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Mighty Wolves VS Tau. Need suggestions


hardimanm

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I have a freind visiting from out of town that has picked up a TAU army.  As I have very little experience playing this army can someone offer suggestions.

 

The game is 1750 points.  My playing style is quite straight forward.  My list has consisted of a Wolf lord on TW with TWC pack.  2 grey hunter units in rhinos, murderfang in drop pod, ven dread in drop pod, grey hunter unit in drop pod, blood claw pack and wolf priest in Strom Wolf.

 

I have a ton of Wolves so i can field pretty much anything.  But is my "typical" list going to get slaughtered by the massive amount of fire and low AP of the Tau weapons?

Quite possibly. Even in a pod, Murderfang most likely won't live long enough to assault. If the Ven dread has the shield, he might do better, which could allow your Rhinos to close. Also, I don't rate Claws in a flyer, it's too many points that won't be pulling their weight for most of the game, something you really can't afford against Tau. But overall, for my taste your list is lacking in firepower support, but you might be able to put enough pressure on the Tau with your pods to force a split in his attention/fire (which is what you want). But getting a complete drubbing (especially against a totally unknown army composition) is always a possibility with the twisted mess of broken that is the Tau.

that is what i was worried about. 

 

I may pull out Murderfang and just go with the ven dread with the sheild. 

 

As for fire support i worry that they will just be outshot by the Tau.  A 6 man long fang squad will be murdered by a Tau army.  I will probably use a Whirlwind and a Las cannon Predator to back up the approaching troops.  I may forgo any units in reserve except the ven to saturate the field with targets.  Instead of the stormfang i may go LR crusader.

 

Keep the advise coming guys

Good luck brother, 

 

A few suggestions as I play vs. Tau

 

If he sets up a gun-line back of board with a "space pope", all the units get supporting fire within a certain distance from one another. So your charges will get wiped out due to sheer volume of overwatch fire. So tactically you need to to either out-range them with template to scatter their formation or anything coming from reserves need to enter behind cover. Preferably out of LOS. You need to get Tau to weigh up if he will supporting fire or not. Basically, swap hi-lo. Charge with a unit that isnt precious to you. If he support fires, it has broken the chain and your second/third  unit charging wont suffer the same. He will try everything to keep you at range, so i suggest you saturate LOS blocking terrain as best possible. 

 

Also, be careful of "ignores cover" and "ignores LOS" Tau shenanigans. Marker lights and marker light drones can tilt the balance of power to Tau quite easy. So make sure you wipe pathfinders early. 

 

Suits can be a pain as they bring so many different weapons that even although they intercept during DS, they can still shoot during their shooting phase. 

 

Finally, I have found that if you go first, Drop a drop pod close with 5 BC's/GH's with flamers. If he doesnt intercept, template his firewarriors / drone blobs.

 

Tau are an excellent reactionary force. Their counters are very strong, however they can only counter once. Overwatch/intercept per unit. So bringing smaller units (2x 5GH's) instead of 10 is best. It forces him to use vs 1st or second unit. But he cant both. i.e. be prepared to sacrifice a few units to get your real hard-hitters in without getting countered early.

 

Lastly, their "space pope" will most probably be riding in a skimmer, as he has very little defences of his own. When you arrive fom DS with stormwolf, out-range his intercept units and try blow it up.

 

If he fields riptides, DS within 2 " of his units or riptide itself. his large blast will be mostly irrelevant as its too risky to scatter into his own units.

 

Good luck! 

About the fire support, not necessary. While it's true Fangs, Predators etc. won't win a shoot out vs Tau, that's not what you're trying to do. You're trying to force your opponent to split his attention. Especially given that your heavy weapons outrage his pulse rifles, with some clever positioning, he'll need to use his heavy stuff to counter your fire support (as Tau are pretty much always reluctant to advance), leaving your assault units less/unmolested. Or if he ignores your support, then you can have some fun, blo0wing up his dudes. Tau firing lines can evaporate with gratifying ease vs mass plasma cannon/frag missile fire. True, deep striking battle suits can ruin your day, but if they gun for your Fangs, they're not going for your TWC. It's a win-win for you.

Against shooty lists I try to give them too many things to handle at once. If they can pick and choose what to shoot and and spread it out over 2-3 rounds of shooting (and overwatch) you're doomed.

