Are Power Fists on TWC really worth it?

[Frater Cornelius]

This is a question, that bugged me for a while because I trying to scrape together a few points for upgrades I feel will benefit me more than 4-5 Power Fist attacks.

 

It is generally accepted that S10 AP2 is generally a good thing. But comes the thing. An Iron Priest does the same, even better with AP1. Most of the time I have noticed that I1 is a burden against the opponents my regular TWC would engage.

Sure, it comes in handy against that occasional Walker or AV14 tank, but how often do you meet multiple Land Raiders these days anyway.

Furthermore, it gives me one more body I need to protect. I already need to look out for the Priests and my HQ. Having another vital model in there really makes positioning a problem that I have to think about way to long.

 

However, I wouldn't like to have the guy running around naked either. So here it comes the suggestion that might blow your mind:

Frost Axe or Power Axe.

 

You might think: "but it's 5 points less for S7 and it's still I1 and a Power Axe is even worse".

Indeed, but there are several benefits. For one, if I give my Fist guys those axes, I save 10-15 points overall, giving me space to invest in other areas that need it more. Second, that extra attack really makes a difference at times. Thirdly, I rarely find myself needing that instant death from S10. With Furious Charge given by Harald it's S8, enough to wound even T6 (and S10 is useless against most MC anyway) on 2s and ID T4 models.

I do not need to cut more points and thus I can invest in the Frost Axe, however, if I need to cut for something else, I will be content with regular Power Axes. Ultimately, they save points without reducing effectiveness against the regular TWC targets.

 

I basically have the option between 2 units with Frost Axes and 1 unit with a melta bomb (and only regular weapons) or 3 units with a Power Axe each (but no bombs).

 

Thoughts?

[knife&fork]

I think fists are worth it in a unit that's supposed to kill stuff and not just slow it down or tie it up.

They provide very stable and powerful performance whether you get the charge or not. Rends might average the same or better but the even performance of a fist makes planning ahead much less of a gamble.

 

As for other power weapons... When you need the fist you need the fist, and you'll regret saving a few measly pts on the inferior tool.   

[Praga Ashskull]

it depends on your meta, if you meet alot of list with multiple  AV14 I would go for the fist, other wise go for the power axe. the points you save may be put to good use.

[Frater Cornelius]

it depends on your meta, if you meet alot of list with multiple  AV14 I would go for the fist, other wise go for the power axe. the points you save may be put to good use.

 

My meta is uninteresting. I am talking about tournaments. Land Raider spam is rather uncommon (there is usually 1, 2 at most). Anything else has a weak rear armour.

 

 

I think fists are worth it in a unit that's supposed to kill stuff and not just slow it down or tie it up.

They provide very stable and powerful performance whether you get the charge or not. Rends might average the same or better but the even performance of a fist makes planning ahead much less of a gamble.

 

As for other power weapons... When you need the fist you need the fist, and you'll regret saving a few measly pts on the inferior tool.   

 

That is exactly the point. I do not send the TWC against targets that require Fists. Those that do are usually too slow to dictate the rules of engagement. TWC is there to engage infantry, elite infantry and the occasional MC. Axes give me one more attack and the same performance for less points. Wraithknights fall to massed Rending with Fists only being overkill. Imperial Knights usually fall to Iron Priests (and are banned on most tournaments anyway, just like any other Super-Heavy).

And it's usually much easier just to toss my Nemesis Dreadknight in the general direction of things that require S10 attention.

 

Here is also another thing. TWC have great damage output. So great, that sometimes you are done in the turn you assaulted, leaving you open. I am tempted to remove all weapons in favour of more Cyber Wolves, just so the TWC stays in combat for a turn longer to be safe from enemy fire. This might be detrimental against units that require some special attention though, so I guess Power Axes are an interesting option here.

[knife&fork]

 

Here is also another thing. TWC have great damage output. So great, that sometimes you are done in the turn you assaulted, leaving you open. I am tempted to remove all weapons in favour of more Cyber Wolves, just so the TWC stays in combat for a turn longer to be safe from enemy fire.  

 

 

This is something that comes up a lot but rarely happens, and it's certainly not something you should ever plan a unit like the TWC around! For those rare times that you have a solid chance of winning but not sweeping/killing your enemy it should be because you set it up like that in the movement phase. In other words, you move some models further away so that they'll miss the first round of combat, or perhaps we make a multi assault on several units to weaken the impact of the charge. 

 

You should have enough threat saturation going on so that winning a combat isn't a problem. 

 

Axes and fists are not the same, fists always max out at S10 unless you have been enfeebled or something. 

 

However, if you feel that the wolf-priest servo arm is enough, then why not go with power weapons of some kind (axes or mauls if not the SW specials)? I just advice against leaving them at home altogether. 

[Frater Cornelius]

I agree with you. Thanks for that positioning advice, haven't thought of that. That is preferable to leaving weapons at home.

