him in battle against opponent leaders, such as Mephiston or Grimnar, but they in turn do not suffer from premature instant death.

 

And really, if you wanted a super badass hard-to-kill leader or centerpiece unit for your army, you have Primarchs that come with Eternal Warrior anyways.

There are a lot of opponents who are afraid to play against 30k, and 30k with primarchs is even more brutal. For cases like that I would use boosted Praetor. And you have to agree, after losing Praetor couple of times to missiles or power fists you will start to think about putting him on jetbike, just to give him T5, even if it does not look very well in your army.

 

2500 is a good starting point for 30k vs 40k.   Below this level you are pretty much fielding units to make the FOC and a few add-ons. And since all of the 30k units are very specialized the minimum units don't cut it.   At 2500, 30k is viable because you can take the support units needed to make a well rounded force.  Over 3000, and unit size kicks in and you should be able to give most armies a run for their money.

I will copy-paste that without modifications, if you have no objections. 

 

I'm not sure you understand the balance issues caused by army wide rules.  There are entire other 40k codexes that don't have army wide counters to fear and do just fine.  Yes, 30k marines suffer more than 40k marines from fear but they are completely different codexes. 

 

I agree the squads sizes are fine and needed...that is one of the up sides of not have ATSKNF,

Well, that's why I'm suggesting to add only immune to fear, and no immune in case you're facing monstrous creature, because adding ATSKNF or Fearless will be too much. Other armies do not pay 45pts for single 2+ model. But frozenfoods is right, luckily there are only couple of units who have Fear and can use it properly.

[Brofist]

I’ve played plenty of “30k in 40k” and my experiences are different from others here. Primarily the games tend to be smaller, ranging from 1500-2000 points, which I’ve found them to be very balanced. I like it because you have to make hard choices about what you bring in your list. Below 1500 the legion list struggles to remain flexible thanks to expensive mandatory requirements, but at 2000+ the amount of economic heavy support and elites we get sways heavily into our favor. This was much more of an issue in 6th edition. 7th helps keep it a bit more level.

Generally speaking 40k armies tend to min mix better and have less issues with morale. 30k armies tend to have much better support units, more bodies, and more options for list building.

The main point of contention with 30k in 40k is that players don't know any of our special rules. My advice is to always ease them into it with friendly games where you explain what each unit is capable of. For Legion units, this is really simple (it's a predator tank, but it has a better gun and has interceptor). With Admech it's much harder, since they are so unique. With that in mind keep the list friend at first, since getting stomped by a tough list and not knowing why is frustrating and will turn people away from playing with you. Likewise our internal balance is better than 40k, so expect to be outplayed by some of the no brainer army choices currently floating around the 40k meta.

Bottom line is that I love it, think its really balance, and the people that have played with me have a good time playing against something completely unique

[hisdudeness]

I agree with your point of below 2000.  you can't really play a list of 30k at those points.

 

Frankly, the "don't know the rules" line is rubbish.  Very few people know all the rules for all the 40k codexes...it's a copout excuse.  And the best ay to learn then is to playa gains the army.

[Slips]

And really, all you need to do is make a quick reference sheet for any rules your army has access to. Problem Solved. Bring the books with you anyways in the event that someone has to the "that guy".

[Brofist]

It shouldn't stop you from playing games, for sure, but you shouldn't expect a 40k player to know about how Cybertheurgy works or your legion rules. Id rather be clear up front and have more games down the road than surprise somebody when they deepstrike near my predator executioner and I delete all his unit during his turn

[Slips]

And lets be honest, Volkite is the least of their worries :P

[amazarak]

I'm curious how the predator can kill things on your opponents turn?

[Moonstalker]

I'm curious how the predator can kill things on your opponents turn?

 

Command Tank upgrade allows one Predator in the squadron to fire one of its guns as through it had interceptor.  Absolutely brutal on an Executioner.

 

IMO, the only sorting-out required for 30k vs 40k is agreeing on how you're building army lists - whether both players use Age of Darkness rules or both use Battleforged.  Some other, minor house rules can also be discussed, like Implacable Advance on terminators granting Objective Secured if you play the 30k as Combined Arms.  30k doesn't need these crutches you're suggesting.

[Dono1979]

As has been mentioned already, I think the ideal points level is 2,500pts. Less than that and the 40K armies start getting a significant upper hand over the inflexible 30K lists, especially if you drop all the way down to 1750 or points like that. Sitting around 3,000-3,500 is probably getting unwieldy for 40K armies and 30K armies begin coming into a some pretty powerful combinations and option which might stomp 40K equivilants.

 

I would strongly recomend NOT modifying rules, like immune to fear and such, the entire 30K lists and integration is built around the significant lack of Stubborn and Fearless, it is simply something that you need to work with and be conscious of. The less rule changes the better and more widely accepted 30K armies will become against regular 40K armies.