 

ZOOZ and everyone else had some good advice.  

I might add something since i read about them alot lately (want to have them as a second army).

there are 4 usefull marklight units:

a dronesquad with cheap commander , markerdrones in serveral squads , pathfinders and sniper drone teams (the humaniod one).

 

Pathfinder are Scouts so kill them fast and easy :  one of the best setups is one LongFang squad with ML and tarpet them with blasttemplates or make "cheap" droppod units to flame them. A Vinidictor is overkill but the large blast handles other units too. Landspeeders with Double Heavybolter is an excellent choice too.

 

A Dronesquad with commander is BS5 and a real threat since the important commander is the hardest to kill. The commader gives the BS2 Drones BS5 so kill him first.Vind/LF/LS

 

Same goes for the Snipersquad which i want to refer as the setup squad. The humaniod Units are BS5 and have markerlights. while they are max 3 of them and they have 6 shots alltogether. This can practically make sure u have at least 1-2 markerlights on you. so other Markerunits can use that to drown u in markerlights.Vind/LF/LS

 

The hardest to single out but the least useful are the Markerdrones in the shooting squad. Since they cant use their own Markerlight they have to make sure that the Drones and Units shoot at different targets which means he has to spend some points to do that.

 

My Priority is Pathfinders (easiest to kill)>sniper team>markerdrones in units. The CommandDrone team is highly unlikely to be deployed.

Over all and considering your Setup 3 Lone Speeder are the best option or 2x2LS. Since they are Cheap , Fast and Low Priority and can clean up the Marker Units.

 

Without Markerlight the Supperior Shooting of the Tau Drops to BS3/2 shooting which is medicore.

 

Riptides are suicide Units and can kill themselves in a single round. But they are really dangerous for you too. More than 1 (or too) is considered cheese.

If your opponent has a farsight commander squad with bodyguards in the 600-700 points range u can give up. This setup :cusss with sm or equal.

Mass deepstriking bolterfire, unleash as much as possible spread out over multiple units (if possible), less models means less shots, repeat in 2nd round than charge in for the kill. 

I get the idea that this is the best way to deal with Tau, trim squads down and drop there overal usefulness.

Riptides are suicide Units and can kill themselves in a single round. But they are really dangerous for you too. More than 1 (or too) is considered cheese.

If your opponent has a farsight commander squad with bodyguards in the 600-700 points range u can give up. This setup :cusss with sm or equal.

Um, how?

 

While I may be having a brain fart here, I just don't see it. The Nova reactor can only do one wound to the suit each turn. Yes he can get a large volume of 'gets hot' shots. However, most Riptides are run with the ion accelerator, which only gets hots with it's blast iirc, so no way to kill themselves in a single round. With the 18 (?) nova burst cannon shots it's theoretically possible, but given the Riptide has a 2+ save, it's ludicrously unlikely. You're averaging half a wound/turn fring 18 shots.

 

Riptides are suicide Units and can kill themselves in a single round. But they are really dangerous for you too. More than 1 (or too) is considered cheese.

If your opponent has a farsight commander squad with bodyguards in the 600-700 points range u can give up. This setup :cusss with sm or equal.

Um, how?

 

While I may be having a brain fart here, I just don't see it. The Nova reactor can only do one wound to the suit each turn. Yes he can get a large volume of 'gets hot' shots. However, most Riptides are run with the ion accelerator, which only gets hots with it's blast iirc, so no way to kill themselves in a single round. With the 18 (?) nova burst cannon shots it's theoretically possible, but given the Riptide has a 2+ save, it's ludicrously unlikely. You're averaging half a wound/turn fring 18 shots.

 

I said can and not will^^

Tau obviously can be a significant threat to any army, even a well-balanced SW list like you appear to have. Here are some recommendations for dealing with Tau that might work for you:

 

1 - Lone Wolves -- The ultimate "MSU unit," you can take a free Lone Wolf for every Troops choice and every WG/WGTDA pack you take. That means you could have a max of nine "free" (i.e. no FOC slot) Lone Wolves in a normal Combined Arms detachment. Give them TDA and a Melta bomb each and they can be a threat to most Tau targets. Better yet, they can absorb a good bit of firepower (2W, 2+/5++, FNP, Eternal Warrior), they can Deep Strike near enemy lines (and the risk of a single model scattering into a Mishap is pretty small), and if they get into close combat they should tie up/destroy almost any Tau unit except maybe a Riptide, Farsight, or a Commander with the Fusion Blade Special Issue Wargear. DSing in 3-5 Lone Wolves can overwhelm the Tau Interceptor defenses, thereby allowing your more important units like Stormwolves or Drop Pod Dreads to come in from Reserve unmolested. Even if Tau does kill multiple Lone Wolves, they have used up the firepower of several whole units, thereby diverting it from your main combat units like Wolf Lord/TWC, GHs in Rhinos, etc.

