Reclusiarch Darius Posted October 14, 2014 Share Posted October 14, 2014 Weaker than 4 out of the 16 or so armies. Certainly not bottom. We're weaker than Eldar, Tau, Necrons, Knight-Titans, Marines, Space Wolves, Astra Militarum, Tyranids (their power build I hasten to add, if they stray outside of it they're garbage tier), Chaos Space Marines (again power build only), and we're far less powerful than Daemons but our innate bonuses and Force let us tackle them well in the matchup (in a more general sense Daemons are better than us against both mid and top-tier lists). The rest of the armies and data-slates don't count, as they never place in tourneys and stomping them is easily done even by bad lists from the higher tier armies. 9-10 being better than us (the 10th having the caveat of being weak to us specifically, but otherwise strong) is a pretty huge gap. Before we were at least mid-tier, able to stomp other bad mid-tier lists and do reasonable work against power lists. Now we have to spam Dreadknights and basically ignore Flyers, FMC's and any kind of high AV, because we simply don't have the tools to deal with them at range. Let's see how bad Necrons get gimped. They are a popular army and it will give us an indication of what to expect from Future Eldar and Tau releases. Necrons won't get hit too hard, they sell too well. Same for Tau and Eldar. Space Wolves barely had much change and largely just got their rules brought into line with 7th edition ideas. DE got nerfed into oblivion, mainly because so few people play them (they don't even feature as Allies in most Eldar lists anymore). Getting back on topic, what if our Dreadnoughts had the Mortis rule (or whatever it is) where they can remain stationary and use the Skyfire rule? Nah that's a Contemptor Mortis ability, regular Mortis Dreads don't have it. We're extremely unlikely to get Contemptors, they're supposed to be extinct in the 40k timeline. \ In the original leaked playtest dex, Interceptors were just Troop Strikes that bought Personal Teleporters for 6 points each. I think the only reason they split them out was to give us a second Fast attack slot option... That and no one would take normal Strikes ever. Its sad really, Jump Infantry Troops are so rare, and in 7th with mobility being so clutch we would've really benefited from it. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/297814-gk-players-needed-to-fix-the-gk-dex/page/2/#findComment-3833431 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ishagu Posted October 14, 2014 Share Posted October 14, 2014 I take 10 Strikes in a Rhino, a single hammer and Incinerator. That Rhino stays put until turn 3, then they move out to claim objectives or mop up weakened units. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/297814-gk-players-needed-to-fix-the-gk-dex/page/2/#findComment-3833496 Share on other sites More sharing options...
raverrn Posted October 14, 2014 Share Posted October 14, 2014 I take 10 Strikes in a Rhino, a single hammer and Incinerator. That Rhino stays put until turn 3, then they move out to claim objectives or mop up weakened units. This is just such a PAINFUL use of ~250 points Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/297814-gk-players-needed-to-fix-the-gk-dex/page/2/#findComment-3833686 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reclusiarch Darius Posted October 15, 2014 Share Posted October 15, 2014 I take 10 Strikes in a Rhino, a single hammer and Incinerator. That Rhino stays put until turn 3, then they move out to claim objectives or mop up weakened units. Seriously? You waste 250pts to do precisely nothing for 3 turns, then maybe move off onto objectives or y'know, actually kill something? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/297814-gk-players-needed-to-fix-the-gk-dex/page/2/#findComment-3833946 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Coolpants Posted October 15, 2014 Share Posted October 15, 2014 Maaaaan, as a Knight player I'm obviously always vastly outnumbered, I've literally lost games because a reserve or 2 came in late, and you have the luxury/ability to keep a whole squad hidden for 3 turns on purpose!? To then take 2 turns to get half way up the board? Your opponent must be a real Weiner-schnitzel lol. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/297814-gk-players-needed-to-fix-the-gk-dex/page/2/#findComment-3834036 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ishagu Posted October 15, 2014 Share Posted October 15, 2014 Lol there are a lot of benefits to keeping a squad back. By turn 3 in most games the ability to deal with a full squad of Marines in a transport is greatly diminished. These guys are typically alive end of game. Able to remove enemy units from objectives and secure them. