Vampyrer0me0 Posted October 9, 2014 Share Posted October 9, 2014 I played an 1850pt game today, using the tourney list I am building for the first time. I was playing against an Eldar/ Dark Eldar combo that makes me cry for the fluff. The enemy list Autarch in Wave Serpent(with reserve tricks and something that lets him re roll ones) Archon(In a Raider with WWP) 4x 5 man dire avenger squads each with Wave Serpent 1x 7 man Fire Dragon Squad that had left its wave serpent for the Autarch to use and was riding with the Archon3x 2 Hornet squads. My List: Blood Claws 9 MG, PF, DP >Wolf Guard PA,CM >Wolf Priest RA Grey Hunters 9 PF, Rhino, Wolf Standard >Wolf Guard PM, SS >WGBL WCx2, Armour of Russ Blood Claws 15 PF >Wolf Guard PS, MB >Storm Wolf TLHB, TLLC, TLHF, CP Grey Hunters 10 MGx2 , PF Rhino >Wolf Guard PW Thunderwolf 6 SSx6, THx2, WC Tarrantula 1 TL Hyperios, Camo The mission we played was relic and that was the only reason I managed to keep the game close, by controlling the relic. That is until at long last I was cut down leaving only my storm wolf flying around surrounded by eldar tanks. The real question is how do you kill that amount of armour, and how do you survive that many shots. The TWC did a great job of soaking up the majority of shooting for 2 turns, but even they couldnt stand up to the weight of shield shots. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/297768-how-do-we-deal-with-wave-serpent-spam/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spazmonkey Posted October 9, 2014 Share Posted October 9, 2014 Get the grey hunters into drop pods with as much melta as you can pack. drop them in to take attention off the TWC and pop some Serpents. Get your TWC gets across the board while the serpents focus on the grey hunters. Change the HVY bolters to twin linked Melta so when it comes on in turn 2 (Hopefully) it can start popping serpents. Leave 5 BC in the Storm wolf for objective capture. Get the rest into a drop pod or swap them out for grey hunters. I dont know how much the Tarrantula costs, but i would get a vindicator in there. With the thunder wolves and storm wolf this will give them another big threat to think about, take some heat off other units. Give them a lot of high threat targets to worry about, hope they try to spread fire or focus on the wrong units. Be agresive and get in his face asap. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/297768-how-do-we-deal-with-wave-serpent-spam/#findComment-3828907 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarl Kjaran Coldheart Posted October 9, 2014 Share Posted October 9, 2014 Wolf Helm on a Character manning a Aegis line with quad gun. The gun can lay down a fierce amount of firepower, the Helm ignores cover saves (so no jink) WLK Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/297768-how-do-we-deal-with-wave-serpent-spam/#findComment-3828912 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spazmonkey Posted October 9, 2014 Share Posted October 9, 2014 Wolf Helm on a Character manning a Aegis line with quad gun. The gun can lay down a fierce amount of firepower, the Helm ignores cover saves (so no jink) WLK oh that is an evil idea..... Dosnt the quad gun only hit on sixes though if not a flyer? (I'm not 100% on this one) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/297768-how-do-we-deal-with-wave-serpent-spam/#findComment-3828914 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarl Kjaran Coldheart Posted October 9, 2014 Share Posted October 9, 2014 Wolf Helm on a Character manning a Aegis line with quad gun. The gun can lay down a fierce amount of firepower, the Helm ignores cover saves (so no jink) WLK oh that is an evil idea..... Dosnt the quad gun only hit on sixes though if not a flyer? (I'm not 100% on this one) That is correct, with twin-linked. Better than nothing and still very potent. WLK Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/297768-how-do-we-deal-with-wave-serpent-spam/#findComment-3828928 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spazmonkey Posted October 9, 2014 Share Posted October 9, 2014 What models can the Helm go on? what is the rule on what models can use it? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/297768-how-do-we-deal-with-wave-serpent-spam/#findComment-3828931 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vykryl Posted October 9, 2014 Share Posted October 9, 2014 Any hq can take Durfast's helm Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/297768-how-do-we-deal-with-wave-serpent-spam/#findComment-3828933 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarl Kjaran Coldheart Posted October 9, 2014 Share Posted October 9, 2014 Its a relic, and available to to any model with access to Codex Wolf relics. WLK Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/297768-how-do-we-deal-with-wave-serpent-spam/#findComment-3828934 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spazmonkey Posted October 9, 2014 Share Posted October 9, 2014 So would work with living lightning for an RP in a drop pod for example. Arjacs hammer throw. A WG pack lead with a cyclone missle launcher. Does Bjorn or ven dreads have access to relics? Any of these could make a mess of a serpent... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/297768-how-do-we-deal-with-wave-serpent-spam/#findComment-3828939 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarl Kjaran Coldheart Posted October 9, 2014 Share Posted October 9, 2014 Of the presented, only the Rune Priest has the ability to purchase the Helm. WLK Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/297768-how-do-we-deal-with-wave-serpent-spam/#findComment-3828942 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolf Guard Dan Posted October 9, 2014 Share Posted October 9, 2014 This is a tough conundrum. Wave serpents are faster, put out more dakka, and more survivable than any vehicle we can bring. Oh and they have a transport capacity of 12 and ObSec. QQ SW just have to be better with your tactics. A lot better. Eldar are more efficient at getting a good cost per unit. SW cannot beat them in list building. SW just have to be a better general. I am interested in a battle report. That is great that it was close. I think they can be beaten. SW have decent enough tools to get the job done. