Should the next CSM Codex Mirror the SM Codex setup?

[Slave to Darkness]

Id be happy if they gave us the vet skills back we had in 3.5 dex, that gave us some good choices, I used to play a lot of cityfight back in the day and having a Death Guard army with move through cover running rings around my mates Templars army as he got bogged down in terrain was hilarious. when he learnt from that and used a more mobile force I switched to an all infiltrating army and deployed right in his face and rapid fired the crap outta him before he even got outta his deployment zone then charged in and slapped him about. 

 

I'd also like to be able to have Plague Marine Lords, Termies, Havocs etc. Same with the other Gods favored eg Bezerker, Noise Marine, Ruberic Termies etc, even if they just gave us those options back I'm sure some ppl would be happy, maybe let us have a list of other things to chose from like Night vision (Night Lords) Zealot (Word Bearers) Rage (World Eaters), not saying these should be for the legions I have named with the skill, just using them for fluff reasons. More choice in wargear would be nice, more Daemon weapons ( cmon, cant say they dont have ideas, how many were there in RoC?) Combat Drugs and other sexy little things, I don't think we need more/new units in our army, just different ways of using them. 

[Slave to Darkness]

 

 

And with regards to the legions being gone debate, it's mostly true for some legions-world eaters come to mind given they are so fractured, however legions like the word bearers, iron warriors and black legion are still fairly united and well organized. 

I wouldn't say Black Legion are a 'Legion' like the Word Bearers, as they have a lot of dregs from other forces so they wouldn't really have a proper 'Fluff rule', t would be like saying 'look at this cool football team' made up of one footballer, a tennis payer, a clown one rugby player, a window cleaner, a Fedex delivery driver, , a fragile rugby player in body armour (I hear these are called 'american football player in the states) a chef, a llama, a jamaican bobsleigh team and Matt Ward...

[BrainFireBob]

Seven options? I count 5..

 

A bonus for chaos undivided units is something I'd love to see (in fantasy as well). Sadly I doubt it will happen though. And I don't really see it as too space marine like to give each legion just a small bonus-nothing major, just something like night vision for night lords, maybe tank hunters for iron warriors. Traits for big renegade warbands like red corsairs would be cool as well. Would that really be sufficient to give each legion its own character? Not really but it would be a good start. 

 

And with regards to the legions being gone debate, it's mostly true for some legions-world eaters come to mind given they are so fractured, however legions like the word bearers, iron warriors and black legion are still fairly united and well organized. 

 

One for each mono-mark

One for undivided

One for nothing

And the benefit for the last option, is getting to mix marks but not getting the extra spiffy bitz.

 

Not sure if it could be balanced, but I'd like to see it.

 

EDIT:

 

I'm normally against returning things from 3.5- the synergies were just terrible and broke the meta, Daemonic Stature and Dreadaxe springs to mind, as does Siren Prince- but a points discount would work for me- if you're monomarked, you get your marked units cheaper, if you're mixed, you pay extra but get the mix, etc.

 

I didn't like the free champ for sacred numbers, but don't have an axe to grind on a similar discount just for mono-marking.

 

*Mainly because the numbers worked out in some cases and were bad in others, it was pretty arbitrary.

 

MOAR Edits:

 

Something like monomarked- your units are cheaper (Free Icons?) but you have to mark your vehicles.

 

Unmarked, everything is just cheap

 

Mixed mark, your cult units cost more but your armor is cheaper.

 

Something as basic as that fosters some creativity in list-building.

 

EDIT:

 

Also, the Legion traits you mention sum the problem. Tank Hunters? Huge trait. Night Vision? Pretty minor trait. IW should have something like tank hunters against fortifications only and be fearless within 6" of any friendly fortification, or normal BS (Or BS2, you get the idea) when firing Overwatch from within fortifications. That would be comparable with Night Vision.

[Lord Asvaldir]

 

 

 

 

 

And with regards to the legions being gone debate, it's mostly true for some legions-world eaters come to mind given they are so fractured, however legions like the word bearers, iron warriors and black legion are still fairly united and well organized. 

I wouldn't say Black Legion are a 'Legion' like the Word Bearers, as they have a lot of dregs from other forces so they wouldn't really have a proper 'Fluff rule', t would be like saying 'look at this cool football team' made up of one footballer, a tennis payer, a clown one rugby player, a window cleaner, a Fedex delivery driver, , a fragile rugby player in body armour (I hear these are called 'american football player in the states) a chef, a llama, a jamaican bobsleigh team and Matt Ward...