 

2 - Skyclaws -- Perhaps a bit of a surprise, since most people don't use them or consider them the most competitive of units. With the new codex, though, I think they have a new lease on life. Take a squad of 5 with two flamers and a WG Sky Leader with Combi-flamer, drop them next to the Tau gun line, and roast up a whole bunch of Fire Warriors, Kroot, and/or Ethereals. Your opponent will be forced to either to use a portion of his fire power to engage them (again, diverting it from your TWC charging up the field) or, if they ignore the Skyclaws, they can flame the Tau units a second time and them tie them up in assault, for all practical purposes taking them out of the game.

 

3 - Ulrik + multiple Long Fangs + Bunkers -- If you want fight "fire with fire," (i.e. taking Tau on in a shooting match), then I think one of the best potential combos you have is Ulrik and 2-3 Long Fang squads all in multiple Wall of Martyr Bunkers or a Firestorm Redoubt or at least behind an Aegis Defense Line. Bunkers/Firestorm Redoubts are preferred, since Tau's ability to Ignor Cover has no effect on Long Fangs in Bunkers shootng out of fireing points. Either way, if you equip multiple packs with MLs (old school 5th edition Space Wolf style) and have Ulrik near by, Ulrik's Preferred Enemy bubble increases their accuracy from 66% to 77% (for re-rolling 1s to Hit at BS4). Against Crises Suits and vehicles, Krak Missiles will do damage at long range very quickly, removing much of his combat power. Agaisnt softer targets, like Kroot, FWs, and Pathfinders then Frag Missiles (re-rolling 1s to Wound) should bring them down quite nicely. If you are very worried about Broadsides and Riptides, then change out the MLs for Plasma Cannons, which should be quite deadly with the Preferred Enemy buff.

 

4 - Mass Land Raiders -- A bit of an unconventional tactic, but one that can really be a game changer versus Tau. Given that Tau access to Fusion Blasters is limited to Crises Suits, Pirahnas, and Stealth Suits (and Riptides can each take a single TLed Fusion Blaster as well), if you can neutralize most of the Fusion Blasters early on, a force of 2-3 Land Raiders can wreak havoc against the bulk of most Tau armies, being impervious to Fire Warriors, Missilesides, and even most Riptide armament. Not only can the Land Raiders provide a lot of potent, mobile firepower against the Tau units (depending on what Land Raider varian you are using), but of course they offer and ideal platform for a cheap melee unit like a small pack of Blood Claws or a even a tricked out Lone Wolf to get to the Tau DZ and successfull charge the alien gun-line. Hammerheads with Railguns are a solid threat to Land Raiders as well, but with the changes to Vehicle Damage in 7th edition less so (even a Rail gun needs a 5+ to penatrate and then a further 5+ to destroy a Land Raider outright) and the fact that most Tau forces only have 1-2 Hammerheads max (usually HS is used by Missileside spam), this should not be too much of a threat to a multiple Land Raider battle group.

 

5 - Rune Priests with Tempestus Discipline -- If Pathfinders are the "force-multiplier" unit for Tau, then I think Rune Priests are the SW equivelant. Believe it or not, the much maligned Tempestus discipline may be your best bet when running multiple Rune Priests against Tau. Storm Caller is great, upping your cover save signficantly to help surive the Tau firestorm (think the above mentioned Ulrik/Long Fang combo behind an Aegis Line with Storm Caller for a 2+ cover save); Tempest Wrath reduces Tau BS by -1 and makes all Tau Jump, Jetpack, Flyer, and Skimmer units take dangerous terrain tests (that is a lot of the Tau army right there); Thunderclap is not a super powerful ability, but if you drop a Rune Priest or two in a DP in the middle of multiple squads of FWs or Kroot, it will cause solid damage; Murderous Hurricane is less useful than most, but can help with crowd control or taking out a bunch of Pathfinders in a single shot; Fury of the Wolf Spirits is great against all types of non-Riptide Battlesuits, including Stealth, Crises, and Broadside; finally, JOTWW, as mentioned by others above, works quite well against the low Initiative Tau, possibly allowing you to snipe down a Broadside or a named Ethereal or that pesky Buffmander with PENchip, MSS, C2Node, etc etc in a single Psychic phase.

