Why Cyber-Wolves are hilarious(ly broken)

[Frater Cornelius]

Some of you might have noticed that Cyber Wolves are Characters. Well, it makes sense, because they are a sergeant upgrade for Fenrisian Wolves. So, you might have looked at it and forgotten about it, much like I did until recently.

But then I noticed something. Those 4 Cyber Wolves that can be bought for an Iron Priest are all Characters. When I really though of it I needed to laugh out loud because this opens so many possibilities to just troll the opponent.

First up, against Necrons. Command Barges are everywhere. Your Iron Priest runs into one. The Necron player laughs and challenges, thinking that the Ld8 of the IP is not enough to resist Mindshackle Scarabs and that he will ID himself. Well, too bad, the Cyber Wolf accepts. I don't care of he fails the test, because given the new challenge rule 'when the challenger is the only model left, models outside the challenge can hit him' the Iron Priest will just whack the Lord or his Chariot with his S10 and kill them good.

Same can be made with those Destructor Lords that usually go with Wraiths. Just avoid the Scarab test by tossing a Cyber Wolf there while the IP just whacks away at the Wraiths.

Next scenario. You want to kill that Nemesis Dreadknight, that seems to be everywhere recently. Iron Priests are awesome at that, but the NDK is a character and he will challenge your TWC dude or the IP and prevent some damage that way or at least deal damage to your unit. Nah, Cyber Wolf accepts.

There are so many challenge scenarios where you can just smash the opponents entire plan with that simple move.

But wait, there is more! Imagine your Cybers are at the front of a TWC unit to tank small shots like Bolters, Pulse, Tesla or Gauss. But suddenly AP4 or even AP2 shots come their way to clear them! No problem, you just put a SS TWC behind the Wolf and start doing 'Look out, Sir' to mitigate some of the damage.

I think I didn't even list all the hilarious possibilities with Cyber Wolves. I am so trolling my next opponent with that

[Kastor Krieg]

One potential problem I can see. I do not think you can have a unit full of characters.

[Frater Cornelius]

Sure you can. You can even have a unit full of Independent Characters. You buy Cyber Wolves as pieces of equipment for the Iron Priest and they follow the rules of the equipment wolves as per the SW codex, meaning that equipment (Cyber) Wolves are treated as one unit with the buyer and they can join a further unit if the buyer has IC rule.

[Jolemai]

This means a Cyberwolf can be your Warlord...

[Jochteas]

This means a Cyberwolf can be your Warlord...

No because you can't take it by itself. Cyber wolves (Since they are a pack animal after all) can only be taken part of a group. Either with an IP or Fen wolves.

[Rune Priest Jbickb]

This means a Cyberwolf can be your Warlord...

O damn this is going to be glorious...

 

This means a Cyberwolf can be your Warlord...

No because you can't take it by itself. Cyber wolves (Since they are a pack animal after all) can only be taken part of a group. Either with an IP or Fen wolves.

warlord only has to be a character, nothing says he has to be bought alone as far as I know.

[Emperors Immortals]

This...no....really?

[codyrstuart]

Sweet, merciful baby Jesus... I think all my fen wolves just became cyber wolves.

[Valerian]

Yes, you could designate a cyberwolf to be your Warlord, which would be fun as heck to do just for the reaction of your adversary.

 

As to Dreadknights, however, it's no guarantee, as excess Wounds will spill over to the unit (no more lost Wounds in Challenges in 7e), so you'll need to hide that IP at the very back and hope the DK doesn't destroy the whole unit in one go, which he can do with a Nemesis Greatsword and some lucky rolls.

 

V

[shandwen]

Also remember that in the current ruleset challengers are not required to be in base to base, so mindshackle scarabs are anon-issue if you place your challenger in the rear of the unit (bubblewraped). Your random other guy takes the scarab effect, and whomever is in the challenge beats the snot out of the necro .

[Heimdall Skullcrusher]

Chariots (aka Necron Lord on Command Barge) cannot issue or accept challenges. Mindshackle scarabs work off base contact anyways and don't care about challenges. One key is they happen pre-pile in, so make sure your wolves are out front to get in base contact first or accept the charge.