 

Well yes the Blacks have added a lot more marines that were not originally Son of Horus over the years, however my point was is they are still one organized army under the command of abbadon opposed to the World Eaters which are largely fractured and a very large portion are no longer loyal to Angrim. 

 

@Brainfirebob: that makes sense, I was assuming if you didn't have one of the four marks a unit would automatically count as having the undivided mark, though that certainly doesn't have to be the case and could represent new renegades who don't have any blessings yet. 

[Kol Saresk]

Well yes the Blacks have added a lot more marines that were not originally Son of Horus over the years,

That's the kicker, all of the Legions have Astartes who were not around for the Heresy kicking about, whether it be a Renegade(s) who found comradeship with the Sanctified(a Word Bearer warband), or a recently implanted recruit of the Iron Warriors.

 

But you also just pointed out the whole point of the "Legions are dead" side of the fence. It isn't that there are no more Word Bearers, Night Lords or Alpha Legion running about, but its that none of them are organized like a Legion anymore. A small few have some type of hierarchy in place, but that hierarchy only applies to those warbands who choose to obey it. Even then, those hierarchies are still subject to infighting. None of the Nine Traitor Legions are whole. They are not Legion.

 

And that is where we run into A D-B's point. 8 out of 8 Word Bearer warbands are likely to have a religious zeal that trickles into their combat doctrine of forever going forward, never backward. But one might be Ashen Circle turned Raptors, another might be all Possessed, a third might be a tank regiment and a fourth might be a gunline of mechanized infantry. And then there are the ideologies. One might be Chaos UnMarked. One might be Chaos Undivided. Another mono-Marked. And a fourth might have lost their faith in Chaos and Lorgar and instead only fight to destroy anything that stands before them and crush it underfoot.

 

So giving them "Traits" in a vein similar to Forgeworld would be a start, but it would still be shallow. Because the Forces of Chaos range more than just Nine Broken Legions. There are countless cults, Dark Mechanicum sects, Traitor Guard regiments, Knight Houses and Renegade Chapters, each with their own history and benefit.

 

Writing all of that down though is time-consuming to the Nth degree.

[A D-B]

 

The point in the this message is thus: the chaos legions are no more. Defunct. Get over it. We have renegades and warbands. Use them. Crush your foes.

If you still want to field a legion, paint it black and hail the Warmaster.

 

And this is entirely the problem with the anti-Legion argument.  Sure, there's no Legions any more.  But if you were recruited by a Legion that uses lots of tanks, trenches, and artillery; were trained to use lots of tanks, trenches, and artillery; became an expert in the use of lots of tanks, trenches, and artillery; and trained the next generation of your Legion to use lots of tanks, trenches, and artillery; doesn't it make sense that despite no longer belonging to the Legion, you would still retain your expertise in the use lots of tanks, trenches, and artillery?

 

When it comes to rules, the color of the paint scheme shouldn't matter.  How they operate, that should be the key point.

 

 

No. Christ, no. The entirety of the problem with the "anti-Legion argument" is when people believe that is the anti-Legion argument. In hundreds and hundreds of words about choice and variety, at no point is there anyone saying "The Legions should be bad at what they were once great at" or "They should never receive bonuses for what they were great at". 

 

Quite the opposite. Even in this thread, I've spent hundreds of words saying the exact opposite. There's what they were once great at, and a lot more to them now. Acknowledging that isn't "anti-Legion". It's what Chaos Marines are, and always have been. 

 

Reducing it to an "anti-Legion argument" is a massive strawman, and why it's so difficult to discuss this stuff.

[Loesh]

 

No. Christ, no. The entirety of the problem with the "anti-Legion argument" is when people believe that is the anti-Legion argument. In hundreds and hundreds of words about choice and variety, at no point is there anyone saying "The Legions should be bad at what they were once great at" or "They should never receive bonuses for what they were great at". 

 

Quite the opposite. Even in this thread, I've spent hundreds of words saying the exact opposite. There's what they were once great at, and a lot more to them now. Acknowledging that isn't "anti-Legion". It's what Chaos Marines are, and always have been. 

 

Reducing it to an "anti-Legion argument" is a massive strawman, and why it's so difficult to discuss this stuff.

 

 

Hm, this sounds like a reasonable take....but that's exactly what an Anti-Legionist would say.

 

Srsly though, what should we call that extreme to distinguish? Legion Abolitionism? Slaanesh knows entire forum Civil Wars have been waged over this, certainly.

[Kol Saresk]

Why call it anything? Why not just call it "variety"?

[Loesh]

Why call it anything? Why not just call it "variety"?

