THE PORTCULLIS Posted October 4, 2014 Share Posted October 4, 2014 Most 7th competitive GK lists that are bound look like this... 1500pts Librarian 10 Terminators 5 Terminators 10 Interceptors 2 NDK Personally I use purifiers and 2 rhinos by removing the interceptors and a few other luxuries but essentially our best builds revolve around Librarian, Terminator and NDK forms. I'm very frustrated by this. Its destructive to my game group as I keep winning and I try to be as much a gent as possible about it but even I think I'm an ass hole for playing it over and over. So here's my challenge... Build me a 1500pt list with no terminators, no librarians and no NDKs. Make that list an all comers list that covers as many niches as possible. No allies! Oh and the list must be atleast within touching distance of being competitive because I'm not turning up just to smell my opponent. GO! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/297583-can-we-defeat-the-monobuild/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted October 4, 2014 Share Posted October 4, 2014 It's MSU then. HQ: Either the Brotherhood Champion, or Crowe. They are your two choices. And they both, suck. Elites: Purifiers. Troops: 1 5 man Strike Squad. All these with Rhinos/Razors. Use the three fast slots for more (stick combat Squadded Puris into them. Lets see what the points look like; HQ: Crowe (175) Elite: Purifier x10, Psycannon x 4, Razorback, LC/TLPG (385) Elite: Purifier x10, Psycannon x 4, Razorback, LC/TLPG (385) Elite: Purifier x10, Psycannon x 4, Razorback, LC/TLPG (385) Troop: Strike x5, Incinerator, Rhino (155) Fast: Razorback, LC/TLPG (75) Fast: Razorback, LC/TLPG (75) Fast: Razorback, LC/TLPG (75) Total: 1,710 Need to shave 200 points off this. HQ: Crowe (175) Elite: Purifier x10, Psycannon x 4, Razorback, LC/TLPG (385) Elite: Purifier x10, Psycannon x 4, Razorback, LC/TLPG (385) Elite: Purifier x5, Psycannon x2, Razorback, LC/TLPG (230) Troop: Strike x5, Incinerator, Rhino (155) Fast: Razorback, LC/TLPG (75) Fast: Razorback, LC/TLPG (75) Total: 1,480 The Puri's Combat Squad. Everyone mounts up. Crowe joins the Strike Squad. 13 WC, 6 units with Cleansing Flame. Psycannons are still the best 'all comers' weapon. Just on a terrible platform. CF for Hordes (and the single Incinerator), LC/TLPG for Armour/TDA. Psycannons to pew pew with when stationary and disembarked. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/297583-can-we-defeat-the-monobuild/#findComment-3825407 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hidicul Posted October 5, 2014 Share Posted October 5, 2014 Melts bombs on the justicar and three KotF will bring you to 1500 on the nose if you don't want to waste points. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/297583-can-we-defeat-the-monobuild/#findComment-3825534 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reclusiarch Darius Posted October 5, 2014 Share Posted October 5, 2014 Build me a 1500pt list with no terminators, no librarians and no NDKs. Make that list an all comers list that covers as many niches as possible. No allies! Oh and the list must be atleast within touching distance of being competitive because I'm not turning up just to smell my opponent. Grandmaster for HQ it is No Termies...urgh, fine. Min Strikes with incinerator it is No DK? Heavy Support is dead then, as there are literally no viable options there besides him. I think GL's Purifier spam is about as good as its gonna get man. And by good I mean incredibly medicore that dies to long range AP3/2 in a heartbeat. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/297583-can-we-defeat-the-monobuild/#findComment-3825547 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Coolpants Posted October 5, 2014 Share Posted October 5, 2014 Yeah, if we're not allowed terminators (I assume that means paladins too?) And if we're also trying to stay away from interceptors.. Our only viable unit left are purifiers. Which isn't necessarily a bad thing, just means we can't take advantage of psycannons or the NsF. And just purifiers Is even more bland than the terminator/dreadknight/interceptor combo. So we're not really solving anything :-/ Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/297583-can-we-defeat-the-monobuild/#findComment-3825659 Share on other sites More sharing options...
SonofTitan117 Posted October 6, 2014 Share Posted October 6, 2014 By not taking those options not only are we handicapping ourselves but I agree with Jbat360 that we are ending up with an even more bland end result. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/297583-can-we-defeat-the-monobuild/#findComment-3826317 Share on other sites More sharing options...
