Heavy Panzers - The Glory of Mech Warfare

[Frater Cornelius]

Alright you thread-heads! I am sure you have made plenty of experience with our mech components. I wish to know how the following units performed for you and whether you would take them again:

 

1) Vindicators

2) Rhinos (as a GH delivery system)

3) Predators

4) Ranged Dreadnoughts

 

Although I am not particularly interested in a Land Raider given it's cost, I wouldn't mind heaving a bit about it as well.

 

Have a good one ;)

[Rune Priest Jbickb]

I have good luck with vindicators most of the time. Especially after I figured out that I needed to play them aggressively to get the most out of them due to their short range. They are a fun distraction though.

 

I am not a rhino fan personally as I find them to be a bit fragile, but I have no experience with them in 7th.

 

I like predators they are fun and the lascannon build can get some work done, I find mine to be ignored early game for some reason. Which is often to my opponents detriment.

 

I haven't run my 2x autocannon dread in 7th, but in 6th it it did a good job of shredding light armor. The lack of ap might hurt it in 7th though.

 

I am a huge advocate of land raiders. They are tough and can take some hits and still deliver a payload off assault into the enemy's face. A crusader full oof blood claws has done pretty well for me. I swapped it in my lists from a stormwolf and I think it was a trade up For carrying the claws as delivery doesn't sacrifice durability.

 

Hope this helps

[codyrstuart]

I havent used vindicators since the new codex (only have 2 games under my belt), but I love them. Especially with dawn of war deployments. Put them on the table and watch my opponent :cuss bricks, especially if I can get the ignore cover power on them.They draw fire like none other, but that paired with how much they kill makes their points back in my opinion.

[Frater Cornelius]

Divination Ignore Cover only works for the psyker and his unit. I like the Vindicators a lot. They have a big psychological impact and are not easy to kill with AV13. S10 is always welcome. I might give them a try since I have 2 at home which I have not used much yet.

 

A single LRC will get shot to hell. Granted, S7 spam, which is absolutely freaking everywhere, can not hurt it, but there are plenty things that can. I do not see a single Land Raider working in a competitive environment unless there is something I am missing something. Losing one T1 or T2 will hurt too much. It's guns aren't anything to write home about either. Massed Bolters are covered by GH, albeit not twin-linked but much cheaper. Multimelta can be covered by drop pod melta units. Assault Cannon may be nice, but I do not see it excelling in any area. I prefer good performance of a gun, even if it covers only 1 enemy type. Middle of the road is not good enough.

[Rune Priest Jbickb]

A single lr may get shot to hell (though in my experience this takes alot of dedicated effort) but mine usually makes it far enough for the unit to charge and what is shooting the land raider is not shooting the other stuff you have on the table. It works in my meta anyway. But I do understand your reluctance especially at a 250 price tag.

[Frater Cornelius]

Maybe I am seeing too many Wraithknights and Drop Pod Centurions. Or maybe because I am literally happy that the opponent plays a Land Raider, since I can easily ignore it's shooting and blow it up at my leisure. There is little effort involved.

 

Sure, I pay 190-215 points for drop pod GH and 205-215 for a TWC unit. But you do not see them disappear after a melta looks at you funny. I value the Vindicator more because at least it costs 130 points, does not get immobilized from a tree stump, has a very respectable weapon and will draw disproportionate amount of fire for it's point level.

 

I mean, sure, I could even get 2 LRC into my list filled with TDA or whatever. It would look like this

WGBL on TWM, 2x IP with 4 CW, 2x 4TWC, 2 LRC as dedicated for 2 GH or BC units. But I do not think that it will scare anyone and a LR costs a small fortune to buy.

I think I prefer the Drop Pod as a delivery method. You get the same guns but in turn 1, where ever you need them, for a cheap price and it is not subject to Wraithknights, Dreadknights, Command Barges with Scythes, Deathrays, TWC/IP, Centurions, Grav Bikes, Armourbane (mainly daemons), Meltas, Fusion Blasters and furious Tree Stumps (the worst of them all).