 

I'm talking about what ADB is quoting Kol. :p

[Kol Saresk]

So was I.

[Loesh]

So was I.

 

*Shrugs* Then i'm afraid your train of thought completely baffles me. That's not variety, that's the exact opposite. You're essentially saying that because the Legions splintered the Legions can never be relevant.

[Hellrender]

You need to read carefully.

 

Several times its pointed out that just because legion organisation is dead that doesnt mean legion traits are. But legiin traits are no longer as defined as they are for loyalists and hh era marines.

 

That is variety.

 

You have the basis background of a legion (legion traits).

 

But since legions are dead natural variation startsbto exist. So you have variables on top of legion traits

 

Chaos god dedication

Way of war (artillery, close up, daemons, walkers, sorcery, slaves, trenches).

 

Hooe I come across. Hard to write on a phone.

The legions are dead doesnt mean they dislearned their original traits. It just means that there are dozens of other variables learned on top.

 

Like adb said: a very big book

[Loesh]

You need to read carefully.

 

Several times its pointed out that just because legion organisation is dead that doesnt mean legion traits are. But legiin traits are no longer as defined as they are for loyalists and hh era marines.

 

That is variety.

 

You have the basis background of a legion (legion traits).

 

But since legions are dead natural variation startsbto exist. So you have variables on top of legion traits

 

Chaos god dedication

Way of war (artillery, close up, daemons, walkers, sorcery, slaves, trenches).

 

Hooe I come across. Hard to write on a phone.

The legions are dead doesnt mean they dislearned their original traits. It just means that there are dozens of other variables learned on top.

 

Like adb said: a very big book

 

Which is exactly what i'm vouching for. Which is why Kols post is confusing me, I think he thinks i'm referring to ADB and not walpurgisnacht, but maybe i'm completely wrong.

[Chaos Lord Rakarial 20]

Now i dont play one of the none original traitor legions (mine being a chapter who turned to chaos in M34 and have managed to reach legion size 10k marines) however what about a traits system you can pick say 3 traits and in return for taking these traits you get certain benefits for example one could be

Master of the horde

You may take up to 50 cultists in a troo choice however your compulsory troop slots must be taking up by cultists

[daboarder]

You need to read carefully.

 

Several times its pointed out that just because legion organisation is dead that doesnt mean legion traits are. But legiin traits are no longer as defined as they are for loyalists and hh era marines.

 

That is variety.

 

You have the basis background of a legion (legion traits).

 

But since legions are dead natural variation startsbto exist. So you have variables on top of legion traits

 

Chaos god dedication

Way of war (artillery, close up, daemons, walkers, sorcery, slaves, trenches).

 

Hooe I come across. Hard to write on a phone.

The legions are dead doesnt mean they dislearned their original traits. It just means that there are dozens of other variables learned on top.

 

Like adb said: a very big book

Wait, If only there was some way, some set of rules that could be easily adapted to represent a wide range of combat doctrines with a minimal increase in book length, only one page or two....Its just such a damned shame that such a monuments glorious piece of work is impossible. 

 

 

 

 

 

OH....WAIT...........

[Kol Saresk]

You need to read carefully.

Several times its pointed out that just because legion organisation is dead that doesnt mean legion traits are. But legiin traits are no longer as defined as they are for loyalists and hh era marines.

That is variety.

You have the basis background of a legion (legion traits).

But since legions are dead natural variation startsbto exist. So you have variables on top of legion traits

Chaos god dedication

Way of war (artillery, close up, daemons, walkers, sorcery, slaves, trenches).

Hooe I come across. Hard to write on a phone.

The legions are dead doesnt mean they dislearned their original traits. It just means that there are dozens of other variables learned on top.

Like adb said: a very big book

Which is exactly what i'm vouching for. Which is why Kols post is confusing me, I think he thinks i'm referring to ADB and not walpurgisnacht, but maybe i'm completely wrong.

Well to be fair, you did say you were replying to A D-B's post, which was a response to Deus Ex Ferrum.

So apologies for the miscommunication.

[Lay]

Too bad that the (lack of) organization within the legions is always brought up in these threads. It's just plain misleading.

 

In 40k, all major factions have sub-factions that represent different themes. Thousand Sons and Ulthé are sorcerers, Death Korps and Iron Warriors are siege experts, White Scars, Saim Hann and Evil Sunz are motorized, fast moving raiders, and so on.

It doesn't matter if they're organized in a chapter, a warband, a regiment, a clan, or a Craftworld. You can make up special rules for any of these factions and they would all be equally valid.

