Should the next CSM Codex Mirror the SM Codex setup?

[incinerator950]

No, GW will make a Unicorn demon engine that will be the new formation rave that Chaos players need to buy.

[Emperors Immortals]

Wait wait wait.

 

Who's on first?

[incinerator950]

Dumat is always first.

[Kol Saresk]

No, Dumat is in the dugout. Who is on first.

[Lord Lee]

I'm not sure I would want to play in the "inter-Chaos Legion-Warband Baseball League" I have a feeling they might break a few rules.......

 

Lord Lee.

[Nehekhare]

 

FW is on a good path i think, not only with IA13 but also with the HH series, i mean look at their Legions traits and rules

 

FW just needs to get their points costs right. It's a shame really all those great ideas never see the light of play only because the points you pay are triple the cost of regular codex entries (i.e. dreadclaw, every walker ever) - or in those rarer cases: only 60%, just to give people reason to cry cheese on the internets ...

[Emperors Immortals]

No, Dumat is in the dugout. Who is on first.

Well thats - that's what I'm asking you, who is on first?

[Kol Saresk]

Right, Who is on first. :P

[Shuggnuggath]

In a way the Chaos Space Marines players exist in the same dreary limbo as the players 30k legions that FW has not covered yet. I bet the Blood Angel, White Scars, Space Wolf ect fans would be just as upset if FW said they were stopping the Heresy Series at Isstavan.

[Tenebris]

Short answer: NO

 

Long answer: NO, NO, NO - Never, ever, just NO

 

Proper answer:

 

The Chaos Space Marines are a very singular faction, a very specific army which requires a very specific set of rules and a specific (again) mindest to play it. It is a shock army, it is a more melee centered army, it is a varied army and out of the box it has to come with four different army mechanics (one for each Mark) and one generic (Undivided).

 

The approach of the SM codex is not in line with what a Chaos Space Marine army needs. We have the specific (again...) need to build our book based upon a set of general units with basic profiles which are in turn highly customizable. Example:

 

Chosen Chaos Space Marines

- 4 Marks

- 9 Legions

- USR rules

- Army Wide rules

- options to make them: jump pack, terminator, power armor, mechanized,...

- mechanized or with an inbuilt mode of transportation

- highly customizable Champion

 

Also unlike other books the CSM require a very specific mechanic, a strong focus on characters of any stripe. Characters which are on par with elite characters from the other books.

 

This is only the basis for a "proper" CSM book. In fact it is a sort of army building which is already present in the form of the HH armies with the FW rules. The mechanic works and the only effort should be to make it a more chaotic book. 

 

The current SM book has generic unit entries, chapter tactics and supplements. It works when every unit entry is defined both in role, in lore and in function by a "codex" system, so everything is effectively the same bar the chapter tactics which only add some minor flavor to a certain army. This won't work for Chaos, because Chaos... is chaotic, it is varied. 

 

The thing is that we need a streamlining in costs and units, for example the Obliterators/Mutilators should be an Elite option, same for Warp Talons/Raptors and so on. The trick with the CSM book is that is should be based upon upgrades, a perfectly good and practical example are the Dwarf Runes in Warhammer Fantasy, again an example:

 

Obliterator

- Upgrade to make a Mutilator foregoing all ranged options

- upgrades in armor, marks and so on

- upgrade with a "doctrine"

To make things simple limit the upgrades to a maximum of three per unit so an upgraded Obliterator would cost, say 90 but it will be an unit tailored to our view of the warband we play. On top of this upgrades come the Marks and the "Legion Traits".

 

Is this a complex thing? No, not even remotely if you return the Chaos Space Marines to its role as an "elite" "shock" and "brutal" army, with a low model count and with very expensive units. In this way a CSM player is 100% that he can field the very unit he envisions in the fluff of his warband (say Warp Talons upgraded with "daemonic" claws for a d6 attacks once per game... ) but he can also say peacefully that he plays an x traior legion, not only that but perhaps a Raptor Cult, an Iron Warriors Infantry Brigade, a Thousand Sons armoured company... and so on.

 

The Chaos Space Marines are defined by the variety implied in being a force of Chaos. Anything goes, everything is fluffy, everything is perfectly viable as part of our vision of Chaos. To achieve this we do not need a "codex" book with a clear system like the SM one, but a modular book, defined by pages upon pages of upgrades for 2-5 points available to every unit entry. A book with a very strong focus on characters and with nine formations, one for each of the traitor legions, as a starter. 

[Kol Saresk]

For the most part I agree with you Tenebris, but I still disagree with the narrow view of focusing just on the Legions.

[Nehekhare]

shock army

 

I'd define that by prevalence of cheap drop pods, so not really

 

four different army mechanics (one for each Mark) and one generic (Undivided)

 

why not 5 generic (BL/WB/AL/NL/IW)?

