Valerian Posted October 2, 2014 Share Posted October 2, 2014 Not to mention that some tournaments here blindly refuse LoW altogether.... That's on those tournament organizers, though, not on the codex. If they want to limit some of the exceptionally powerful Forgeworld stuff fine, and if they're playing 'regular' games, then nobody should be taking any Apocalypse LoWs anyway, but there is no reason to limit the valid LoWs that are included in various Faction codices (which, so far, only include Draigo, Grimnar, Ghazkhull, and the Stompa). Exactly. The LoWs aren't remotely equal. What's a prolific Chapter Master going to do to a Titan? They don't have to be remotely equal. Whirlwhinds aren't remotely equal to a Land Raider, but they're in the same slot. And, it's not like you have to use your LoW against their LoW, you can use them however you see fit. Apart from Allied detachments and Paladins as Troops. Losing Paladins as Troops was a nerf to Draigo, sure, but has nothing to do with his LoW slot. He'd have lost that if he'd been left as an HQ choice in the transition from 5e to 7e, so it has no relevance in this thread. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/297451-is-lord-of-war-a-major-nerf/page/2/#findComment-3824051 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Faithwing Posted October 2, 2014 Share Posted October 2, 2014 They should have some form of equality, because they unlock a unit type that shouldn't be in standard games. A Whirlwind vs. Land Raider is not even close to Draigo vs. Superheavy. Not having to use them against a player who is, is 100% irrelevant. The point is, he can bring a Superheavy unit designed for a larger level of play into any old "fun" game. It's a painfully transparent way to sell their Apocalypse models they released with that book. This is my opinion. If people disagree, that's fine. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/297451-is-lord-of-war-a-major-nerf/page/2/#findComment-3824062 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valerian Posted October 3, 2014 Share Posted October 3, 2014 The point is, he can bring a Superheavy unit designed for a larger level of play into any old "fun" game. How so? How is he allowed to bring a superheavy unit into any old fun game? As I already pointed out, the only Lord of War choices for 'regular' games right now are Draigo, Grimnar, Thraka, and the Ork Stompa. All of the other Lords of War out there are for either Apocalypse or Escalation, so if you're not playing either of those you have nothing to fret over. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/297451-is-lord-of-war-a-major-nerf/page/2/#findComment-3824437 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted October 3, 2014 Share Posted October 3, 2014 (Doesn't the new IG Dex have a Baneblade in it?) People disallow Escalation? Seeing as Stronghold Assault is required to play most games (there are no longer rules for the Aegis in the core book, and I don't see anyone disallowing the ADL), it would seem silly to refuse Escalation as you're already playing a game with 'expansions'. Edit: If folk were disallowing 'expansions', I'd load up on StormRavens and StormTalons and go to town. Laughing that most folks access to Skyfire/Interceptor (Quad Guns and other Fortifications) had just been disallowed. Those Tau though. /cry Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/297451-is-lord-of-war-a-major-nerf/page/2/#findComment-3824447 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valerian Posted October 3, 2014 Share Posted October 3, 2014 (Doesn't the new IG Dex have a Baneblade in it?) Nope, the 6e Astra Militarium (IG) codex doesn't have a Baneblade, or any other "super-heavies", nor does it have anything designated as Lord of War; 6e codices hadn't incorporated that new FOC slot yet. People disallow Escalation? I don't have any personal experience either way, so I'd be interested to hear what the other players' experience is with this issue, but it seems to me that any expansion to the core rules would be something that both players would need to agree to in advance, whether its Escalation, Stronghold Assault, or Death From the Skies, etc. If Escalation games are the 'norm' in a player's experience, then I can certainly see some more legitimacy in the complaints against Kaldor Draigo occupying the LoW slot, but in that case you can always chose to leave him on the shelf, and take the Thunderhawk Gunship (from Escalation), or all of the various Forgeworld LoW choices that are available to the Grey Knights. V Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/297451-is-lord-of-war-a-major-nerf/page/2/#findComment-3824499 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted October 3, 2014 Share Posted October 3, 2014 I'd probably use a Thunderhawk, but I just can't afford one. ;) And 'counts-as' streaches only so far! :P Draigo though, I've got the official mini, and he's easier to kit bash your own. ;) Nope, the 6e Astra Militarium (IG) codex doesn't have a Baneblade, or any other "super-heavies", nor does it have anything designated as Lord of War; 6e codices hadn't incorporated that new FOC slot yet. Hot damn. I thought that was a shoe in. I've got some hat to eat... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/297451-is-lord-of-war-a-major-nerf/page/2/#findComment-3824509 Share on other sites More sharing options...