 

Granted, you can also try to cram everything into a single list, but that doesn't always work - it certainly hasn't worked for CSM.

 

Also, players can make up whatever fringe group they want in the fluff, like, let's say a bunch of agnostic Word Bearers and yes, legion rules will probably fail to cover them properly, but that's just missing the point of what legion rules are trying to convey and what WB as a faction are meant to be. WB are the religious CSM faction, that's their overall theme, and what their rules would be (and have been) build around. Likewise, Honsou or whatever mongrel warband with hazard stripes that exists won't make siege themed special rules any less fitting for IW.

 

Seriously, right now Codex Chapters alone have rules for 7 Chapters + 11 more from FW. Not to mention 3 supplements and the variant lists from the Badab Books. I want some of that!

[Vesper]

"Legion Tactics" sort of feels like the barest basics of possibility. I mean, I'd accept it and enjoy it, because it's nice to take the first few steps on a long journey. But it's still only the first few steps. It's hardly the whole race.

 

What I'd like would be enough options and customisability to create pretty much any kind of warband, and make them distinctive in whatever way I felt necessary, either because they're Night Lords or because they're Khornate, or newly-rebelled, or are a warband that creates daemon engines as their main strength, or whatever else. With special rules to reflect each chosen theme. But that's a lot to ask. The book would be a bajillion pages long. The Chaos Codex already tries that approach, but the level of insane variety I'm talking about would be a book the size of... a really big book. 

 

You can shorten it some. Look at how Forge World do it. They have a few Legion traits, and while they're very welcome they're also arguably the least defining traits of an army, compared to the Rite of War you choose, the special units you have available, and the masses and masses of unit options you can choose to show your theme.

 

So, sure, Legion Tactics are a cute step. But as 15-20% of the solution, not the entire thing. They're a very limited answer to a broad slice of lore. Chaos Marines have many, many more possibilities open to them than narrowly-defined Chapters. Most Battle Companies will look very similar. But take 25 Night Lord warbands, and 15-25 of them won't look anything like the others beyond their ideologies and preference for when to strike. That's the sort of thing that should be reflected (which, you'll notice, Forge World does very well, and not through something as simple as just going for "Legion Tactics".)

 

We have precedent for how it works well, encouraging choice and variety: we have Forge World. Chaos that up a lot, add even more variety to reflect the Chaos Marine experience, and I'd be over the moon.

 

We have precedent for how it works terribly and limits people: we have the old Index Astartes 'box rules', with "All Raptors, All the Time" and "0-1 Basilisks". Lord, no. 

 

Dude, the only thing you have to do is ask Alan Bligh to make FW books on Abaddon's Black Crusades.

And by ask i mean force.

[Loesh]

You need to read carefully.

Several times its pointed out that just because legion organisation is dead that doesnt mean legion traits are. But legiin traits are no longer as defined as they are for loyalists and hh era marines.

That is variety.

You have the basis background of a legion (legion traits).

But since legions are dead natural variation startsbto exist. So you have variables on top of legion traits

Chaos god dedication

Way of war (artillery, close up, daemons, walkers, sorcery, slaves, trenches).

Hooe I come across. Hard to write on a phone.

The legions are dead doesnt mean they dislearned their original traits. It just means that there are dozens of other variables learned on top.

Like adb said: a very big book

Which is exactly what i'm vouching for. Which is why Kols post is confusing me, I think he thinks i'm referring to ADB and not walpurgisnacht, but maybe i'm completely wrong.

Well to be fair, you did say you were replying to A D-B's post, which was a response to Deus Ex Ferrum.

So apologies for the miscommunication.

It's fine, what I was saying was in relation to ADBs post which was in relation to Ferrum who was in relation to Walp, and that there was there should be a distinction between Anti-Legion sentiments...in fact I wouldn't call them Anti-legion, but Legion/Warband supplementary sentiments, and people who want Legion abolishment. They are two very different beasts but are placed into the same category.

[Kol Saresk]

You need to read carefully.

Several times its pointed out that just because legion organisation is dead that doesnt mean legion traits are. But legiin traits are no longer as defined as they are for loyalists and hh era marines.

That is variety.

You have the basis background of a legion (legion traits).

But since legions are dead natural variation startsbto exist. So you have variables on top of legion traits

Chaos god dedication

Way of war (artillery, close up, daemons, walkers, sorcery, slaves, trenches).

Hooe I come across. Hard to write on a phone.

The legions are dead doesnt mean they dislearned their original traits. It just means that there are dozens of other variables learned on top.