[skeletoro]

By all means have fun with this now but i imagine we will eventually see a FAQ like last time...

[Rune Priest Jbickb]

Fortunately this is one of those little rules that does not force you to model anything that will have to get taken apart after an faq

[Frater Cornelius]

Yes, you could designate a cyberwolf to be your Warlord, which would be fun as heck to do just for the reaction of your adversary.

 

As to Dreadknights, however, it's no guarantee, as excess Wounds will spill over to the unit (no more lost Wounds in Challenges in 7e), so you'll need to hide that IP at the very back and hope the DK doesn't destroy the whole unit in one go, which he can do with a Nemesis Greatsword and some lucky rolls.

 

V

I know that they spill over, but if the Nemesis challenges you either lose out on attacks or the sergeant will inevitably die first. When you accept with a Wolf, the Wolf will go first and you can allocate the remaining ones to the other Wolves. In essence you potentially lose 1 less TWC. If the IP is solo with Wolves, I can not decline, since he will designate the IP as the one who declined. Having a Wolf is your insurance.

 

As for the MSS, while it is technically true that a challenger does not need to be B2B, you also have to consider that an IP with Wolves are 5 models and in combat you have to attempt to place as many models in base contact as possible, same with the pile-in move. Given the size of the Command Barge, it is likely that the IP will be in contact and as such can be subject to MSS. I also can not decline since the IP could lose out on attacks. With a Wolf accepting, given that he is B2B with the Barge, he has to be subject to MSS (at least according the the latest FAQ, or so I am told, I have not checked myself).

 

Verdict, it is definitely convenient to have a Cyber Wolf handy for those cases ;)

 

Edit: And a Barge Lord challenge. It follows the Chariot rule which states that he can as long as be is a character (page 87 rule book).

[FenrisWolf]

Yes, you could designate a cyberwolf to be your Warlord, which would be fun as heck to do just for the reaction of your adversary.

As to Dreadknights, however, it's no guarantee, as excess Wounds will spill over to the unit (no more lost Wounds in Challenges in 7e), so you'll need to hide that IP at the very back and hope the DK doesn't destroy the whole unit in one go, which he can do with a Nemesis Greatsword and some lucky rolls.

V

I know that they spill over, but if the Nemesis challenges you either lose out on attacks or the sergeant will inevitably die first. When you accept with a Wolf, the Wolf will go first and you can allocate the remaining ones to the other Wolves. In essence you potentially lose 1 less TWC. If the IP is solo with Wolves, I can not decline, since he will designate the IP as the one who declined. Having a Wolf is your insurance.

As for the MSS, while it is technically true that a challenger does not need to be B2B, you also have to consider that an IP with Wolves are 5 models and in combat you have to attempt to place as many models in base contact as possible, same with the pile-in move. Given the size of the Command Barge, it is likely that the IP will be in contact and as such can be subject to MSS. I also can not decline since the IP could lose out on attacks. With a Wolf accepting, given that he is B2B with the Barge, he has to be subject to MSS (at least according the the latest FAQ, or so I am told, I have not checked myself).

Verdict, it is definitely convenient to have a Cyber Wolf handy for those cases

Edit: And a Barge Lord challenge. It follows the Chariot rule which states that he can as long as be is a character (page 87 rule book).

I'm losing the ability to follow you, Immersturm. Can you decode please?

[Frater Cornelius]

What exaclty seems to be the problem?

[FenrisWolf]

I know that they spill over, but if the Nemesis challenges you either lose out on attacks or the sergeant will inevitably die first. When you accept with a Wolf, the Wolf will go first and you can allocate the remaining ones to the other Wolves. In essence you potentially lose 1 less TWC. If the IP is solo with Wolves, I can not decline, since he will designate the IP as the one who declined. Having a Wolf is your insurance.

As for the MSS, while it is technically true that a challenger does not need to be B2B, you also have to consider that an IP with Wolves are 5 models and in combat you have to attempt to place as many models in base contact as possible, same with the pile-in move. Given the size of the Command Barge, it is likely that the IP will be in contact and as such can be subject to MSS. I also can not decline since the IP could lose out on attacks. With a Wolf accepting, given that he is B2B with the Barge, he has to be subject to MSS (at least according the the latest FAQ, or so I am told, I have not checked myself).