 

Axes and Fists are the same against anything T4 and less or T6, which are the most common targets I engage with TWC. With the Nemesis and the 3 IP I feel I have enough anti-tank saturation and I will try to give the 3 Axes a run.

Do you think 2 Frost Axes + 1 naked or 3 Power Axes (were talking 1 weapon per unit)? Frost Axes have the benefit of ID T4 with Furious Charge. I think Power Axes might work better, because I can not always count on Furious Charge from Harald to be there and the most common T4 models with 2 or more wounds (outside of characters) are Crisis, whose units are usually too small to need ID, and Paladins, which I won't attack without an Iron Priest in tow.

Or, well, Mauls are also an option, but axes still have ap2.

 

Thoughts on which axe or rather the maul?

[knife&fork]

I agree with you. Thanks for that positioning advice, haven't thought of that. That is preferable to leaving weapons at home.

 

Axes and Fists are the same against anything T4 and less or T6, which are the most common targets I engage with TWC. With the Nemesis and the 3 IP I feel I have enough anti-tank saturation and I will try to give the 3 Axes a run.

Do you think 2 Frost Axes + 1 naked or 3 Power Axes (were talking 1 weapon per unit)? Frost Axes have the benefit of ID T4 with Furious Charge. I think Power Axes might work better, because I can not always count on Furious Charge from Harald to be there and the most common T4 models with 2 or more wounds (outside of characters) are Crisis, whose units are usually too small to need ID, and Paladins, which I won't attack without an Iron Priest in tow.

Or, well, Mauls are also an option, but axes still have ap2.

 

Thoughts on which axe or rather the maul?

 

I've only seen a few bat reps so far but it doesn't seem like you've had any real opposition yet? Could you handle a serpent spam list that blasts you for two turns and then skadoodles across the board? Dual chapter masters with grav, maybe with some thunder fire cannons for support?

 

Anyway I don't think ID on T4 models is something that is needed these days. 

Tau suits, non buffed SM characters, tyranids mid size monsters and all such are pretty weak units now. TWC should wipe those with no problem. Uber-ID on anything with helfrost is very nice on the other hand.

 

I like fists (and mauls on models with smash or rending) because of the high base strength. Knowing that you will autopen rear AV10 is a very nice insurance against cold dice. :)

 

How are you going to equip the different models in terms of power weapons?

I think for instance that if you have a secondary character to tank challenges, then a Lord with power maul is really nice for maximizing his high I.

If the expensive character is the duelist of the squad then he should obviously get the best gear and the axe/fist goes on a non character model. 

[Frater Cornelius]

The only real opposition I have had with the TWC+GK list was a Necron game that wasn't very favourable in terms of the setup. Fists were not needed. Outside of that I had plenty of games where I ran 2 TWC units and PA Marines, like against White Scars with Grav Cents, Grav bikes and Tanking Chapter Master cheese master general. Those were very close but even there, fists were not needed. There were a few other games, none of which really needed that Fist.

 

Now that I got a bit more comfortable with my pure TWC list, I will slowly move back up the difficulty. I usually start fairly low when I try something new to get a feel for it while not being under pressure. In the next few weeks I will try and get those hardcore players on the line to push it.

 

I think I will do it with 1 hidden Power Axe per unit. My pack leader is usually just there to hold the challenger or simply tank low ap shots with shield while the rest of the unit mops up. He is also there to protect my IP and, should it come to this, give the entire unit PE (Characters) to help him finish the challenger.

[jerrys]

It does seem like a power axe would be both cheaper and better against a lot of stuff (infantry, including terminators). Besides land raiders, I think it is worse against dreadnoughts (I don't know if you fight them often? But, if the iron priest is still alive then it doesn't matter anyway. How often does it come up that one of your units is missing its IP?) ... if you try it, I think I try power axes, not frost axes -- no sense in going halfway.

edit: I guess it could also be worse against an Iron Arm psyker. (again, no idea how common that is, and if you still have the IP then it probably doesn't matter. And often the TWC strength is high enough anyway.)

[knife&fork]

Fangsword of the icewolf isn't a terrible pick for a TWC lord though. 

[Guest Drunk Guardian]

This is a question, that bugged me for a while because I trying to scrape together a few points for upgrades I feel will benefit me more than 4-5 Power Fist attacks.

 

It is generally accepted that S10 AP2 is generally a good thing. But comes the thing. An Iron Priest does the same, even better with AP1. Most of the time I have noticed that I1 is a burden against the opponents my regular TWC would engage.

Sure, it comes in handy against that occasional Walker or AV14 tank, but how often do you meet multiple Land Raiders these days anyway.

Furthermore, it gives me one more body I need to protect. I already need to look out for the Priests and my HQ. Having another vital model in there really makes positioning a problem that I have to think about way to long.

 

However, I wouldn't like to have the guy running around naked either. So here it comes the suggestion that might blow your mind:

Frost Axe or Power Axe.