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/297814-gk-players-needed-to-fix-the-gk-dex/page/2/#findComment-3834193 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ishagu Posted October 15, 2014 Share Posted October 15, 2014 If you charge up the board with 10 PA marines they will be dead after a turn or two. Either way you won't be getting a full game out of them. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/297814-gk-players-needed-to-fix-the-gk-dex/page/2/#findComment-3834195 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reclusiarch Darius Posted October 15, 2014 Share Posted October 15, 2014 Lol there are a lot of benefits to keeping a squad back. Yeah, but only if they can shoot as well. 24" range at best isn't helpful in that regard. By turn 3 in most games the ability to deal with a full squad of Marines in a transport is greatly diminished. What's stopping them dealing with them Turn 1? It's only a Rhino after all These guys are typically alive end of game. Able to remove enemy units from objectives and secure them. Who are your regular opponents? Why do they never target your infantry or easy First Blood Rhino? If you charge up the board with 10 PA marines they will be dead after a turn or two. Either way you won't be getting a full game out of them. No one is advocating that either. Strikes are best either Deepstriking into enemy lines or riding in a Raven. You'll definitely be getting better value out that strategy than hoping your opponent will ignore a single AV11 tank all game. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/297814-gk-players-needed-to-fix-the-gk-dex/page/2/#findComment-3834215 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ishagu Posted October 16, 2014 Share Posted October 16, 2014 So many question my tactical acumen... I've been playing 40k for 15 years, and I win almost all my games! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/297814-gk-players-needed-to-fix-the-gk-dex/page/2/#findComment-3834890 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Coolpants Posted October 16, 2014 Share Posted October 16, 2014 So many question my tactical acumen... I've been playing 40k for 15 years, and I win almost all my games! well then you sir, are either a tactical genius, extremely lucky, or your opponent sucks! Maybe a combination of all? But whatever the answer, if it works for you; then carry on! haha :P Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/297814-gk-players-needed-to-fix-the-gk-dex/page/2/#findComment-3834919 Share on other sites More sharing options...
THE PORTCULLIS Posted October 16, 2014 Share Posted October 16, 2014 So many question my tactical acumen... I've been playing 40k for 15 years, and I win almost all my games! You play the games you want mate. Do what works for you and dont let anyone get you down. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/297814-gk-players-needed-to-fix-the-gk-dex/page/2/#findComment-3835048 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted October 16, 2014 Share Posted October 16, 2014 a tactical genius CREEEEDDDD!!! :) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/297814-gk-players-needed-to-fix-the-gk-dex/page/2/#findComment-3835056 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ishagu Posted October 16, 2014 Share Posted October 16, 2014 Lol I don't think I'm a tactical genius. Sadly I'm a slave to fluff and lore, so despite making strong lists they have to be feasible within the universe of 40k. It's why I don't attend tournaments, I don't want to come across some heretical alliance! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/297814-gk-players-needed-to-fix-the-gk-dex/page/2/#findComment-3835071 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rurik the blessed Posted October 16, 2014 Share Posted October 16, 2014 I think we should back to the topic right now... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/297814-gk-players-needed-to-fix-the-gk-dex/page/2/#findComment-3835267 Share on other sites More sharing options...
embalancer Posted October 16, 2014 Share Posted October 16, 2014 I think we should back to the topic right now... what was the topic again? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/297814-gk-players-needed-to-fix-the-gk-dex/page/2/#findComment-3835494 Share on other sites More sharing options...