Like adb said: a very big book

Which is exactly what i'm vouching for. Which is why Kols post is confusing me, I think he thinks i'm referring to ADB and not walpurgisnacht, but maybe i'm completely wrong.

Well to be fair, you did say you were replying to A D-B's post, which was a response to Deus Ex Ferrum.

So apologies for the miscommunication.

It's fine, what I was saying was in relation to ADBs post which was in relation to Ferrum who was in relation to Walp, and that there was there should be a distinction between Anti-Legion sentiments...in fact I wouldn't call them Anti-legion, but Legion/Warband supplementary sentiments, and people who want Legion abolishment. They are two very different beasts but are placed into the same category.

Very true.

[Loesh]

You need to read carefully.

Several times its pointed out that just because legion organisation is dead that doesnt mean legion traits are. But legiin traits are no longer as defined as they are for loyalists and hh era marines.

That is variety.

You have the basis background of a legion (legion traits).

But since legions are dead natural variation startsbto exist. So you have variables on top of legion traits

Chaos god dedication

Way of war (artillery, close up, daemons, walkers, sorcery, slaves, trenches).

Hooe I come across. Hard to write on a phone.

The legions are dead doesnt mean they dislearned their original traits. It just means that there are dozens of other variables learned on top.

Like adb said: a very big book

Which is exactly what i'm vouching for. Which is why Kols post is confusing me, I think he thinks i'm referring to ADB and not walpurgisnacht, but maybe i'm completely wrong.

Well to be fair, you did say you were replying to A D-B's post, which was a response to Deus Ex Ferrum.

So apologies for the miscommunication.

It's fine, what I was saying was in relation to ADBs post which was in relation to Ferrum who was in relation to Walp, and that there was there should be a distinction between Anti-Legion sentiments...in fact I wouldn't call them Anti-legion, but Legion/Warband supplementary sentiments, and people who want Legion abolishment. They are two very different beasts but are placed into the same category.

Very true.

Plus I wanted to cut it down before this happened.

Which is the post chain getting a tad ridiculous.

[Cpt_Reaper]

What if...and just take a moment to think about this...Chaos had a system similar to the 4th Edition Space Marine codex traits? With a number of benefits and drawbacks depending on (in this case) how Chaos is your force. If you are sort of Chaos (recently renegade) you'd have a lot of generic Space marine vehicles and gear but less access to say Daemon Engines and cult units. If you were really REALLY Chaos you'd have Daemon Engines, cult units and spawn coming out your ears but you may have less access to generic Space Marine gear and vehicles.

 

A good idea?

What if...and just take a moment to think about this...Chaos had a system similar to the 4th Edition Space Marine codex traits? With a number of benefits and drawbacks depending on (in this case) how Chaos is your force. If you are sort of Chaos (recently renegade) you'd have a lot of generic Space marine vehicles and gear but less access to say Daemon Engines and cult units. If you were really REALLY Chaos you'd have Daemon Engines, cult units and spawn coming out your ears but you may have less access to generic Space Marine gear and vehicles.

 

A good idea?

 

sorry if this double posts...my internet is being stupid and isn't loading

[Kol Saresk]

That 's how it always works. There is the view that the Legions are the only thing Chaos should be worried about, there is the view that the Legions are worthless and then there is the view Legions aren't quite as narrowly defined as they used to be because they no longer exist in such a defined state and not only, but Chaos includes and goes far, far, far eyind just the Legions. The latter two are typically called "anti-legion" with only the first of those two being an actual anti-Legion sentiment while the first is a desire to see something in the vein of 3.5 or to mimic Forgeworld's Legions. But their focus is solely on the Legions, which(to me) is misguided when the Legions are only a portion of Chaos. And would ultimately be why I wouldn't want someone with that mindset writing the rules for my army.

 

And while Forgeworld could try, their main focus is the Imperium, not Chaos, and a true Chaos Codex that fully encompasses just the Chaos Space Marines would be huge.

 

And to just worry about the Legions would make all of that effort monumentally wasteful.

[Shuggnuggath]

Shouldn't recent renegades be a Supplement Codex for Space Marines?  With a modified Allies matrix and its own set of Relics and Warlord traits. Would make a lot of sense imo.

[Nehekhare]

I'll bite and - just out of spite - say that at this point, I would even more like to see the loyalist marines rules entirely negated and all of the divergent, non-essential variations folded back into Codex: Ultramarines. If someone still wanted to play SW/DA/BA/GK or any of the other chapters, he would be entirely able to do so just by fielding appropriately painted standart SM units in an unbound army...