 

6 - Logan on Stormrider -- Out the gate you would think (at least I did) that this would be very vulnerable to Tau shooting, but after I looked closer it turns out it is not. The key is the rules for chariots, which allow the owning player to allocate all shots of a single type against either the Chariot or the Rider. This means you can allocate the shots to the target that can best survive them. For example, if Tau uses Missilesides to bombard Logan with 12 S7 AP4 shots, then you can allocate them against Logan, since his Terminator armor will absorb most of these AP4 attacks. On the other hand, if the Tau targets Logan with a Crises Suits Team with dual Plasma Rifles (for 12 S6 AP2 shots total), then allocate them against the Chariot, since its AV12 and 4++ save is much better at absorbing them than Logan's Terminator Armor and Belt of Russ. With proper allocation, you should be able to make the most out of Logan's 4 wounds and Stormriders 3 HPs so that they can survive the firepower directed at them. Given the Chariot's mobility (it can move 12" and them go Flat out another 6" on turn 1), Logan riding Stormrider should be able to charge by Turn 2. On the charge, Logan gets 6 x S6 AP3 or 6 x S8 AP2 Unwieldy attacks, plus D6 x S6 Hammer of Wrath attacks (due to Chariot Rules) plus 4 S5 AP- Rending attacks (from Stormrider's rules). That means that Logan/Stormrider can make up to a total of 16 attacks on the charge, all either hiiting automatically (from Hammer of Wrath) or striking at WS6.... this is enough to tear apart the toughest Tau unit, even a Riptide or Tau Commander with Crises bodyguards. Bottom line, Logan/Stormrider has the survivability to absorb Tau shooting, the mobility to get accross the board, and the damage out when it charges to wreak havoc on any Tau unit it catches in close combat.

Here comes my trademarked advice. Are ready? Seriously, you will never expect it.

 

TWC!

 

Erm.. you were expecting it? Fine! *grumble*

 

But seriously, fast moving melee units like bikes, JP (to a lesser extend) and TWC are death to Tau. Their shooty spam can only kill so many TWC in one go.

The other thing is drop pods. A 5man PAWG unit with combi plasmas and Ulrik plus a unit of GH turn 1 with PE everything is going to mess him up.

 

But since there is plenty advice above, let me instead go into detail about what NOT to do.

 

1) Do not go mech, especially av12 or less. Missilesides are bad news for you, but Deathrain Crisis are worse. Usually there are 3 missile crisis with a buff commander in the unit and they all usually have target lock. This means each crisis can shot his twin-linked and tank-hunter missiles at a separate target. This murders even MSU mech. I played Tau, very successfully. They murder mech.

Even the great Land Raider won't stand long against their Fusion guns. Longer than most tanks though.

 

2) Do not shoot the Riptide. That is a huge mistake. Without marker lights a Riptide is about as threatening as a squad of cultists. They look scary but a Broadside or Crisis deals the real damage.

Focus on markerlights first. This renders Riptides useless for the most part unless he is amazing at rolling high.

After ML are dead, turn your attention to Crisis and Broadsides.

You will also often find markerdrones in crisis teams. Those units are no1 priority.

The only exception is drop pod alpha strike. If you do that, use it to kill Broadsides and Crisis right away.

 

3) Do not waste shots on a tanking commander who is protecting Crisis or Broadsides. Unless you can spam ap2 with massed combi plasma, don't. And even then, it is bettet spent on Crisis or Broadsides.

Outmaneuvre him and avoid the tankmander.

 

4) Do not assault his Kroot assault screen. They are there to give him a full overwatch with all units (if he is doing it right) plus another shooting phase. Shoot those Kroot down and assault the meaty core.

 

5) Do not assault with you best unit first. Assault with a cheap, disposable unit. Do a multicharge is you can. That way you can either waste his overwatch, or even prevent it by reaching melee.