librisrouge Posted October 3, 2014 Share Posted October 3, 2014 Those sorts of Super Heavies pay for themselves really. If you were playing IG and had a Baneblade, wouldn't you use it? No, I don't. The Baneblade is too expensive for not enough firepower in an edition where Knights exist, are better, and have forced people to rise to the challenge of killing super heavies. I've played mine twice and each time it was, sadly, dead weight. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/297451-is-lord-of-war-a-major-nerf/page/2/#findComment-3824659 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Everon Posted October 3, 2014 Share Posted October 3, 2014 (Doesn't the new IG Dex have a Baneblade in it?)Nope, the 6e Astra Militarium (IG) codex doesn't have a Baneblade, or any other "super-heavies", nor does it have anything designated as Lord of War; 6e codices hadn't incorporated that new FOC slot yet. People disallow Escalation?I don't have any personal experience either way, so I'd be interested to hear what the other players' experience is with this issue, but it seems to me that any expansion to the core rules would be something that both players would need to agree to in advance, whether its Escalation, Stronghold Assault, or Death From the Skies, etc. If Escalation games are the 'norm' in a player's experience, then I can certainly see some more legitimacy in the complaints against Kaldor Draigo occupying the LoW slot, but in that case you can always chose to leave him on the shelf, and take the Thunderhawk Gunship (from Escalation), or all of the various Forgeworld LoW choices that are available to the Grey Knights. V GW store I play at has escalation and stronghold as normal games now. Only units not used are those that are straight up apocalypse. So not uncommon t o see baneblade c'tans lynxs lord of skulls and etc daily I dont have rules in front of me but I thought 7th made them normal but says to use escalation and stronghold for the units and fortifications Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/297451-is-lord-of-war-a-major-nerf/page/2/#findComment-3824732 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Faithwing Posted October 4, 2014 Share Posted October 4, 2014 That's sort of the point though. Escalation is a thing. The LoW slot adds yet another thing to agree on before starting a game. The longer the list becomes, the more players sort of feel like that guy who won't play against certain things, when in reality all they want is a regular old pickup game. I totally agree if all LoWs will amount to is a handful of reputable special characters, then no biggie. But even then, there's little reason for the slot to exist in the first place, especially if not every book is getting one (see the new Dark Eldar). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/297451-is-lord-of-war-a-major-nerf/page/2/#findComment-3824937 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dread Posted October 4, 2014 Share Posted October 4, 2014 That's a fact. I got the new DE dex and it got more of a work out then our GK. I think GW's ultimate goal may be to get all armies on the same level somehow, but I feel they a failing bad. My DA got the hatchet first, Eldar got some but still playable, GK I've really only got one problem, the loss of psybolt ammo but the DE...I've just really figured out that my army may stay put up. My GK on the other hand are swiftly becoming my go to army as well as necrons, until it gets hit. Oh, but as to the topic, I have Draigo and used him a lot, now I only run a Grandmaster or Libby. The LoW thing really kinda puts me out. For one thing we don't play escalation and don't really use that FoC for our armies around here. Honestly we don't play Apoc much even tho I dropped the $$ on the book, cards and templates. I hope others do get to use their LoW and I will love reading the bat reps that include them. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/297451-is-lord-of-war-a-major-nerf/page/2/#findComment-3825030 Share on other sites More sharing options...
IndigoJack Posted October 4, 2014 Share Posted October 4, 2014 You don't need a special force org chart to use a LoW. The combined arms detachment (as well as the NSF) has a LoW slot as well. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/297451-is-lord-of-war-a-major-nerf/page/2/#findComment-3825172 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quixus Posted October 4, 2014 Share Posted October 4, 2014 You don't need a special force org chart to use a LoW. The combined arms detachment (as well as the NSF) has a LoW slot as well.It's not that you need a new chart, but that you need to fill a special slot (the LoW slot) in an existing chart. You cannot take them as one of the mandatory slots (usually HQ or Troops). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/297451-is-lord-of-war-a-major-nerf/page/2/#findComment-3825174 Share on other sites More sharing options...
IndigoJack Posted October 4, 2014 Share Posted October 4, 2014 You don't need a special force org chart to use a LoW. The combined arms detachment (as well as the NSF) has a LoW slot as well.It's not that you need a new chart, but that you need to fill a special slot (the LoW slot) in an existing chart. You cannot take them as one of the mandatory slots (usually HQ or Troops). My post was in response to Dread, who said he didn't want to use the special force org chart in escalation Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/297451-is-lord-of-war-a-major-nerf/page/2/#findComment-3825293 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dread Posted October 4, 2014 Share Posted October 4, 2014 Oh, we don't have that book so I was speaking about the one in the BRB. But thanks anyways. We try to keep things as simple as we can while GW tends to keep mucking up the rules. Most of us here still use the standard FoC list we've had for years just for the ease of it, haha. Guess once the weather cools down and we get some time, my group will explore more into the rules and figure out how to use them. Thanks. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/297451-is-lord-of-war-a-major-nerf/page/2/#findComment-3825339 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valerian Posted October 4, 2014 Share Posted October 4, 2014 It's no different than any other slot. Do you play with Elites? Fast Attack? Heavy Support? Then if you want to play Draigo, take him as the LoW in a CAD or NSF and be done with it. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/297451-is-lord-of-war-a-major-nerf/page/2/#findComment-3825380 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reclusiarch Darius Posted October 5, 2014 Share Posted October 5, 2014 Why take Super-heavies, when you can take Knight-Titans? They literally have all of the good super-heavy rules, but dodge all of the drawbacks, plus they're 100% 'main rules' legal in 40k, cheaper than most super-heavies whilst being both shooty and stompy...plus you have absurdities like the Adamantine Lance formation, which is stomping tournaments all over the world. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/297451-is-lord-of-war-a-major-nerf/page/2/#findComment-3825546 Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeffersonian000 Posted October 5, 2014 Share Posted October 5, 2014 Why take Super-heavies, when you can take Knight-Titans? They literally have all of the good super-heavy rules, but dodge all of the drawbacks, plus they're 100% 'main rules' legal in 40k, cheaper than most super-heavies whilst being both shooty and stompy...plus you have absurdities like the Adamantine Lance formation, which is stomping tournaments all over the world. ... Knights are Superheavies, they just aren't LoW. SJ Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/297451-is-lord-of-war-a-major-nerf/page/2/#findComment-3825568 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reclusiarch Darius Posted October 5, 2014 Share Posted October 5, 2014 ... Knights are Superheavies, they just aren't LoW. That'll teach me for only 3 hours sleep. Meant LoW. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/297451-is-lord-of-war-a-major-nerf/page/2/#findComment-3825647 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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