 

You might think: "but it's 5 points less for S7 and it's still I1 and a Power Axe is even worse".

Indeed, but there are several benefits. For one, if I give my Fist guys those axes, I save 10-15 points overall, giving me space to invest in other areas that need it more. Second, that extra attack really makes a difference at times. Thirdly, I rarely find myself needing that instant death from S10. With Furious Charge given by Harald it's S8, enough to wound even T6 (and S10 is useless against most MC anyway) on 2s and ID T4 models.

I do not need to cut more points and thus I can invest in the Frost Axe, however, if I need to cut for something else, I will be content with regular Power Axes. Ultimately, they save points without reducing effectiveness against the regular TWC targets.

 

I basically have the option between 2 units with Frost Axes and 1 unit with a melta bomb (and only regular weapons) or 3 units with a Power Axe each (but no bombs).

 

Thoughts?

 

Personally I think Fists work best on low WS, low attack count units. I also think that just on sheer value alone, a Fist is a much better purchase on a Thunderwolf Cavalry than most other Marines. For the points you spend, most other Marine units would need to spend double to get the same amount of attacks at -2 strength. So in conclusion, a non-Champions Thunderwolf at WS4 is probably the most optimal model to stick a fist on (not the pack leader).

 

Swords / Axes / Claws do much better on higher WS and initiative. The role of the fist is to land one really devastating blow, not to stack wounds. You take the fist as a utility options for the times normal killing power just doesn't suffice. It's a utility tool that Thunderwolves just do better than anyone else thanks to not having to pay increased cost for increased benefit.

 

Once you up the TWC to WS5 it gets a little murkier, I'd be more likely to go with the other options at that point.

[Kasper_Hawser]

Fangsword of the icewolf isn't a terrible pick for a TWC lord though. 

 

Actually Fangsword is a little wasted on TWC. Fangsword's special rules is +1 Strength, Hellfrost and Rending. Rending is wasted because TWC makes ANY weapon rending. Hellfrost isn't that reliable, and +1 strength can be obtained via wolf claw or frost sword, both of which are cheaper.

 

I rather put Fangsword on footlord, and give TWC either Krakenbone for constant AP2, or wolf claw to get the +1 Strength and Shred.

[Frater Cornelius]

Well, I exclusively play COF, because I am not prepared to give up WS5 for TWC. It's just so amazing given that so many armies sport WS4. I also do not have any Wolf Lords to put anything on them. I play Harald. If I was to include a second Lord, I'd equip him with a Krakenbone Sword + Fellclaw's Teeth, no questions there. This is mainly about the regular WS5 TWC.

[knife&fork]

 

Actually Fangsword is a little wasted on TWC. Fangsword's special rules is +1 Strength, Hellfrost and Rending. Rending is wasted because TWC makes ANY weapon rending. Hellfrost isn't that reliable, and +1 strength can be obtained via wolf claw or frost sword, both of which are cheaper.

 

I rather put Fangsword on footlord, and give TWC either Krakenbone for constant AP2, or wolf claw to get the +1 Strength and Shred.

 

 

Rending might be wasted but I think you underestimate the fangsword a little. That remove from play extra rule is something that will scare your opponent if they have important stuff with multiple wounds as EW is no protection from it. Without AP2 it makes the lord a supporting character again, but that's fine with the way challenges work now.

 

A matter or preference of course but as far as relics go it's not a very expensive one.

 

Well, I exclusively play COF, because I am not prepared to give up WS5 for TWC. It's just so amazing given that so many armies sport WS4. I also do not have any Wolf Lords to put anything on them. I play Harald. If I was to include a second Lord, I'd equip him with a Krakenbone Sword + Fellclaw's Teeth, no questions there. This is mainly about the regular WS5 TWC.

 

Army wide WS 5 is indeed very nice. Might not seem like much but just like a 3+ instead of 4+ save it means that you pass most of the time instead of half the time. Really adds up during a game.

[Hear da Lamentation]

I think they certainly are worth it for the small addition in cost. The added ability to instakill such a wide range of stuff is also not to be sneezed at

[Rift Blade]

IMO, IF you're taking a power fist, TWC make the most of it. As for is it wasted, I .would say no but I would only run per army. Yes it means you careful on targeting but most games I;ve played, that's not to much a concern.

[Donkalleone]

Just a Question to make something Clear for me. The TWC doesnt have the stupid restriction that a Storm Shield and Powerfist arent able taken together like the WG TDA?

[Frater Cornelius]

They do not.

[viddar]

I think in general a powerfist for TWC is worth it. That said I think you get diminishing returns on each one past the first. So if your running several iron priests I wouldn't advise one.

[Fang of Morkai]

Personally I run my TWC with all stormshields and 1 power fist per 4 model squad and that is it.  Keep them cheap and tough.  I am not a fan of spamming power weapons all over the squad.  Costly and not that much more efficient.