 

6) Do not underestimate Tau melee. I freaking mean it. Firewarriors might be weak but I have seen Battlesuits mess things up. Commander gets you 4 attacks at I4 with high WS and S5. Drones get 1 S4 at I4 and Crisis get 2 S4 at I2 at WS2 (still hitting on 4s unless you have WS5 units).

Oh and Crisis have 2W and a 3+ while Drones have a 4+. Commanders come at 4W and T5 with a 2+ save if he buy that upgrade.

If you are going to melee, do it right. A small unit of Claws is not enough to kill a Crisis team. You need the same commitment like against Tactical Marines or Necron Warriors.

 

That's what I have for now.

Use their poor leadership against them, fire warriors, pathfinders and kroot will break and run without leadership boosts.

 

Harald or a  Thunderwolves with fists will wreck a sq of crisis suits. I also like the ap3 templates the wolves have access to.

 

Remember that most of the units can only shoot one weapon in overwatch.

Guest Drunk Guardian

I failed pretty miserably by utilizing poor tactics against the Tau.

 

My opponent deployed a Void Shield Generator w/ 3 shields, and 3 barricades in front of it. He deployed a unit of markerlight pathfinders on the battlements, and 3 squads of Firewarriors, one accompanied by an Ethereal and one by a Cadre Fireblade. Also had a Riptide and an Avatar of Khaine, a pair of Piranhas, and a Windrider Jetbike squad. 1250 game.

 

I took Harald with a squad of 4 Thunderwolves w/ Shields, a Wolf Guard biker squad, Sniper Scouts, two Predator Destructors, two 5x Skyclaws packs with 2x Meltaguns, and a Stormwolf (selected as DT for bikers).

 

We drew one of the Maelstrom games (forget the exact one, you generate cards by holding objectives at the end of your turn).

 

Anyway, I decided since he had a gunline it would be a good idea to get into close combat and thrash it. I had brought the Predators for the purpose of softening up my targets however the Void Shield Generator prevented them from doing their intended job. I charged all of my fast units straight up the board on turn 1 with the intent of getting a turn 2 assault. Unfortunately I didn't know / understand the rules of the Ethereal as I had never faced it before. Harald, the Thunderwolves, the Bikers, and both Skyclaw packs ended up getting shot off the table turn 1. Game over basically.

 

I did get a moral victory in that the Stormwolf showed up turn 2 and blew the Avatar off the board with a Machine Spirit Helfrost shot (that was awesome). The other guns aimed for the Generator and attempted to blow it sky high and promptly failed.

 

So I made a bunch of mistakes that I intend not to repeat, and I advise others to do the same:

 

1) Know the rules of your enemy, lest you get caught with your pants down not knowing about a super powerful buff which will lead to the obliteration of your army in the first turn.

 

2) Don't charge straight into the teeth of a good gunline, particularly Tau with tons of S5+ shots, markerlight support, and HQ buffs.

 

3) Exercise patience... if the situation isn't ideal, don't go into it.

 

4) Fire support... I didn't have nearly enough of it. Assault is great but without support you may be taking on more than you can chew.

 


1) Know the rules of your enemy, lest you get caught with your pants down not knowing about a super powerful buff which will lead to the obliteration of your army in the first turn.

 

Definitely. I recommend trying to find some way to download a copy of the codex and check the rules. I know it isn't exactly 'right', but I found that this is the best way to learn an army. If you do not want to risk it, borrow a codex in your store and read it.

 

 


2) Don't charge straight into the teeth of a good gunline, particularly Tau with tons of S5+ shots, markerlight support, and HQ buffs.

You have to prioritize your charges. Have an unimportant unit make a multicharge to either bind the enemy in CC or just eat his overwatch. Then the rest can go in and mop up. If you charge Tau with your best unit first, you will lose it.

 

 


3) Exercise patience... if the situation isn't ideal, don't go into it.

 

Agreed.

 

 


4) Fire support... I didn't have nearly enough of it. Assault is great but without support you may be taking on more than you can chew.

 

Not necessarily true. I run a successful assault army and the only real shooting I have is a Nemesis Dreadknight and a few Terminators. The real thing is pressure. If something big like a Dreadknight suddenly appears in front of an enemy, they will panic. Of cause, if you only run 1-2 TWC units or generally only a few units that pose a threat, they will get destroyed by focused fire. But if you have 3+ units, like, for example, 3 TWC units + 3 Iron Priests with Dogs + something else choppy, the enemy will either split fire, or he will have to deal with multiple full units in melee next turn.

