Blackout2014 Posted October 5, 2014 Share Posted October 5, 2014 I've been reading the Horus Heresy novels for some time now and I wonder if some of the double crosses have ever been bought up. 1. I know that Horus is dead so it can't be bought up in the current timeline, but did Magnus ever address with Horus the fact he ordered Russ to exterminate his legion? 2. Did Mortarion and Typhus ever have a chat about the fact that Typhus set him up to fall to Nurgle? 3. Did Perturabo and Fulgrim ever meet after Fulgrim betrayed him in Angel Exterminatus? For that matter why did Peturabo become a daemon prince after being so horrified at Fulgrims change? I'm sure there are plenty of examples, but those are the ones I could think of at the moment. Was there ever repurcussions of any of these actions? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Forté Posted October 5, 2014 Share Posted October 5, 2014 I'm sure they'll come up at some point in the HH books. But every great fictional stories have plots which never get finished. That's why you get sequels (looking at you Star Wars!). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goreshed Posted October 5, 2014 Share Posted October 5, 2014 1. Per the old cannon it was the Emperor who wanted Magnus to come back in, not this whole hoodwinking of Russ. It may or may not come up later but we will see, specially with the Rubric and how that works into the Thousand Sons. 2. Thats a tough one. To me personally I think it was one of those things that good old Morty accepted because Nurgle was already on to him from the onset. The world he landed on? Obviously Nurgle touched it. The entirety how his legion was organized and such? To much of a coincidence for lil old Typhus to mastermind himself. 3. Fulgrim doing what he did to Perturabo never happened in the old fluff so this is new and something I would be keen to look out for. Keep in mind they will no doubt see each other again in the skies over Terra so I'm sure there will be a reckoning there. Perturabo was disgusted by how Fulgrim's legion fell. How Slaanesh works in general. However, he doesn't even raise an eyebrow at what the Dark Mech allies he has with him do. Which is why I don't think he has that much of an issue raising to demonhood. Now if Slaanesh raised him to godhood I think he would have an issue, but Chaos in general? No. Keep in mind that he follows a path once his feet hit it. He has started the walk down the Chaos tainted yellow brick road and will see it to through the end which usually means either spawnhood or demonhood. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loesh Posted October 5, 2014 Share Posted October 5, 2014 I'm sure they'll come up at some point in the HH books. But every great fictional stories have plots which never get finished. That's why you get sequels (looking at you Star Wars!). And sometimes it's best if some things remain a mystery, which is why prequels can wind up hurting the material. (I'm ALSO looking at you Star Wars.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strazhakov Posted October 5, 2014 Share Posted October 5, 2014 For that matter why did Peturabo become a daemon prince after being so horrified at Fulgrims change? Peturabos Daemon Princehood is a very enigmatic topic now that Chaos Undivided doesn't exist anymore (except for Be'lakor) and Princes need to be marked by a specific God. Primarchs may bend the rules a little because of their status and genetic makeup but in the end I'd guess theyd fall under the same rules. The Gods are jealous and all that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
incinerator950 Posted October 5, 2014 Share Posted October 5, 2014 I was under the assumption that Lorgar and Perturabo's Demonhood were also exceptiona. Then again, Princes having to become particularly aligned was another stupid idea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xenith Posted October 5, 2014 Share Posted October 5, 2014 1) Did Magnus ever find out that Horus made that order? Even then, Horus could just deny it. 2) Same with erebus/Horus Kor Phaeron/Lorgar, the underling began the descent into corruption, but the Primarch sees the potential of chaos, and embraces it. Look at how Lorgar treats Erebus in Betrayer. Erebus still thinks he is orchestrating the heresy, but since Lorgar communed with chaos, he is running the show, once again, until Horus was shown the dark. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goreshed Posted October 5, 2014 Share Posted October 5, 2014 The warp is still the warp and inside of it you have the chaos gods. Makal or however you spell the name hasn't been around since Rogue Trader days. But even after that there was still Chaos Undivided. It hasn't been until these last (two?) codexes that you HAD to pick a god. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
incinerator950 Posted October 5, 2014 Share Posted October 5, 2014 The last one. Malal? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron_Within Posted October 5, 2014 Share Posted October 5, 2014 I've always thought on the Daemon Primarch front Purturabo and Lorgar would be the exception. See one could ascend through technomancy, and the other through daemonology. I'm more than sure there are unresolved issues among traitors. MY own personal opinion is they all hate each other and would stab each other in the back ultimately. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