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/297768-how-do-we-deal-with-wave-serpent-spam/#findComment-3828975 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frater Cornelius Posted October 9, 2014 Share Posted October 9, 2014 Given that Marines generally lack a reliable way to ignore cover, it ain't easy. Sure, you could melta spam. It doesnot really help. 3+ jink and serpent shield. After that move + boost and your melta is stuck somewhere. There is 2 ways. Either wait until he unloads his shield so that you can spam the serpent to death (given that we do not have AC spam) or get on his rear armour. Drop Pods help, but if he is smart he will not expose it. Of cause, there is another way to get to the rear, and that is called melee. Small Skyclaw or Swiftclaw units are amazing tank hunter. If you want to get fancy there are WG bikes. And finally all the Cavalry and Beasts in our dex. They can keep up with serpents and take them apart. That is basically it what Marines can do. Unfortunately we do not have Tau level of shooting, who pretty much obliterate serpents. But we do not need to, because we have good melee options as SW ;) Edit: AV14 laughs at serpents. If you can deal with his WK T1 then thr Raider shouldn't have an issue. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/297768-how-do-we-deal-with-wave-serpent-spam/#findComment-3828977 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vampyrer0me0 Posted October 9, 2014 Author Share Posted October 9, 2014 Mission: Eternal War Relic Deployment: Hammer and Anvil Eldar get the first turn. Deployment: He deployed in a two pronged formation with 3 serpents and 2 hornets on the Southern Side of his deployment zone and 2 Serpents and 4 Hornets in his Northern Deployment. My deployment was limited by terrain TWC in the center 12in from the relic trying to get some LOS blocked, I put both rhinos in the southern part of my deployment. Edit: I had the option to outflank with as I rolled really well and got outflank on both rhinos and the storm wolf. His scout moves just did some minor repositioning of the hornets. Turn One He only barely moved anything. He opened fire starting with his southern group on my rhinos. The were killed by one Wave Serpent each. I deployed the squads of grey hunters behind them giving me a longer walk but effectively ending the shooting phase for his southern forces. The Northern Forces opened up on the TWC killing 2 in startling lack of saves on my part. Tarantula was also killed. On my turn I brought in my drop pod directly behind his southern forces, hoping that I would be able to drop one of his wave serpents in the initial shots. Sadly, my opponent started what would be a long as game where he didn't fail a single jink throw. My grey hunters moved, and then ran towards the Relic. The TWC ran straight up the lines in hopes of getting to the southern group next turn. Turn Two Some more minor repositioning in an attempt to maximise fire, no movement towards the relic. Two squads of dire avengers disembark to give some more fire power to the attack on my blood claw squad. The venom moves to bring its weapons to bear on my TWC. He opens fire and kills all of my blood claws except the wolf guard, and the wolf priest. His other shots kill the remainder of my TWC, barely. My Storm Wolf comes in zooming along the Northern flank splitting its fire between the Venom and one of the wave serpents, still no jink saves failed. Grey Hunters continue their advance on the relic. I split the Wolf Priest and Wolf Guard, they are within charge range of two wave serpents. Drop Pod fires on a wave serpent with no affect. The wolf guard makes his charge, but the wolf priest is cheated out of his charge my literally a mm of terrain that the opponent says I clip on the charge. The Wolf Guard explodes one wave serpent killing himself and 3 dire avengers. Turn Three The Northern Flank is now distracted with my Storm Wolf, and the Southern flank is mostly focusing on the Wolf Priest in its midst. This means that my grey hunters survive the shooting more or less unharmed. The wolf priest falls to massed shots, the Storm Wolf is unharmed. The melta squad of grey hunters get to the relic, and my blood claws disembark from the storm wolf surrounding the venom. Shooting phase is again ineffective due to jink saves. The venom is destroyed killing everyone inside since it was completely surrounded. Turn Four At last his raider comes in with the archon, it deep strikes in position to try and kill my storm wolf since it is hovering. Thankfully it failed causing only one hull point, thanks to ceramite plating and my passing a jink save. The blood claws weather all of the shooting from the Northern Force leaving them with only three models. The grey hunters with the relic are hit hard by the southern forces bringing them down. My blood claws begin moving towards the raider in hopes of making the charge, and the hunters get the relic and begin to move away with it. Storm wolf zooms and begins firing on the southern forces hoping to give the hunters enough time to get away. I fail the charge. Turn Five His fire dragons disembark and place themselves to shoot on my grey hunters. The rest of his army is moving to get shots either on the hunters or the Stormwolf. Massed fire kills the remainder of my forces leaving the relic out in the open. At this point he has 2 victory points. One for the Warlord and one for first blood. The game would have been a minor victory if it had ended, but it continued for one more turn allowing him to get the relic. Final Score: Eldar: 6 points/ 3 for relic 1 for first blood 1 for warlord 1 for linebreaker Space wolves: 1point for linebreaker Edit: So I have been thinking and I think my main mistakes were not taking the rhinos into outflank. I was worried that that would leave the TWC in a terrible spot but I could have played more conservatively and really done some damage. I stand by my target priority which was serpents first hornets second. The hornets ignored my armour, but the volume of shots from the serpents just obliterated things. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/297768-how-do-we-deal-with-wave-serpent-spam/#findComment-3829176 Share on other sites More sharing options...