 

Characters which are on par with elite characters from the other books.

 

we wish

 

we need a streamlining in costs and units

 

that was the idea behind the 4th ed codex

 

Obliterators/Mutilators should be an Elite option

 

give me that (back) and I'm happy

 

should be based upon upgrades

 

na, they tried that with the current dex and it really didn't work out that well because upgrades are ALWAYS overpriced.

 

A book with a very strong focus on characters and with nine formations, one for each of the traitor legions

 

I'd buy that.

[Lord Asvaldir]

 

 

Of course the whole "there are no Renegades players" might come from two twin facts: 1.)it is only recently GW has begun harping on the presence of Renegades and 2.)there are many Legion players who are unwilling to let there be room for anything other than the Legions.

 

Primary example. Look at how many people look at the Crimson Slaughter supplement as the Word Bearers supplement. Because they refuse to accept that there could be Renegades who have high levels of Possessed so obviously, anything with a list for a Possessed army must actually be a Word Bearers army.

 

Legions only this, Legions only that. It is a narrow view and it only serves to take one faction(Chaos Space Marines) and make it revolve around one specific subfaction(the Legions). It'd be like if Forgeworld started the Horus Heresy and then told everyone "we're not making Any armies beyond the four at Istvaan III. You're just going to have to make do. But don't worry, those for Legions have a ton of variety and there is still the rather well-endowed Great Crusade list."

 

That's what we're doing. Telling everyone to focus on one portion and anyone who has a standing that exists outside that portion just has to make do.

 

While complaining about GW doing the very same thing to us.

Well I mean I was referring to just if you took a poll of every CSM player, the majority would probably say their army represents a legion, but I do see your point.

 

For the crimson slaughter example, it may be true that some players feel that way about renegades, however I certainly don't and I'm a word bearers player. Never use crimson slaughter, probably won't anytime soon. I ca understand your argument though about the legion superiority complex, I'm sure it does exist even if I haven't see it that often, it's just not a problem for me because I don't have a renegade chapter army.

Maybe, but how biased would that poll be? Is it a poll of every single Chaos player worldwide, or just the BnC, which has a heavy Legion base?

 

 

 

 

BnC, it's very hard to gauge wide, general trends about armies when you're talking about the varied, diverse population of warhammer players, whereas when you just cut it down to people on the forums you are, for the most part considering just the more hard core players (either to the hobby or gaming aspect). That's of course a generalization, but a fair one I think since we wouldn't be spending our time on this forum if we were not really into the game. 

 

Back on topic, I don't think we necessarily need specific traits for each legion, but more of a "warp influence" that Tenebris mentioned is really needed. There's certainly a lot more daemonic engines that could be made and more warp influence oriented wargear/upgrade options we could have. And while I don't think this will ever happen, I really would like to see five marks-the fifth being chaos undivided. 

[Xenith]

Each time for some months now, that this discussion come up, someone says" Yeah, but there is no Legions anymore, they are scattered in warbands yadd ayadda yadda" yeah and?

This is what annpoys me. The Crimson Slaughter codex even states that the legions are still around, and that they are big.

 

The Crimson Slaughter go from less than half a chapter to greater than chapter size in a couple of hundred years. Even the fragmented legion warbands will have swollen to greater than chapter size by this point, and with several dozen or more warbands from each Legion, or so at least, the CSM should be able to fight in greater numbers than chapters.

[Lord Asvaldir]

Well of course the traitor legions are bigger than the renegade chapters, even Angorn with his fragmented legion led fifty thousand marines during the domain of fire. Even if they were not all World Eaters legion he still clearly has a substantial force and the more organized legions like the Black, Iron Warriors and Word Bearers are probably in the fifty-one hundred thousand strong range, far more than a renegade chapter. 

 

Even though just about every legion has a splinter renegade chapter (or several), that doesn't meant the original legion is not strong. 

[Wade Garrett]

"If you want to envision our ideal future, picture a Colchisian boot stomping on a Crimson Saber's face. Forever."

[Kol Saresk]

Well of course the traitor legions are bigger than the renegade chapters, even Angorn with his fragmented legion led fifty thousand marines during the domain of fire. Even if they were not all World Eaters legion he still clearly has a substantial force and the more organized legions like the Black, Iron Warriors and Word Bearers are probably in the fifty-one hundred thousand strong range, far more than a renegade chapter. 

 

Even though just about every legion has a splinter renegade chapter (or several), that doesn't meant the original legion is not strong.

It doesn't mean the original Legion is united either. Meanwhile you get the Crimson Slaughter, a Renegade Chapter with over 1,000 Astartes, not even counting their cultist followings. And they are united.

