Can not beat my friends Thunderwolf Calvary

[veers]

I've lost every game vs my friend since he started fielding TWC. We usually play 1k-1200.  I'm open to any options at this point.

He will usually brings a lord on a wolf with them. 

They have 3+ 3++ 2W.  They have 4A each plus counter and T5 S5.  All have the storm shield.  All but one have storm claws (S+1 AP3).  The last one has a power fist and at S10 = instand death.  The lord can re roll on failed save.  The units have low model counts, so template weapons don't do enough hits to make it through to actually wound.  This makes them really tough to take down.   

The best ive done is a DP with BMace and spawn body guards, but this is insanely expensive and I still didn't win the face off. 

I'm thinking about infiltrating 20 Noise marines for an alpha strike, but with BS 4 and W strength 4 vs T5, 60 ish shots equals roughly 2 unsaved wounds.  Then they are well gone past my range. 

[Kierdale]

Can you tar pit them with a mass of cultists? Or lots of small cultist units fed to them. Pen them in.

If you don't need to kill them then just keep them busy.

[daboarder]

charge em with a bunch of terminators, your preference on mark but Slaanesh/Khorne would be a good choice

[Uprising]

Any chance for load-outs(weapons, size of squad etc?) 

 

At that small point level, throw a squad of 35 cultist, and tarpit them. 

[veers]

I appreciate the comments, but I'm still unsure.  W/ 20-25 attacks on the charge vs T3 cultists, they wont last a turn.  This makes them a speed bump at best.  Unless they are Zombies they will lose first round combat and run.  This is assuming that I can throw a blob of cultists in the way of units that can move up to 18 inches per tern. 

[Emperors Immortals]

I've used rhinos lately. My friend takes a similar unit, but only 2 shields. I'll use 3 rhinos to pen them in and keep them in one basic place (conga style) and work on the rest of the army first. Maybe a helcult could help too, the flamers and MM should take a wound or two and the detachment could get you 2 more turns.

 

That's about 250 pts to contain a game winning 450pt unit, might be worth it? How about msu daemon allies instead?

[Kilofix]

With their 3++ you want High Strength, High Volume of Fire. Forget about AP.

 

So:

• Forgefiend with Dual Hades
• Heldrake with Hades or Baleflamer
• Stationary Noise Marines with Salvo 3 Sonics
• Predator with AC & Dual Heavy Bolters
• Havocs with quad Heavy Bolter
• Bastion with Heavy Bolters
• Obliterators with Assault Cannons

 

Possibly even a Vindicator which can ID them.

[Lord Abyssous]

Just shoot, shoot, shoot and shoot them. Also using 30 cultists with apostle is somewhat useful, just remember to keep the apostle as far as possible to avoid any inconvenient challenges.

[Excessus]

Well, you can make a pretty decent unit yourself to counter it. MoN Spawns with a MoN lord on a bike, with the CS artifacts. You can also have a  lvl 3 unmarked sorcerer in the unit with biomancy, hoping for iron arm, endurance, enfeeble and such. With force he can instakill the wolves and he'll have T6 as long as there are other units alive anyway, the lord can grab the challenge so the sorcerer can support from the shadows...

[UlsanGamer]

Helcults are great. Bog them down in fearless cultists.

 

Khârn in a maxed unit of cultists could work well too.

[bozo69pd]

That is very easy to counter if that is all he is throwing at you. CS Codex Nurgle Biker lord with blight grenade, daemonheart, sigil for 2+/4++ save and IWND. I figure he is going to be challenging the power fist guy. Nurgle spawn. As many Nurgle spawn as you can fill.

 

The blight grenade is cheap and if you are very lucky can reduce them to WS/BS 1. If they charge you they gain no bonus attack. If you get lucky with your spawn attack roll you may end up with 40 S 5 attacks on the charge.

 

You could always field heldrake which they will be powerless to stop. Also I don't think they can hurt soul grinders if you ally in daemons. They would need 6's to glance helbrutes right?