shandwen Posted October 16, 2014 Share Posted October 16, 2014 It seems that most Grey Knight players desire their tier-one codex again. Just like every other army. The f'd act that the new book is only GK should be a highpoint, as it gives the chance to actually expand the GKs instead of throwing random junk in and calling it an army. I like the idea of psybolt activation, but most of these other ideas are attempt to make GK broken again. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/297814-gk-players-needed-to-fix-the-gk-dex/page/2/#findComment-3835512 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted October 16, 2014 Share Posted October 16, 2014 as it gives the chance to actually expand the GKs instead of throwing random junk in and calling it an army. Except not only did GW *not* expand the Marine side of the Grey Knights, they actually reduced it. We're *nearly* back to the same number of unit choices we had as Daemonhunters... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/297814-gk-players-needed-to-fix-the-gk-dex/page/2/#findComment-3835529 Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrSocks Posted October 16, 2014 Share Posted October 16, 2014 Ok so we all agree that 7th Ed Grey Knights lost a lot of things that made them special so I was thinking why do we create a B&C Supliment that is balanced and playable for the Grey Knights what we want is added units with balanced points added war gear with balanced points new HQ's New Relics and new useful wor lord traits I would say lets leave the Lord of War options out fr now we can come back to them later so this Idea is a wishlist for good stuff but needs to be balanced out so people wont mind us using this supliment What do you guys say? (When I say you I don't literally mean you, but it seems easier than saying "One") My first instinct is to say that you need to be very careful, this just seems like a "oh I'm losing so I'm going to change the rules" idea. Just because you're not one of the top codices doesn't mean you have to change it, maybe if you adapted to the new codex and attempted new play styles you might find it works for you, however the majority of these posts are comparing the codex to power builds, now since this is a fandex you wouldn't be able to play in tournaments and so it's almost irrelevant comparing it to these builds. When you compare it to other codices it's playable with the majority and moreover Grey Knights (A super elite specific as hell force designed for a specialist role) aren't going to be as flexible as say Space Marines (a force designed SPECIFICALLY for flexibility) or Imperial Guard (AM - a force that's so huge it needs to have options to do everything). It's worth adding little special roles and such for a bit of fun, or maybe adjusting points a little bit between friends, (alternatively, they could just let you use another 100 points in your list if they know what you're fielding, that's basically the same thing) but a full rewriting of a codex because it's not as good as it used to be.....not so sure. Lol there are a lot of benefits to keeping a squad back. Yeah, but only if they can shoot as well. 24" range at best isn't helpful in that regard. By turn 3 in most games the ability to deal with a full squad of Marines in a transport is greatly diminished. What's stopping them dealing with them Turn 1? It's only a Rhino after all These guys are typically alive end of game. Able to remove enemy units from objectives and secure them. Who are your regular opponents? Why do they never target your infantry or easy First Blood Rhino? If you charge up the board with 10 PA marines they will be dead after a turn or two. Either way you won't be getting a full game out of them. No one is advocating that either. Strikes are best either Deepstriking into enemy lines or riding in a Raven. You'll definitely be getting better value out that strategy than hoping your opponent will ignore a single AV11 tank all game. I don't know why you're debating someone else's tactics on here, people play as they want to play and whatever works for them. Also it's relatively easy to hide a rhino or distract from it, after all a couple of sisters in a rhino isn't exactly a threat compared to a few deep striking dreadnoughts and a Landraider bearing down on you.....just an example, but you see my point, we have no idea what's in his list nor what his opponents are using so why necessitate the "heated debate" that it became. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/297814-gk-players-needed-to-fix-the-gk-dex/page/2/#findComment-3835581 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted October 16, 2014 Share Posted October 16, 2014 and moreover Grey Knights (A super elite specific as hell force designed for a specialist role) aren't going to be as flexible as say Space Marines (a force designed SPECIFICALLY for flexibility) or Imperial Guard (AM - a force that's so huge it needs to have options to do everything). Well if we're using fluff to reason why we're not as flexible (ignoring the fact we have our own section of the Ad Mec, our own forge world, and carte blanc to produce any and all equipment we could possibly need. Ever.), then it's only fair to have our bad ass-ery in the fluff refelected by our in game power. No? Getting tabled by the GK in a turn or two (I mean, if the Galaxy's worst villains can't stand up to us, no one can...) would be no fun. Then I suppose we should all compromise on in game balance, and all be as varied and potent as each other. Monobuilds get old and boring quickly. And should *never* be excused upon players due to arbitrary fluff reasons. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/297814-gk-players-needed-to-fix-the-gk-dex/page/2/#findComment-3835616 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Everon Posted October 17, 2014 Share Posted October 17, 2014 Well due to my computer failing the adepts are saying prayers to the machine spirit to fix it. In the mean time I am working off my phone. As I am not of the mechanicum with this thing here ill do little by little via edits. But here is one ive been trying to post up to start and will add on too tomorrow since its late already. Gk codex ideas Hq characters -Prognosticar Hyperion 190 points WS BS S T W I A Ld Sv 5 6 4 4 3 5 3 10 2+ Wargear: Articifier Armour Personal teleporter Iron Halo Stormbolter Bolt pistol Castellan ward stave* Frag grenades Krak grenades Pysk out grenades Special rules : Pysker master 2 And they shall know no fear Brotherhood of pyskers Independent character Deep strike Split fire Two Guns* Mirror pysker* May take spells from tables Divination, Daemonology (Sanctic), Telekinesis, Pyromancy, Telepathy *castellan warding stave is a relic item. It follows all stats of a warding stave but in addition allows rerolls of failed castings. *mirror pysker- a model with this rule may use a random spell from your opponents closest pysker at the beginning of the game in addition to those your model already knows. If the enemy has no pyskers then the model gains no extra spells. *Two guns- in lieu of use of his staff (and its abilities) this model may fire two weapons in the shooting phase. This model may replace his bolt pistol with one of the following : Inferno pistol.......5pts Plasma pistol.......5pts Grav pistol............10 pts This model may replace his Articifier armour and personal teleporter with terminator dreadnought armor for free ------- Librarian Gared 200 points WS BS S T I A Ld Sv 6 5 6 6 4 4 10 2+ Type: Unique (Monstrous Creature) Wargear : Nemesis Dreadknight Armour Powerfist Nemesis Greatsword Special rules: And they shall know no fear Brotherhood of pyskers Pysker mastery 3 Independent character Deepstrike It will not die Reneforced shielding- conveys a 4+ invulnerable save May take spells from tables Divination, Daemonology (Sanctic), Telekinesis, Pyromancy, Telepathy May take a personal teleporter for 30 points May take two of the following (only one of each) Heavy incenerator 15 pts Gatling psilencer 20 pts Heavy pyscannon 25 pts _____________ Formations *Vigilance of the Venerables When 3 Dreadnoughts are taken and are within 4" of one another, any one sanctuary casted by a dreadnought conveys a 5+ invulnerable on all dreadnoughts in the formation. All saves are re-rollable. In addition to this all units within 12" of the center Dreadnought have a standard +1 to their invulnerable save as well as a 6+ feel no pain as they are inspired to fight to death just as those before them. ________________ Fixs : Paladins Cost 45 points per model Purgation squad. Special rule fix Astral Aim- all shots count as twinlinked. In addition any flyer with range can be hit on a roll of 5+. Relentless Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/297814-gk-players-needed-to-fix-the-gk-dex/page/2/#findComment-3835875 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ishagu Posted October 17, 2014 Share Posted October 17, 2014 That is a nice sounding character! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/297814-gk-players-needed-to-fix-the-gk-dex/page/2/#findComment-3836066 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rurik the blessed Posted October 17, 2014 Share Posted October 17, 2014 According to the fluff, i think the role of prognosticar is bounded to the use of Divination, and I would change the Mirror Psyker for a "Psychic communication" instead (to aid the reserve). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/297814-gk-players-needed-to-fix-the-gk-dex/page/2/#findComment-3836130 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Everon Posted October 17, 2014 Share Posted October 17, 2014 I thought about that as well, but for Hyperion's lore (Emperor's Gift) he already knew telekinetic before he learned divination as well as knowing telepathy and even used a smidgen of pyromancy. Figured it was best since as a rare breed to have him open to options. But always up for changing things around for the balance effort. Ill have another char and formation editted in throughout the day today and maybe more. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/297814-gk-players-needed-to-fix-the-gk-dex/page/2/#findComment-3836162 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quozzo Posted October 17, 2014 Share Posted October 17, 2014 It's not that I don't enjoy reading others DIY, but the point of this thread it fix what we currently have. While new ICs and weapons may be great, it doesn't fix the crux of the problem. An IC in AA with a psycannon is going to suffer the same as any PAGK. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/297814-gk-players-needed-to-fix-the-gk-dex/page/2/#findComment-3836185 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ishagu Posted October 17, 2014 Share Posted October 17, 2014 The codex would be fixed with access to a Predator and the Hunter/Stalker... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/297814-gk-players-needed-to-fix-the-gk-dex/page/2/#findComment-3836282 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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