[Rune Priest Jbickb]

All very fair points.

 

I definitely recommend the vindicator though between the distraction and the killy it's just fun plus you can buy 2 for the price of a land raider.

[Vash113]

Personally I'm a huge fan of the Land Raider, I always run at least one Crusader and often field two. I'll get into that in a little bit, but first, a breakdown on running mech.

 

Ultimately the goal of running a mechanized list is target saturation. You want to put enough armor on the table to spread your opponent's anti-armor weaponry thin. Most opponents run enough weapons to easily pop a single Land Raider and a few transports, however if you put down a Land Raider, a Vindicator, a couple of Predators, a Dreadnought, and two-three Razorbacks and suddenly your opponent has to really wrack their brains to decide which vehicle to target first, whether to focus fire on one vehicle and increase the chances of destroying it or risk spreading out their fire and likely only scratch or lightly damage multiple vehicles. Essentially if you want to go with armor, take a lot of it.

 

Now as to specific units:

 

Vindicator

-This is an excellent vehicle, great at blowing holes in the enemy force, smashing open vehicles and buildings and giving your opponent a serious headache. The Vindicator, because of its short range, is best played aggressively. Right alongside a Dreadnought and/or Land Raider advance, providing supporting fire and a very big distraction. The sheer power of the Vindicator's gun often draws a lot of attention from enemy fire, even though with cover saves its chances of actually doing vast amounts of damage to your opponent's army is relatively small. In this way the Vindicator can be a great mobile distraction and line-breaker, forcing an opponent to hug cover, spread out their infantry, and put vehicles hull-down behind obstacles. One Vindicator is often enough in a mech list, 2-3 can be great but not to the detriment of other armored assets, Vindicator's are best used in conjunction with other armor such as Land Raiders and Razorbacks carrying infantry support, and Dreadnoughts able to move and fire to full effect. While the demolisher cannon is powerful, it is not quite versatile enough to make the Vindicator a primary armored unit that can be taken in large numbers without supporting assets.

 

Predator

-Honestly I much prefer the Annihilator pattern, despite the greater cost. Running three lascannons makes the Predator Annihilator an excellent anti-vehicle sniper. The Predator however is best kept back from the enemy, a rear-lines support fire unit hidden behind or around cover that minimizes the number of enemies that can see and hurt it while still keeping a clear line-of-sight to the juiciest of the enemy's armor targets. The Predator Destructor is a cheaper option, with decent heavy firepower and solid armor, however anti-infantry and light-armor weaponry like the Destructor packs are relatively common amongst the Space Wolves infantry and other units, dedicated armor support mounting those weapons is often not really needed. However if you already have a Vindicator, Predator Annihilator and a Land Raider (of any type) then a Destructor can be a great addition. The other units can handle heavy armor and the Destructor can serve as a longer range anti-infantry and light-armor unit in support of your infantry, particularly against small but fast units such as Tau light skimmers, Eldar, and light ork Vehicles.

 

Rhinos

-The Rhino is the cheapest and most practical option for transporting infantry in an armored list, and certainly a few are no bad thing. However apart from convenient transportation the Rhino doesn't bring much to a mech list. Armed with a storm bolter and hunter-killer missile at best the Rhino's chances of doing any notable damage to the enemy is small and after it has dropped off it's cargo it is essentially just a semi-mobile bunker. It can be used to block enemy movement, harass troops with tank-shocks, block line of sight, and otherwise just get in the way, however the enemy will not likely focus any more anti-vehicle fire on Rhinos after they have dropped off their cargo, meaning they are no longer serving as target saturation or a distraction for the rest of your armor. In a hybrid or balanced list Rhinos are fine, but in a dedicated mech list I would strongly recommend Razorbacks.