DanPesci Posted October 9, 2014 Share Posted October 9, 2014 Couple ideas...(have never played against serpent spam though so soz if these dont help much) - If they allow forgeworld rules...there are various vehicle upgrades you can take (think its one upgrade allowed per detachment). One of them gives the vehicle ignores cover. Ive used it on a predator executioner (fires 3 plasma cannon shots) and its a beast against infantry and light vehicles. Whats the AV on a WS? 12? may not be best against them, but stick it on a predator with lascannons and it should mow through them. Obviously if they dont play FW rule thats out though. - Drop melta pods in front of them (back is tempting but for me, the pods are better blocking their escape in front, and melta should chew through their front armour almost as easy as rear), whilst DSing combi plas TDA behind (if there's room, may be slighlty risky). - Multiple smaller TWC units, take an iron priest and 4 wolves with him to soak wounds. - mutliple blizzdreads in pods. Think the main thing here im trying to get at is to get something in their face that they have to deal with or run towards you to get away from, whilst having fast CC units to then charge them from your own deployment come turn 2-3 EDIT - another stormwolf? or a landraider? They seem to have problems dealing with your SW, and a land raider theyd have trouble scratching. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/297768-how-do-we-deal-with-wave-serpent-spam/#findComment-3829208 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rune Priest Jbickb Posted October 9, 2014 Share Posted October 9, 2014 Of the presented, only the Rune Priest has the ability to purchase the Helm. WLK Where do you see this? Any unit that can take a relic ca take that helm. So that means WGBL, wolf lord, rune priest, and wolf priest all have the option. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/297768-how-do-we-deal-with-wave-serpent-spam/#findComment-3829247 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sohail187 Posted October 9, 2014 Share Posted October 9, 2014 I have previously played a similar list. 4 serphants 4 hornets fireprism. I allied in some space marines with my 1850 list and managed to roll ignore cover for my centurions. Alpha striking the list is a big thing. If this is just a game where you are playing a mate i would drop the rhino's and be more in his face and take pods. I was fairly lucky to get ignore cover centurions with grav weapons managed to kill 2 serphants with those alone turn 1 and a melta pod killed the prism! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/297768-how-do-we-deal-with-wave-serpent-spam/#findComment-3829277 Share on other sites More sharing options...
NightHowler Posted October 9, 2014 Share Posted October 9, 2014 Melta has the potential to be wasted against serpent spam, especially if you pod in T1 before they've had a chance to shoot their shields. Their shields will turn your pens to glances, and melt only gets one shot each and their jink save will negate half of those: [10 combi-melta > 6.66 hits > 3.33 glance/pens > jink should reduce to 1.6 glance/pen > 1.6 HP removed by a 10 man wolfguard combi-melta drop squad] Combi-plasma gets twice as many shots - I know it's only at S7, but still 1/3 of those hits will strip a hull point: [10 combi-plasma > 13.33 hits > 4.44 glance/pens > jink should reduce to 2.22 glance/pen > 2.22 HP removed by a 10 man wolfguard combi-plasma drop squad] With drop pod assault most of your pods will come in turn 1. Assuming a 50/50 chance you go first, meltas are not as good against serpent spam as plasma. Even if you go second, a wise eldar general will see your pods full of melta and wait till after they drop to shoot you to death. Again, meltas are not as good as plasma against serpent spam. Just my 2 cents worth. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/297768-how-do-we-deal-with-wave-serpent-spam/#findComment-3829281 Share on other sites More sharing options...