[Dono1979]

 

IMO, the only sorting-out required for 30k vs 40k is agreeing on how you're building army lists - whether both players use Age of Darkness rules or both use Battleforged.  Some other, minor house rules can also be discussed, like Implacable Advance on terminators granting Objective Secured if you play the 30k as Combined Arms.  30k doesn't need these crutches you're suggesting.

 

 

I dont even think that is needed, both players use their respective army building methods, 40K use the 7th Ed Battleforged/Unbound, 30K uses the HH books Age of Darkness or alternate FOC system.

The only thing which might need to be unified is the scoring, like you have suggested, give 30K Troops Objective Secured, and anything that counts as Troops for scoring purposes.

[Moonstalker]

 

 

IMO, the only sorting-out required for 30k vs 40k is agreeing on how you're building army lists - whether both players use Age of Darkness rules or both use Battleforged.  Some other, minor house rules can also be discussed, like Implacable Advance on terminators granting Objective Secured if you play the 30k as Combined Arms.  30k doesn't need these crutches you're suggesting.

 

 

I dont even think that is needed, both players use their respective army building methods, 40K use the 7th Ed Battleforged/Unbound, 30K uses the HH books Age of Darkness or alternate FOC system.

The only thing which might need to be unified is the scoring, like you have suggested, give 30K Troops Objective Secured, and anything that counts as Troops for scoring purposes.

 

 

The Betrayal FAQ advises players to both use the AoD army selection when you have 30k vs 40k battles - but the overarching guidance there is to ensure that both players have access to the same options (and restrictions) regarding Lords of War and similar.  Going by that, I think it's important that you decide whether you're using Battleforged or AoD for building both lists.

[hisdudeness]

That FAQ is from 5th edition and pretty much superseded by the red books.  We play that the 30k FOCs are detachments and just add Objective secured to them.  Then just build as a normal 40k army.  Is quick, simple and doesn't unbalance anything.  Pretty seamless.

[Moonstalker]

That FAQ is from 5th edition and pretty much superseded by the red books.  We play that the 30k FOCs are detachments and just add Objective secured to them.  Then just build as a normal 40k army.  Is quick, simple and doesn't unbalance anything.  Pretty seamless.

 

6th, and that part of the FAQ can hardly be superceded as it directly addresses the issue at hand (30k vs 40k) in a manner that the red books don't.

 

Playing the AoD primary detachment FOC as an option for a Battleforged army is certainly one way to go, at least until we have proper 7th ed FAQs/guidance from FW.  It's not the direction I would go, but what is important is that you have a discussion with your group and come to a consensus about how you're going to adapt the Legions to 7th editions army building and scoring rules (or if you're going to adapt 40k armies to 30k's rules, or something in between).

[hisdudeness]

Sorry fat fingers and all..6th.  Can't really do the partial FAQ use, leads to all sorts of shenanigans.

The problem with your suggestion is that it isn't uniform.  If you make the AoD FOC a detachment (drop the allied part) and add OS; you unify 30k with the current edition, keep the basic purpose and abilities of the FOC, and make minimal changes.  Same with the Onslaught and Castellan FOCs but don't give them Objective Secured as they have their own special rules.

 

This is also the same FAQ that recommends not to mix 30k and 40k...

[amazarak]

"Command Tank upgrade allows one Predator in the squadron to fire one of its guns as through it had interceptor. Absolutely brutal on an Executioner."

 

Wow, that would be brutal. I don't actually see that written anywhere though. On pg.81 of the LACAL book it lists command tank as all allied units within 24" of the storm blade (?) May reroll failed morale checks? Has that been FAQ'd or just listed somewhere I haven't been able to locate?

[Moonstalker]

"Command Tank upgrade allows one Predator in the squadron to fire one of its guns as through it had interceptor. Absolutely brutal on an Executioner."

 

Wow, that would be brutal. I don't actually see that written anywhere though. On pg.81 of the LACAL book it lists command tank as all allied units within 24" of the storm blade (?) May reroll failed morale checks? Has that been FAQ'd or just listed somewhere I haven't been able to locate?

 

Welp, that's interesting.  FW dropped it, either intentionally or unintentionally (I would wager unintentionally?).  It's on page 238 of Betrayal, but I can't find it in LACAL.

[Brofist]

I'm 99% certain its a missprint. Its a copy paste from the stormblade entry they forgot to edit after pasting it into the wargear section. Command Tank gave other abilities to a squadron besides interceptor so it would be a massive retcon that makes no real sense. Most super heavy tanks get the command tank option with the 24" leadership buff, so I'm convinced its just bad editing on FWs side.

 

Comically they also screwed up with the Thudd Gun entry. Check out the wargear section- if you're going by the rules they can now fire two kinds of ammunition, including Heavy 4 S8 Armorbane, which makes them, hands down, the best artillery unit in the game. Again, this is most likely a missprint.