 

Razorbacks

-The biggest downside of Razorbacks is the smaller transport capacity over the Rhino. However, mounting a variety of heavy-weapons including twin-linked assault cannons, twin-linked lascannons, twin linked heavy bolters and lascannon and plasma gun the Razorback can be fitted to fill in holes in your armored firepower. If you are light on anti-infantry and light vehicle weaponry than assault cannons and heavy bolters can be cost-effective weapons, if you want more anti-tank firepower than lascannons or the las/plas option are great. Relatively cheap Razorbacks can transport moderate sized squads of Grey Hunters towards the enemy, drop them off and still remain potent assets in your arsenal of armor, drawing enemy fire, spreading out your own weaponry and shooting options, and remaining tactically effective after dropping off their infantry. In a mechanized list 2-3 Razorbacks can be a nice boost to your armored strength, provide some solid firepower, and still transport a modest sized force of infantry to the enemy lines. Alternately mixing a few Razorbacks in with one or more Rhinos with larger squads can also be effective, still giving your army some extra armored firepower while still delivering a relatively strong infantry force towards the enemy lines, securing objectives and so on and so forth. In that case I would still suggest an equal or greater number of Razorbacks to Rhinos. 

 

Dreadnoughts

-Ranged Dreadnoughts in the Space Wolves arsenal are an option, however given how strong our melee focused Dreadnoughts are they can be tough choices to take compared to a Ven Dread with Great Axe and Blizzard Shield. Honestly perhaps the best option would be to go with a balanced Dreadnought, a Ven Dread with Helfrost Cannon, Plasma Cannon or twin-linked Lascannons combined with a Wolf Claw or DCCW. Going fully mech I'd generally recommend advancing Dreadnoughts on foot along with the armor, but they can make great distraction and forward assault units with Drop Pods delivering them into the heart of the enemy force. In that case a Venerable Dreadnought with Axe and Shield dropped into the enemy lines on turn one can make an amazing distraction. Relatively tough with the shield and venerable rules the Dreadnought can disrupt your opponent's battle-plan and provide a huge distraction for enemy heavy weapons and assault units while the rest of your armor closes into range, drops off infantry, or moves into more advantageous firing positions.

 

Land Raiders

-In a mech army a Land Raider is something I would strongly recommend. AV 14 makes for a potent sight on the battlefield, especially when combined with other armored assets. Suddenly an opponent is not focusing all their lascannons and missiles on your lighter armor and is instead more likely to throw anything with a strength of at least 8 against the Land Raider. This draws heavy fire from your lighter armored Predators, Vindicators, Rhinos and so forth while also forcing your opponent to spread out their anti-armor fire somewhat. Land Raiders also provide potent assault transport capability, able to deliver large squads of Grey Hunters, Wolf Guard or Blood Claws into the enemy force. I particularly like full packs of Blood Claws as they really make use of the capacity of the Crusader and fifteen man squads piling into the enemy can be very effective indeed. The Redeemer, with it's flame cannons, can force a dug-in enemy from cover, while the Crusader provides some withering small-arms fire and the standard pattern provides a solid all-round versatile vehicle.

 

Land Speeders

-Though relatively paper-thin in the armor department don't forget Land Speeders in a mech army. With a variety of weaponry Land Speeders can make for great flanking units, with the speed and weaponry to prove a real threat to an opponent's rear lines. While the enemy focuses heavy weaponry on your tanks Land Speeders can zip around the flanks with Multi-Meltas and Assault Cannons and strike enemy armor in the weaker side and rear armor or harass heavy-weapons units with Heavy Bolters and Heavy Flamers.

 

Bikes and Attack Bikes

-Don't forget bikes either. Swiftclaws with a multi-melta attack bike can make for a decent flanking unit too. However the lower ballistic skill makes this option less effective than for vanilla marines. However Wolf Guard bikers are an effective option. Rather than use vehicles to transport Wolf Guard or commanders you can mount them on bikes. This makes them tougher than on foot and they can make for a solid assault element to back up your armored advance and infantry. Wolf Guard Bikers can also take special weapons, plasma pistols and combi-weapons, allowing them to fill a variety of roles including anti-infantry with combi-flamers, anti-heavy infantry with combi-plasmas and plasma pistols, and anti-heavy armor with combi-meltaguns.