THE PORTCULLIS Posted October 6, 2014 Author Share Posted October 6, 2014 Paladins are allowed as they're considered to be one of the poorer choices of the codex. Obviously without those three choices you're handicapping yourself but that's my point entirely. If you try to deviate away from those three choices the codex is horrendous. Name me another codex where if you took away the top three choices you couldn't still build a competitive list. The internal balance of this codex is screwed, we shouldn't have a codex of write offs. Because terminators, the NDK and the Librarian are all so OP or undercosted it makes everything a bit pap. Purgation Squads Dreadnoughts Crowe Stern Strike Squads tax Salvo *Cries* Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/297583-can-we-defeat-the-monobuild/#findComment-3826534 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted October 6, 2014 Share Posted October 6, 2014 My list above will beat anything with Paladin in it. /challenge :) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/297583-can-we-defeat-the-monobuild/#findComment-3826557 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rurik the blessed Posted October 6, 2014 Share Posted October 6, 2014 Something like. NSF HQ Brother Captain, cuirass Brother Captain, Soul Glaive Elite 2x (10x Purifiers , 2 incinerator, 2 psycannon) 2x VenDread, autocannon, plasma cannon Troops 2x Strike squad, 1 incinerator Heavy 2x Land Raider Strike squads enter first turn burning some stuffs. Land raiders turbo boost with puri and Brother captains inside. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/297583-can-we-defeat-the-monobuild/#findComment-3826599 Share on other sites More sharing options...
THE PORTCULLIS Posted October 6, 2014 Author Share Posted October 6, 2014 Something like. NSF HQ Brother Captain, cuirass Brother Captain, Soul Glaive Elite 2x (10x Purifiers , 2 incinerator, 2 psycannon) 2x VenDread, autocannon, plasma cannon Troops 2x Strike squad, 1 incinerator Heavy 2x Land Raider Strike squads enter first turn burning some stuffs. Land raiders turbo boost with puri and Brother captains inside. Pretty good but my rough guess says that's well over 1500pts. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/297583-can-we-defeat-the-monobuild/#findComment-3826605 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted October 6, 2014 Share Posted October 6, 2014 You want Land Raiders? ;) HQ: Brotherhood Champion (150) Troop: Strike x5 (110) Heavy: LRR (245) Heavy: LRR (245) HQ: Brotherhood Champion (150) Troop: Strike x5 (110) Heavy: LRR (245) Heavy: LRR (245) Total: 1,500 Can't remember at work if the LRC is the same 245. If it is, swap it in. No room for MM upgrades, so you've only got 4 TLAC to pop AV14 yourself... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/297583-can-we-defeat-the-monobuild/#findComment-3826622 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reclusiarch Darius Posted October 6, 2014 Share Posted October 6, 2014 Because terminators, the NDK and the Librarian are all so viable and balanced it makes everything a bit pap. FTFY. Its not that Libbys, Termies and DK's are actually that powerful. They're strong, don't get me wrong. But the current meta murders them quite well. Libby's are amazing psykers, but they still die in challenges to anyone who can get through their 2+ save. Terminators are nice, but even at 33pts its still painful to lose them to bad armour saves or AP2. DK's are once again great, but they're nothing compared to FMC defenses and advantages. Even if those three units didn't exist in our codex, the other choices are still pathetically bad. Paladins melt to Riptides the same way Termies do, but they cost almost twice as much. The all-star 'when you hit rock bottom keep digging' example however is Purgators. I mean, seriously. NIGHT VISION. NIGHT. VISION. Not to mention Salvo on psycannons. That's not the final nail on the coffin, thats tossing the coffin into the Mariana Trench of bad. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/297583-can-we-defeat-the-monobuild/#findComment-3826623 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Coolpants Posted October 6, 2014 Share Posted October 6, 2014 Nemesis Strike Force: HQ Brother-Captain Bone Shard of Solo, Nemesis Daemon hammer Elites (x2) Dreadnought Missile Launchers, Twin-linked lascannon (10) Paladin, combat squaded. 4 psycannons, rest naked. Troops (10) Strike Squad, 2x incinerator, combat squaded Fast Attack (x2) Razorback, Lascannon and twin-linked plasmagun Teleport everything and either rush the vehicles up or keep them in cover depending on the weapons (I enjoy the twin linked plasma guns though) Hopefully the vehicles can provide some support or focus fire on a certain vehicle or squad. Or take the razorbacks as transports for objective secured.... But who wants object secured rhinos? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/297583-can-we-defeat-the-monobuild/#findComment-3826627 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hidicul Posted October 6, 2014 Share Posted October 6, 2014 You don't get objective secured with the NSF so no need to take them as DTs. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/297583-can-we-defeat-the-monobuild/#findComment-3826641 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rurik the blessed Posted October 6, 2014 Share Posted October 6, 2014 Something like. NSF HQ Brother Captain, cuirass Brother Captain, Soul Glaive Elite 2x (10x Purifiers , 2 incinerator, 2 psycannon) 2x VenDread, autocannon, plasma cannon Troops 2x Strike squad, 1 incinerator Heavy 2x Land Raider Strike squads enter first turn burning some stuffs. Land raiders turbo boost with puri and Brother captains inside. Pretty good but my rough guess says that's well over 1500pts. You're right then you can: HQ : Grand Master, soul glaive, psycannon Troop: Strike Squad, incinerator Elite: 10x Purifiers, 5 halberd, 1 hammer, 2 incinerator, 2 psycannon Ven Dread, autocannon, plasma cannon Ven Dread, autocannon, plasma cannon Fast: 5x Interceptors, incinerator 5x Interceptors, incinerator Heavy Land Raider Total : 1500 Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/297583-can-we-defeat-the-monobuild/#findComment-3826650 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Coolpants