[Theis]

Having played Thunderwolf cav since they first appeared in the last codex, this is the list of things I have found them dieing to;

• Plasma in any form, Leman Russ executioners in particular
• Anything even better than they are in close combat, particularly if its initiative is higher than that of the twolves.
• Anything that forces them to roll saves in large quantities, volume of fire mostly, high str fire being preferred.
• Anything that lowers their leadership coupled with enough wounds to force a morale check. (Watching 400 points of your army run off the field  is insanely annoying)
• Str 10

With the loadout you've indicated for your friend, he's got at least 400 points tied up in a six man unit, plus the lord. So, that leaves about 1400 points in the rest of his list? That can be used to your advantage. As others have suggested, a cultist, or other tarpit may be the way to do so. If you tie him up for a turn or two with something significantly less costly than his twolves, you may be able to leverage that.

 

I've seen cultist blobs with Khârn or a Khorne Axe Lord used effectively. Blight grenades have proved irksome in the past. 

 

Pretty much any of the ideas earlier in the thread can be effective. 

 

Mostly, that unit is going to dictate a lot of your friend's tactics. Getting them stuck in is going to be the crux of his plan, anything you can do to disrupt that, whether through delaying them with a tarpit, or shooting them off the table, should be your goal. 

 

There's also nothing wrong with feeding them a unit you know will lose the combat is it holds them up for a turn. Three, hundred point units, fed one after another, could tie him up for three consecutive turns, do absolutely no damage, and you'd still have effectively neutralized 600 points worth of models and come out ahead on the trade.

 

Twolves the way he has them set up make a good rock list, but share a lot of the weaknesses of any rock list. 

[Hidicul]

Force weapons should do the trick as well. You only need one wound to get through to wipe out a model. Take a Sorcerer with the Mark of Tzeentch to unlock thousand sons as troops and take a bunch of 5-10 man squads and try and use thier force weapons to take them out.

[Silverson]

How about a khorne lord on juggernaut with aobf,soc,votlw. That's 6+d6 attacks on the charge with re rolls to hit and wound in the first round of combat with strength 7. Take them with a squad of 5 warp talons (here me out on this) the warp talon champion can take the challenge, so The Lord can attack the unit first and do approx 8 wounds failing probably 3 wounds then the warp talons go at the same time with 12 attacks re rolls from votlw, and re rolls to wound getting 9 wounds failing about 3 so that would be approx 6 wounds caused then you have the warp talon champion probably gets squished.

 

Any chance you can tel us how many models are in his setup so we know many wounds we need to get ? And also can you tel me how The Lord re rolls failed saves? I tried to look for it but couldn't see.

 

This set up sets you back about 370 points I'm not sure how that come up against his unit but any more info would be great.

[the jeske]

Take them with a squad of 5 warp talons (here me out on this) the warp talon champion can take the challenge, so The Lord can attack the unit first and do approx 8 wounds failing probably 3 wounds then the warp talons go at the same time with 12 attacks re rolls from votlw, and re rolls to wound getting 9 wounds failing about 3 so that would be approx 6 wounds caused then you have the warp talon champion probably gets squished.

 

 

only the lords overkills the champion and the wounds spillover on to the unit+lord. and even if he does 10A ,wounds with 8-9 they are still saving on++3 with 2 wounds that is maybe 3 dudes and that is under most optimal conditions[and next turn the lord and what ever talons/raptors are left die hard].

 

3 things. Avoid the star. Charge it with your own which  limits number of hits recived with invisibility,+2 sv[from CS] HQ to tank the claw wounds or if FW is ok take one of the new LR and load up on terminators and multiple +2sv force weapon armed HQs.

[Brother Ambroz]

I fought something like this with the old SW codex, except it was 4 wolf lords. The guy used 2+/3++ so I had to use copious amounts of plasma, but since your friend only has 3+/3++ it doesn't matter what you shoot at him. High strength large quantities are your friend, as others have said. If you want to take him down in CC then go with a CS Nurgle deathstar like the others described. The big thing is focus fire on them, worst comes to worst and you fail to kill them with a couple rounds of shooting, bubble wrap them with cultists to buy yourself more time.