 

Stormfang and Stormwolf Gunships

-Both of these aircraft can transport infantry and both mount some decent firepower and aircraft should not be ignored in a mech list. Generally it is considered that the Stormwolf is a better option than the Stormfang. Able to transport a full squad of Blood Claws it is a solid assault transport. The Stormwolf can also mount twin-linked lascannons and twin-linked multi-meltas in addition to its twin-linked Helfrost cannons. This makes the Stormwolf an effective anti-armor and anti-heavy infantry support unit in addition to transporting large squads of infantry into combat. 

 

So those are your options for mech, I'd suggest a balanced mix of those options.

[Frater Cornelius]

Thanks for that detailed overview.

 

I consider to add a mech element to my army. I will scale back on TWC and IP (I guess 2 units of each) and a WGBL to get around 900-1000 points, maybe a bit less.

I wanted to try drop pods, but going second, getting initiative stolen, playing against null deployment and mass intercept is asking for trouble.

Mech at least has the advantage of being capable of keeping up with Cav, adding first turn pressure and will draw S7 spam away from the Cav (or the Cav pulls it away from the mech element). The IP can also repair tanks on the fly.

 

Vindicator seems to fit the bill fairly well given their aggressive nature and pressure. But that is as far as I got with my thoughts.

 

Edit: what are your thoughts specifically on melee dreads. I find them way too slow, too fragile or both to be considered viable against Xenos. Maybe someone can give me a contrary opinion.

[Vash113]

I'm glad you found my previous post helpful. 

 

Edit: what are your thoughts specifically on melee dreads. I find them way too slow, too fragile or both to be considered viable against Xenos. Maybe someone can give me a contrary opinion.

 

As with anything it depends on how you support them. A single melee dread advancing alongside infantry will likely get pasted within moments. However alongside a larger mech army the wealth of targets will make an opponent thing twice about throwing fire at melee dreads. Sure, they may overall be a little slower than tanks and if pure melee they lack ranged firepower, but that just makes an opponent choose what to shoot at. Heavy weapon armed tanks are an immediate threat, that heavy-weapons might neutralize now, however if left unscathed melee dreads can do a lot of damage later. An opponent has to choose whether to focus fire on the Dreadnoughts to potentially limit the damage they could do later, or focus on the vehicles that are doing damage now.

 

You can also have Dreadnoughts advance behind armor to provide them cover until they close with the enemy, or deploy them via Drop Pods. By using empty Drop Pods to deploy turn 1 you can delay one or two Dreadnoughts in Drop Pods from arriving until turn 2 or later, giving your armor and infantry time to engage the enemy before the Dreadnoughts arrive in support.

 

Also in terms of durability don't forget that the Venerable Dreadnought with Fenrisian Great Axe and Blizzard Shield has a 3+ invulnerable save on its front armor, an awesome advantage and serious improvement to its survivability, especially in close combat. We also have Murderfang as a relatively cost-effective option and he comes with It Will Not Die. As long as an opponent doesn't trash him in a single turn he can slowly regain lost Hit Points.

[Frater Cornelius]

A 3++ doesn't mean jack when grav bikes, serpents, necron barges or whatever can move behind said dread and fry him in one shooting phase.

 

What I am more interested is whether a mech element alongside TWC/IP is worth considering.

[Rune Priest Jbickb]

I wouad say yes because target saturation is just as important in a thunder Wolf list. Basically the thunder wolves take the place of the light armor like rhinos/razorbacKs in a all mech list as they seem, at least to me, to draw a similar type of fire power.

 

Plus there is some symmetry with the iron priest. When he is not wrecking face he can fix up vehicles

[Vash113]

A 3++ doesn't mean jack when grav bikes, serpents, necron barges or whatever can move behind said dread and fry him in one shooting phase.

 

What I am more interested is whether a mech element alongside TWC/IP is worth considering.

 

Yes but ultimately you should have enough other units around to limit an opponent's ability to easily get around behind the Dreadnought, that's part of using target saturation.