incinerator950 Posted October 5, 2014 Share Posted October 5, 2014 I'm under the impression it's respect, hatred, and loyalty to their respective causes. Chaos is too diverse to have as many subtleties as Loyalists. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackout2014 Posted October 6, 2014 Author Share Posted October 6, 2014 For that matter why did Peturabo become a daemon prince after being so horrified at Fulgrims change? Peturabos Daemon Princehood is a very enigmatic topic now that Chaos Undivided doesn't exist anymore (except for Be'lakor) and Princes need to be marked by a specific God. Primarchs may bend the rules a little because of their status and genetic makeup but in the end I'd guess theyd fall under the same rules. The Gods are jealous and all that. Yeah I know that the books contradict and mess up some older (and newer) fluff. It is also strange now that the Chaos Undivided thing is not supposed to exist. It messes up Abaddon (Not a Daemon Prince, but The Chosen One), Peturabos, and Lorgar's ascensions. I don't know alot about earlier Iron Warriors fluff, but the books paint Peturabo as a follower of Horus and not Chaos. The same for Mortarion. So their ascensions seem odd in this light. It makes me wonder if we will ever get a HH novel in which they look at their current state and go "Well this sucks........" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackout2014 Posted October 6, 2014 Author Share Posted October 6, 2014 1. Per the old cannon it was the Emperor who wanted Magnus to come back in, not this whole hoodwinking of Russ. It may or may not come up later but we will see, specially with the Rubric and how that works into the Thousand Sons. 2. Thats a tough one. To me personally I think it was one of those things that good old Morty accepted because Nurgle was already on to him from the onset. The world he landed on? Obviously Nurgle touched it. The entirety how his legion was organized and such? To much of a coincidence for lil old Typhus to mastermind himself. 3. Fulgrim doing what he did to Perturabo never happened in the old fluff so this is new and something I would be keen to look out for. Keep in mind they will no doubt see each other again in the skies over Terra so I'm sure there will be a reckoning there. Perturabo was disgusted by how Fulgrim's legion fell. How Slaanesh works in general. However, he doesn't even raise an eyebrow at what the Dark Mech allies he has with him do. Which is why I don't think he has that much of an issue raising to demonhood. Now if Slaanesh raised him to godhood I think he would have an issue, but Chaos in general? No. Keep in mind that he follows a path once his feet hit it. He has started the walk down the Chaos tainted yellow brick road and will see it to through the end which usually means either spawnhood or demonhood. I think the new fluff still has the emperor sending Russ to bring him back to Terra, it just adds Horus chaining the orders to wipe the Thousand Suns out. With the hope being they would wipe each other out and deprive the Emperor of two loyalist legions. I never really got the impression that Horus wanted to convert Magnus in the newer stories. If he did want him on his side he sure did a crappy job of it since he wiped out almost all of the legion (Except for a Thousand of course). Good point for Mortarion and Perturabo. I am always interested in the ones who joined Chaos but hated warp corruption. It seemed like Curze was the only one who didn't fall to Chaos (And maybe Alpharius/Omegon, who knows?) I'm always interested in the traitors who joined Horus but held Chaos at arms length. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goreshed Posted October 6, 2014 Share Posted October 6, 2014 At the begining of the Heresy it was more of "Let's follow Horus" for the majority (at least the feeling I am getting with the new fluff) but you have your exceptions like the Word Bearers and some legionaries within the Death Guard, Sons of Horus and Emperors children. However I strongly believe that it is not until after Horus falls (or towards the end of the 7 year march to Tera) that the majority of the legionaries realize just what they have gotten in to/embrace Chaos. The new fluff is more of Malcador sending for Russ to bring back Magnus then you have Valdor and Horus calling for Russ to be more violent about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prodigal Son of Magnus Posted October 6, 2014 Share Posted October 6, 2014 When have Undivided Princes ever been an exception to the rule? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