Posted October 6, 2014 Share Posted October 6, 2014 You don't get objective secured with the NSF so no need to take them as DTs. good catch :-P But yeah.. my list idea is just terrible lol Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/297583-can-we-defeat-the-monobuild/#findComment-3826655 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mouse83 Posted October 6, 2014 Share Posted October 6, 2014 There is really a problem with HQ, there are no cheap options. Other options than librarian are terribly overpriced and under-performing comparing to other HQ from SM codex. They cant have eternal warrior or storm shields, their survival realays solely on you casting random psychic powers in the right turn. Another problem is that, strike squads are just like HQ. Overpriced and under-performing in most contitions. Comparing termies for 165 pts, you can get 7 strikes or 5 termies, the choice is like obvious. What worked to me was deep striking GK strikes near the objective with a incinerator and try to blast whatever holds it. Which usually worked. GK codex troops choice limits also the number of bodies you can field. Which in an edition where u win for taking objectives is a problem. So you need allies. That`s why there are some in my list. I like your challlange so there is my list. [Nemesis strike force] HQ Brother captain (1) (teleport homer, curiass of sacrifice, domina) Troops Strike Squad (10) (2x incinerator, 2xhammer) Rhino Fast Stormraven (1) (TL-lasscanon,Typhon missile launcher, Hurricane bolters) Heavy Land Raider (1) Purgation squad (5) (4xincinerator) [inquisition] HQ Coteaz Ordo whatever inquisitor (rad granades) Elites 11 acolytes (3x plasma gun,8xboltgun) Chimera 11 acolytes (3xmeltagun) Chimera There is still about 50 points letf. So after some tinkering adding another strike squad is an option. Another option for GK to have land raider, is taking the crusader from codex Iniquisition and giving it psybolt ammunition Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/297583-can-we-defeat-the-monobuild/#findComment-3826760 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bionicman Posted October 6, 2014 Share Posted October 6, 2014 Hurricane Bolters without psybolt are meh imao. And why take the whatever psyker, only for nades? - inquistor - Hurricane Bolters + 50 points over = another squad of plasma/melta henchman in a chimera. Although I prefer them psybacks I have to admitt that the old and cheap chimera (5 fire points instead of 2) has its style. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/297583-can-we-defeat-the-monobuild/#findComment-3826784 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted October 6, 2014 Share Posted October 6, 2014 Mouse; No allies! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/297583-can-we-defeat-the-monobuild/#findComment-3826819 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mouse83 Posted October 6, 2014 Share Posted October 6, 2014 Mouse; No allies! technically inquisition is not an ally, and since they were in our previous codex we can treat them as a supplement to actual one does it sound sounds plausible? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/297583-can-we-defeat-the-monobuild/#findComment-3826843 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted October 6, 2014 Share Posted October 6, 2014 No. Otherwise the point of this exercise is bunk. Load up on Henchmen Squads and Psybolt HB Razors. If the units are not from Faction: Grey Knights, they shoudln't be used. Or I'm putting up 1,500 points of Culexes Assassins as the list to beat. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/297583-can-we-defeat-the-monobuild/#findComment-3826852 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happy-inquisitor Posted October 6, 2014 Share Posted October 6, 2014 Honestly I do not think there are very many codex armies that go full competitive without allies, none that can manage without allies or their best units. Having said that try this for fun Grey Knights CAD Brother Captain, Psycannon Brother Captain, Psycannon Paladin squad - 3 paladins Paladin squad - 3 paladins Strike squad, Meltabombs on Justiciar Strike squad, Meltabombs on Justiciar Stormraven, Multimelta and Assault Cannon Stormraven, Multimelta and Assault Cannon Stormraven, Multimelta and Assault Cannon Should be 1500 on the nose. I would keep the stormravens as pure gunships unless I need to move troops around late game to score. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/297583-can-we-defeat-the-monobuild/#findComment-3826853 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted October 6, 2014 Share Posted October 6, 2014 10 Strikes and 8 TDA bodies to kill turn one and you auto lose. And no Comms Relay so those Ravens might not even come in turn 2. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/297583-can-we-defeat-the-monobuild/#findComment-3826855 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happy-inquisitor Posted October 6, 2014 Share Posted October 6, 2014 10 Strikes and 8 TDA bodies to kill turn one and you auto lose. And no Comms Relay so those Ravens might not even come in turn 2. <Shrug> If you say so. If you are on planet bowling ball or you deploy carelessly then sure. It is no more or less competitive than equivalent lists from any other single codex with the best units taken out. Take all the battlesuits out of Tau perhaps. Of course if the opposing list has no such limitations then why do you think this exercise would ever come up with a build that will win anything like 50% of the time? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/297583-can-we-defeat-the-monobuild/#findComment-3826880 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted October 6, 2014 Share Posted October 6, 2014 Having 600+ points in a 1500 list off the table potentially over 2 turns, with only 18 bodies on the table is asking to be alpha'd. Doesn't even need to be the top units. Bikes. Cypher with Infiltrating Chosen. Drop Pods full of anything. Any long range shooting. Callidus Assassins. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/297583-can-we-defeat-the-monobuild/#findComment-3826886 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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