NightHowler Posted October 9, 2014 Share Posted October 9, 2014 And for the record, I'll be facing a serpent spam list this friday with a list I've put together to take to the LVO in February. If I find the time I may post a battle report here. Also, I'm new. Hi. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/297768-how-do-we-deal-with-wave-serpent-spam/#findComment-3829282 Share on other sites More sharing options...
FenrisWolf Posted October 9, 2014 Share Posted October 9, 2014 Welcome, NightHowler! Hope you find the time to post a BatRep. We all want to know how you fare! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/297768-how-do-we-deal-with-wave-serpent-spam/#findComment-3829301 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Castellan Blackmane Posted October 9, 2014 Share Posted October 9, 2014 Use Krak grenade spam? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/297768-how-do-we-deal-with-wave-serpent-spam/#findComment-3829317 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarl Kjaran Coldheart Posted October 9, 2014 Share Posted October 9, 2014 Of the presented, only the Rune Priest has the ability to purchase the Helm. WLK Where do you see this? Any unit that can take a relic ca take that helm. So that means WGBL, wolf lord, rune priest, and wolf priest all have the option. in the options that was given in the post i was replying to, only a rune priest was mentioned. so in the above post, only the Rune Priest was eligible to buy the Helm I was answering the question without giving away rules that are easily found in the codex. WLK Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/297768-how-do-we-deal-with-wave-serpent-spam/#findComment-3829385 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Drunk Guardian Posted October 9, 2014 Share Posted October 9, 2014 Take a maxed Void Shield Generator and stick as many Vindicare Assassins in it as your list can afford. Fight cheese with cheese. It also synergizes with fast assault elements such as Thunderwolves since you will force him to either close with you or sit back and just get obliterated at range. Vindicare Assassins, point for point, are just far superior to equivalently costed Long Fangs vs Serpent spam. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/297768-how-do-we-deal-with-wave-serpent-spam/#findComment-3829393 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rune Priest Jbickb Posted October 9, 2014 Share Posted October 9, 2014 Of the presented, only the Rune Priest has the ability to purchase the Helm. WLK Where do you see this? Any unit that can take a relic ca take that helm. So that means WGBL, wolf lord, rune priest, and wolf priest all have the option. in the options that was given in the post i was replying to, only a rune priest was mentioned. so in the above post, only the Rune Priest was eligible to buy the Helm I was answering the question without giving away rules that are easily found in the codex. WLK My bad I misunderstood your meaning. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/297768-how-do-we-deal-with-wave-serpent-spam/#findComment-3829449 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spazmonkey Posted October 9, 2014 Share Posted October 9, 2014 Melta has the potential to be wasted against serpent spam, especially if you pod in T1 before they've had a chance to shoot their shields. Their shields will turn your pens to glances, and melt only gets one shot each and their jink save will negate half of those: [10 combi-melta > 6.66 hits > 3.33 glance/pens > jink should reduce to 1.6 glance/pen > 1.6 HP removed by a 10 man wolfguard combi-melta drop squad] Combi-plasma gets twice as many shots - I know it's only at S7, but still 1/3 of those hits will strip a hull point: [10 combi-plasma > 13.33 hits > 4.44 glance/pens > jink should reduce to 2.22 glance/pen > 2.22 HP removed by a 10 man wolfguard combi-plasma drop squad] With drop pod assault most of your pods will come in turn 1. Assuming a 50/50 chance you go first, meltas are not as good against serpent spam as plasma. Even if you go second, a wise eldar general will see your pods full of melta and wait till after they drop to shoot you to death. Again, meltas are not as good as plasma against serpent spam. Just my 2 cents worth. So let me see if im following you..... Plasma... right.... is better right.... than Melta... I think i'm reading between the lines here... =0P If you took 2 pods of 6 WG with combi plasma, x1 in tda with cyclone missle launcher and a rune priest with living lightning. Lots of points, but they could bring a lot of death.... and can also you can swap the power sword of the termi for a free SS to get a 3+ inv Hope to Pop 2 serpents and to get into CC your next turn. That's a big distraction for the serpents to take out and give you at least an extra turn to get your other units down the board... Though would they make their points back? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/297768-how-do-we-deal-with-wave-serpent-spam/#findComment-3829678 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolf Guard Dan Posted October 9, 2014 Share Posted October 9, 2014 Serpent shield is a helluva drug. I think plasma guns also come out stronger versus Wraith Knights too. If you drop in Ulrik too it makes it even better. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/297768-how-do-we-deal-with-wave-serpent-spam/#findComment-3829714 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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