You have to overload him and fire-support is only one of many possible ways of doing it.

Good news Brothers.  The wolves were victorious.

 

Ran off and left my army list at the office so I had to whip up one real quick before the game...so i ended up with this:

 

Wolf Lord 2xWolf claws

Wolf Preist

Land Raider crusader

Grey hunters in rhino(with lord)

Grey hunters in rhino

Blood claws in land storm fang(with Preist)  This unit actually started the game in the land raider crusader

Venerable Dread in drop pod

Murderfang in drop pod

Lone Wolf in TDA SS/TH

 

Dont remember the opponents army but it turned out he was running farsight enclave.  So he had 2 devil fish with fire warriors, 2 groups of crisis suits, 2 broadsides, sniper drones, 2ea 1 man deep striking crisis suits, 1 riptide, and 1 unit of stealth suits.

 

I rolled to see if anyone was outflanking.  Both rhinos with grey hunters go outflank.  the only thing i started with on the board was the LRC with the blood claws and preist.  I got first turn and  I moved full speed forward with the LRC and dropped the ven dread in near cover but right infront of his units.  On the tau first turn he fired everthing he had at the dread and finally exploded him.  Great news was this explosion was 6" and took out most of the sniper drone squads

 

On turn 2 the all but 1 unit came in from reserves.  The stormfang came in from my deploy zone and move 36 to engage the tau, the lone wolf dropped in near some crisis suits, murderfang dropped right in on top of the riptide, and the rhino with lord came in on the oppenents right size.  The combined fire of my forces destroyed the rest of the sniper drones, and 1 crisis team and drones.  The blood claws and preist charged his HQ crisis squad and slaughtered the entire squad.  On tau turn 2 i could tell that he was shell shocked by the sudden influx of units on the board.  The stealth suits and crisis team fired at the lone wolf only managing to strip him of 1 wound.  The broadsides used their velocity trackers to shot at the stormfang.  the stormfang jinked and remained unharmed.  The riptide nova charged and with that nasty large blast killed 8 bloodclaws with the devilfish killing 2 more.

 

on turn 3 my last grey hunter unit came in near the devilfish.  The stormfang moved forward towards the broadsides with the remaining blood claws moved toward the remaining crisis suit team.  Even firing all snap shots the stormfang managed to kill 1 broadside.  The grey hunters with lord fired pistols at the stealth squad and killed 3.  The LRC took 2 hull points off one of the devilfish.  The assualt phase was glorious for me.  The grey hunters/lord unit charged the stealth suits, murderfang charges the riptide, the claws and lone wolf charge the remaining crisis suit squad.  This wiped out the stealth suits and the riptide.  On tau turn 3 both single crisis suits deep strike in.  Both drop in my backfield to try to capture objectives.  His devilfish deployed their troops and tried to hold objectives.  The remaining broadside tried to down the stormfang but was unable to pentrate its thick armor.  In the assualt the lone wolf was finally felled but the blood claws took down 2 more of the suits and all of the drones.

 

Turn 4:  The stormfang dropped into hove mode while murder claw stalked closer to the lone broadside.  The grey hunters with lord moved to support the blood claws.  The full grey hunter squad closed in on the devil fish and fire warriors.  In the shooting phase the stormfang took out 1 devilfish with the LRC destroying the other.  The grey hunters fired on the fire warriors killing 3.  On the charge the grey hunters kit the firewarriors, murderfang charged the broadside, and the grey hunter/lord swept into the crisis suits.  All 3 units were completely destroyed.  The tau had very little left at this point but used the 2 lone crisis suits to capture a few objectives.

 

The final score was 12 to 8 in favor of the wolves.

 

Overall i was very pleased with my army.  The units supported each other very well.  Having both rhino's coming in from reserves changed my stratagy.  i probably would not have normally outflanked them but i wanted to try out every bell and whistle of the new codex i could.

A great report brother, sounds like you played to your strengths and denied the Tau theirs and also made them respond to your army rather than carry out their own plan which is the key to any winning strategy, well played and a flagon of mjod for bringing such glory to Russ and the Allfather ! thumbsup.gif

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