Verdict, it is definitely convenient to have a Cyber Wolf handy for those cases

Edit: And a Barge Lord challenge. It follows the Chariot rule which states that he can as long as be is a character (page 87 rule book).

I guess in the Nemesis situation, I need to reread the challenges section of the rules. If the IP is solo with the wolves (I assume you mean his Cyberpups), the IP can't decline. I don't understand this and the statement that says he will designate the IP as having declined. Why can't the CW take the challenge (which is supposedly your point) or am I missing something here?

[Frater Cornelius]

The IP can decline because he is not the only model (he has 4 CW). But you should read page 101. When I decline a challenge, the opponent can choose any of my characters that could've accepted. That character will not participate in the fight. So if Nemesis or Command Barge challenge me, I either accept with the IP (and get killed due to higher I, MSS and all that jazz) or decline, in which case the opponent will choose my IP to not fight and he gets killed anyway. But if a CW accepts, the IP is out of immediate danger and can still strike blows, thus endangering the NDK and pretty much kill the Barge.

[Heimdall Skullcrusher]

My bad. It was 6th edition where chariots couldn't be involved in challenges. Hate to spread misinformation.

[Lucien Eilam]

They're useful but hardly broken. Even assuming your opponent is ignorant of the rules of your army and you didn't tell him, which would be considered pretty bad form where I play, it's only going to be a surprise once.
 
Mindshackle Scarabs affect one randomly chosen model in base contact. The only difference challenges make is that if the randomly selected model is in a challenge, then he hits himself instead of the unit - a model in base contact but outside the challenge can still be affected. The Necron player couldn't rely on it affecting the Iron Priest in the first place.
 
You might be able to use the challenge to swap the Iron Priest out of base contact to remove him from selection, assuming the entire unit wasn't in contact anyway, but that's about it.
 
A Dreadknight will typically have 1 or 2 guns that kill Cyberwolves on a 2+, each with a good chance of hitting every model in the squad. Between even a single round of shooting and wounds spilling out of challenges, I still wouldn't put any money on the Priest getting to swing.

 

And I'm not sure how often Look Outing wounds for Cyberwolves with a 55+ point TWC model is going to be a sensible idea, but I suspect the answer is "very rarely".

[Frater Cornelius]

Of cause they are not broken. But they are useful and allow for fun tricks. I mean, I would not base a strategy around it since it would only work once.

As for the Lo,S things, well, I do want to claim sufficient experience with Wolves + TWC shenanigans to say that pulling AP2-4 wounds of a Cyber Wolf has benefits in the long-run, albeit small ones. Still, small things add up.

And sure, the NDK has dakka, but will he really waste it on Cyber Wolves? He will not be able to get through the 2+ save of an IP unless he rolls like crazy with Rending. So 4 CW will die and the IP will usually be ok. I lost 60 points and he will lose 200+ because he ignored the TWC unit coming his way.

Most of these tricks build on the common mind-set of people that killing a few Wolves is worth a lot less than killing a few TWC instead.

In the end, it is all very situational but it is still a handy trick to have up your sleeve when something like that comes up. That is why we make these threads

BTW, thanks on clearing up the MSS issue. I have been a little in the dark concerning that

I think we can agree that the biggest benefit on character CW is that you are not forced to decline challenges or accept with your IP when fighting something that could kill him with a few swings.

[Lucien Eilam]

Of cause they are not broken. But they are useful and allow for fun tricks. I mean, I would not base a strategy around it since it would only work once.

 

I think we agree then. But you did use the word "broken" in the topic title. ;)

[Frater Cornelius]

That's what you call 'comedic overexaggeration' ;)

[Coverfire]

Are Cyber-Wolves T4 or T5? We have a typo and I was wondering what the consensus was. 

[Frater Cornelius]

Their actual entries with Iron Priest and Fenrisian Wolves say T4. I guess the back is a typo.