 

As for a mech element alongside TWC... well yea, why wouldn't it be worth considering? As long as you have enough armor to spread out your opponent's anti-armor firepower. Just like bikes TWC can make a strong support and assault element advancing alongside armor. Particularly since you can advance TWC with Storm Shields in front of your armor to provide the vehicles a cover save.

[codyrstuart]

@ Immersturm- it appears I owe a couple people apologies. Good eye. I recognize my failing and will work to correct it lol.

[Frater Cornelius]

Now the question would be, what kind of armour. Both TWC and Tanks aren't exactly cheap.

I agree that TWC are basically there to replace bikes/light armour since they all draw massed s6/7 fire.

What of the heavy component then?

[Rune Priest Jbickb]

For the price I would say 2 vindicators and a predator anihilator. They are all decent units and 2 vindicators will freak out most opponents enough to help you keep the predator around for armor hunting. This is just speculation though as I have never run that set of tanks before, but it is only like 400 ish points.

[Frater Cornelius]

With that TWC core I would have around 800-900 points on tanks. Less if I decide to take a 2nd HQ.

 

I agree on Vindicators. I love the fact that if you hit anything but your main target, it can't jink.

Not sold on the Annihilator though. It can't kill a Serpent. It has only decent chances against an Annihilator Barge. Anything else is not an issue.

[Leif Bearclaw]

If killing Serpents is the goal (and criticising the Annihilator for not being able to put 6+HP damage on AV12 seems a bit harsh, as there's precious little in the game that does that alone) and FW is an option, consider Sicarans. Six twin linked (rending, which doesn't really matter here) S7 shots that ignore jink saves, plus whatever you choose to put on the sponsons, on a well armoured, fast platform. They're not too expensive points-wise either.

[Frater Cornelius]

FW is unfortunately not an option, money-wise and rule-wise. And unfortunately the game pretty much revolves around who can blow that Serpent up the fastest. Why would I need a Predator to open up some Chimera or Rhino?

 

I hear a lot of good feedback about the Murderfang pod, even if he is the only dread. Any truth to it?

[Rune Priest Jbickb]

Murderfang has a 50/50 rate with me. Though one of the times I ran him his demise was my bad. I mixed up a wave serpent with some other thing that didn't have transport and the dudes hopped out and nuked my rear armor. But he is super blender killy when not shot to hell the turn he arrives. And I suppose if they dedicate a unit Or 2 to killing him it is pressure off your other stuff.

[Vash113]

Armor wise there is not much that is going to wreck a Wave Serpent easily on its own, at least not against the front and side armor. Honestly if you want a balanced mix of medium armor I'd suggest a Vindicator, a Predator Annihilator, and a Predator Destructor. Gives you a variety of options and firepower for a relatively low points cost.

 

That said a Stormwolf can put out a decent amount of firepower and provide anti-air defense and I would also suggest considering a squadron of Land Speeders armed with dual multi-meltas. Under the cover of more nasty units, like tanks and Thunderwolves, Land Speeders can zip around flanks and get behind that nasty armor, remember the Serpent Shield does not protect against hits to the rear armor.

[Frater Cornelius]

The real question is whether that mech support is superior to either of those lists: http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/296901-brainstorming-assault-based-sw-or-the-meta-killer/?p=3830068

[Rune Priest Jbickb]

Honestly think with the pod list you might be able to get the best of both worlds. I don't think the void claws are particularly necessary there, and you could use the points and perhaps some other scrounged points to add a touch of armor.

 

Another piece of armor that may be worth considering is an imperial knight. I know you discounted them previously, but they are pretty survivable and they hit vehicles like a ton of bricks. Plus I don't think the Serpent shield can block the 2-5 result on the D table or the 6 for that matter, though that's harder to rely on.

[Jochteas]

I think the whole reason Knights where discounted was because they aren't widely accepted at the Tournament level.

[Rune Priest Jbickb]

Ah, I missed that, though I'm not sure why not, but if that's the case then bummer because it seems like a legitimate option to solve the issues presented.