[Sheesh Mode]

A couple vindicators or a helcult can handle that unit with ease, though certainly don't rely on the Vindicators as the wolves are carrying storm shields. In my experience models like that - while powerful - are prone to being tied down and held in assault for many phases if they cannot cause a leadership test. That's the purpose of cultist mobs, to distract the enemy. Furthermore, throwing a powerfist equipped Helbrute into the mix can cause headaches what with it's s10 ap2 attacks. 

[veers]

lots of good advice here.  Thank you.

[Hidicul]

Thinking outside the box here so indulge me. A couple vindicate assassins could bring down one per turn, or two if their only one wound models. The shield breaker round will negate the shields and the standard ap will cut through their PA. Just don't set up within 12" of any of your chaos. If you want to be really mean splurge the 100 points for a 3 layer void shield for them to hide on.

[Iron_Within]

Nurgle Spawn or a Maulerfiend with Invisbility. Lasher Tendrils are an option for the Maulerfiend but it is less efficient. Spawn are the better choice as they are 180 points and can put out up to 35 attacks which will chip away at the the Wolves.  If he is wise to you tarpitting the unit you can use the unit as an area denial. He won't want to put the Wolves near the Spawn so you can use them to cover your valuable units.

[the jeske]

Well truth be told the SW death star looks more a bit like this

 

SW lord

WS librarian or WS chapter master

5 Wolfs 3 fists 2 clawas 5 shields

1 Iron priest

 

Then it is more problematic, because of the trait stacking and more high str attacks. IMO it is good that OP SW friend is not starting the FtN with optimal build.

[bozo69pd]

Ah yeah more fists is stronger. I'd probably try to multi charge nurgle spawn into him.

[ChainMachete]

Ally in some daemons.

 

3 Nurglings pay the troop tax, are cheap and with 7th edition rules, are now amazing for holding objectives (infiltrate, objective secured, shrouded and swarm!). And if you can get the old metal ones, it's really easy to place them so your opponent can't even get line-of-sight.

 

Then 20 Flesh Hounds with a Khorne Herald on a Juggernaut with the locus that gives the unit rage and a greater etherblade. That unit is going to cost the same number of points as your friends wolves, but is much better. 6 S7 AP2 WS7 I6 attacks (with a master-crafted weapon) from the Herald and 80 S5 WS5 I4 attacks from the Hound if you get the charge and 43 wounds in the unit. Which will wipe out his wolves and then some. And with the unit having scout as well as being beasts, with careful planning and a bit of luck, you should be getting that charge most of the time. Even without the charge you'll still get 4 S6 AP2 WS7 I6 and 40 S4 WS5 I4 attacks, so worst case, you'll probably wipe each other out. You could save some points and drop it down to say 15 hounds and still wipe him out on the charge, but you may struggle if he gets the charge on you.

 

If your CSM detachment uses psykers then you could always replace the Nurglings with 11 or 16 Pink Horrors to act as a warp charge battery and fairly durable back field objective campers.

[khurdur]

BTW, I think that a powerfist on thunderwolf goes to S9, not S10, his str is doubled before adding +1 for the wolf. So no instant death.

[Theis]

It depends on the thunderwolf. Base thunderwolves are str5. per their statline. So, the powerfist or thunder hammer does, in fact make them str10. 

 

Wolf Lords and Wolf Lord battle Leaders are str4, the thunderwolf mount wargear adds str, a wound, etc. So, there is an argument to be made that with a fist they are effectively str 9, per the logic you outline, however, in the last codex's faq, it was ruled that they are increased to base str 5 and t 5 with the addition of the mount wargear, and were in fact str10 with the fist or hammer, only vulnerable to ID from str10, etc.

 

There is not a faq for the current dex, currently. Until there is, the arguments devolve down to, current codex says the mount / wargear  adds to base stats, but the BRB says it works the way you outline. 

 

Personally, I just don't run my wolf lords with unwieldy weapons, and avoid the issue. However, there is pretty much no argument to be made that base thunderwolves, the actual unit, with fists and hammers aren't str10. The weapons are x2 str, and the thunderwolf unit profile doesn't reference anything but base str 5, base toughness 5, and so on.