incinerator950 Posted October 6, 2014 Share Posted October 6, 2014 When the 6th codex made it arbitrarily impossible because marks ended up as demons of. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conn Eremon Posted October 7, 2014 Share Posted October 7, 2014 Does the fluff say anything on it, or is it the rules that say you can't have an Undivided Prince? Because if it's the latter, then it's about as relevant to the lore as a list of common Squat surnames or a Bretonnian's guide to Fenris. If it's the former, then that is strange. How does Lorgar ascend? Now that I think about it, I've always just assumed it went without saying, him being the orchestrator of the Heresy. But I am not actually sure on the details of it. I know Perturabo ascends by making a mockery of the Imperial Fists. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron-Daemon Forge Posted October 7, 2014 Share Posted October 7, 2014 3. Fulgrim doing what he did to Perturabo never happened in the old fluff so this is new and something I would be keen to look out for. Keep in mind they will no doubt see each other again in the skies over Terra so I'm sure there will be a reckoning there. Perturabo was disgusted by how Fulgrim's legion fell. How Slaanesh works in general. However, he doesn't even raise an eyebrow at what the Dark Mech allies he has with him do. Which is why I don't think he has that much of an issue raising to demonhood. Now if Slaanesh raised him to godhood I think he would have an issue, but Chaos in general? No. Keep in mind that he follows a path once his feet hit it. He has started the walk down the Chaos tainted yellow brick road and will see it to through the end which usually means either spawnhood or demonhood. If you get the Heresy novel Angels Exterminatus, this will cover the III & the IV legion. Also just to say comment 1 on the originally post. Not sure about the Thousand Son's Primarch, but Khayon? did make a comment about it in the recent release Talons of Horus novel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strazhakov Posted October 7, 2014 Share Posted October 7, 2014 Does the fluff say anything on it, or is it the rules that say you can't have an Undivided Prince? Because if it's the latter, then it's about as relevant to the lore as a list of common Squat surnames or a Bretonnian's guide to Fenris. If it's the former, then that is strange. It's both. The rules say you can't have unmarked Daemon Princes. The fluff in the Be'lakor dataslate says that he's the first and last unmarked Prince. The Gods don't like to share pawns. Even Abbadon himself, if he wanted to in the first place, could only ascend if he picked a God first. They all want him for themselves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lexington Posted October 7, 2014 Share Posted October 7, 2014 It is also strange now that the Chaos Undivided thing is not supposed to exist. It messes up Abaddon (Not a Daemon Prince, but The Chosen One), Peturabos, and Lorgar's ascensions. I never really got "Undivided" Daemon Princes. There's not independent Chaos gestalt that can just grant marks, like some UN of Hell, so how does a soul get elevated without a patron god? Abaddon makes enough sense - he's earned the favor of all four Chaos Gods, and is marked by each. I always took it that the same thing happened to Lorgar, but Peterabo has never really been explained well. The whole "Mark of Chaos Undivided" era of background caused some weird background. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted October 7, 2014 Share Posted October 7, 2014 It is also strange now that the Chaos Undivided thing is not supposed to exist. It messes up Abaddon (Not a Daemon Prince, but The Chosen One), Peturabos, and Lorgar's ascensions.I never really got "Undivided" Daemon Princes. There's not independent Chaos gestalt that can just grant marks, like some UN of Hell, so how does a soul get elevated without a patron god? Abaddon makes enough sense - he's earned the favor of all four Chaos Gods, and is marked by each. I always took it that the same thing happened to Lorgar, but Peterabo has never really been explained well. The whole "Mark of Chaos Undivided" era of background caused some weird background. Yeah, it created the idea of "Undecided" which doesn't work too well when it makes more sense to think of it as "United". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
incinerator950 Posted October 7, 2014 Share Posted October 7, 2014 It is also strange now that the Chaos Undivided thing is not supposed to exist. It messes up Abaddon (Not a Daemon Prince, but The Chosen One), Peturabos, and Lorgar's ascensions.I never really got "Undivided" Daemon Princes. There's not independent Chaos gestalt that can just grant marks, like some UN of Hell, so how does a soul get elevated without a patron god? Abaddon makes enough sense - he's earned the favor of all four Chaos Gods, and is marked by each. I always took it that the same thing happened to Lorgar, but Peterabo has never really been explained well. The whole "Mark of Chaos Undivided" era of background caused some weird background. There was a time where all the gods and lesser gods or some Warp Ascension could grant it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hidicul Posted October 7, 2014 Share Posted October 7, 2014 I always saw unmarked princes as a way to field a fluffy Malice DP. Now I have to decide between Tzeentch, Slaanash or Khorne. My army has become a mix of marks deep ending on what I need the unit to do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
incinerator950 Posted October 7, 2014 Share Posted October 7, 2014 Unfortunately, GW sees marks as our specialist rules and our tactics. It's going to derail the topic further, so I'm done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goreshed Posted October 7, 2014 Share Posted October 7, 2014 IP I was meaning more as to them explaining the events -after- Angel Exterminatus, once both see each other again on Terra. incinerator has the jist of it. It is GW's way of forcing our hands when we don't want to do something they want us to do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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