 

You get the Purge. The Cleaved. The Dragon Warriors. The Night Reapers. And on and on and on. Individually, those who hailing from a Legion might outnumber each individual faction. But if you were to compare the numbers of all the Legions combined to the numbers of all the Renegades combined, without counting the mortals, the Legions would be left in the dust. And if you compared the numbers of those who were Heresy vets with those who weren't, the disparity is even larger.

 

The Legions only make a portion of the Chaos Space Marines. As a subfaction, the Legion make a very decent sized portion. But they do not make up the entirety. The only time they did so was up until the First Black Crusade.

 

So yes, they are still a name. Yes, their combat doctrines and ideologies still persist. But they do not make up the totality of the Chaos Space Marines and we as a community should strive to be better than such a narrow view. What good is it if we tell GW they think too small if we in turn do not think large enough? We have a faction that numbers in the billions of billions. And you really just want to settle for nine types of variety? Come on, there isn't even that few in a city like Orlando, FL.

 

We can do better. We should do better. And we'd be selling ourselves out to settle for anything less.

[Lord Asvaldir]

Not saying those hundreds, perhaps thousands of renegade chapters/warbands should not exist, I agree with you they are a part of the chaos space marines faction and shouldn't be ignored.

However, I think you are incorrect in saying the renegade chapters leave the legions in the dust. Let's make a very broad generalization and say each legion had one hundred thousand marines at the start of the heresy-so that leaves you with nine hundred thousand chaos marines. Now of course a great many of those original marines are dead, but I still think there is no way the fifty-one hundred or so chapters that have turned renegade outnumber the legions. When you then consider break away chapters from the legions and individual marines that left their chapter, then maybe the numbers are more even, but there's no doubt that in the eye of the terror by far the most powerful forces are the traitor legions.

Now when you then consider HH veterans, yes there cannot be too many of them left, but one often not considered fact is that the chaos legions do replenish their numbers-otherwise by now they would be nearly extinct after one hundred centuries of constant fighting.

Also there is an important distinction between the chaos factions, and chaos space marines themselves, because the later numbers maybe a million individuals at most-and I'd guess less, though GW's lore is always a little shaky when it comes to exact numbers. Those billions are majority cultists and daemons which are not properly represented in our codex-though I'd be happy if they were.

And as far as doing better, I agree we could easily have a lot more variety, I just think our difference in opinion here is what matters most to use individually. I'm a word bearers player, it's word bearers lore and rules I want to see...the renegade chapters can die or join us. If I had a renegade chapter warband I'd feel differently of course.

[Kol Saresk]

And see, you just pointed out my primary problem with people wanting the Legion rules. They mostly don't care about those who play outside the Legions. Look at Wade Garret, Tenebris, Nehekhare and most of the others. I'm sure if Incinerator would actually write a post and leave it up, you'd also see that his opinion is solely concerned with the Legions. Now, some of those people like Tenebris and Dues Ex, I look up too, especially when it comes to their opinions and views on the fluff. But to me, their focus is too... small, too narrow. If they got to write the rules, we'd see fantastic Legion rules. And then everyone else would most likely be left in the dark. Because "the following wasn't big enough" or "Legions are the priority" or "Well the Legions were here first so you can join or die".

 

But if someone like Alan Bligh got the rules? Well, I'd be a happy camper. Because he wouldn't be satisfied until every feasible Chaos Space Marine army could be created. Including, Renegades. And I have a feeling, we still wouldn't see Legion rules. Not the way everyone wants to. Everyone Chaos loves Siege of Vraks. Did you know the Khorne rules were made to represent a Word Bearers and a World Eaters warbands? And that the Undivided represented a group of Renegade Ultramarines as well as an Alpha Legion warband? And that the Nurgle rules represented a Death Guard warband and a Renegade Chapter?

 

If done right, the rules could be used to represent both Renegades and Legions equally. Even among the Legions, there are those who are relatively untainted. The focus should be combining, not discriminating. Unity, not division. Chaos Undivided. Chaos Ascendant. Chaos Space Marines are one faction. The rules should reflect this. One faction that breaks down into several dozen, if not hundreds of, subfactions.

 

But like you said, you would be happy if you got your Legion rules. So would most of the others who posted here. I wouldn't be because I know there would be a fellow member of Chaos who would be left feeling like I and everyone here feels now: like they are ignored. Like the rulemakers don't care. And the most tragic part is, they'd feel like a good portion of the Chaos community doesn't care. And they'd be right.

[Lord Asvaldir]

All valid points, and I mean while yes traitor legions is always a priority to me I will say I missed how in our previous codex there was at least a reference to a wide variety of different chapters. We can all appreciate the different warbands even if it's not the one our army is focused on. 

 

I think if we just let Alan Bligh write all of the background for warhammer 40k, we'd all be happy. 

[Kol Saresk]

Possibly.

 

But ruleswise, would you say those Renegade Chapters got a better treatment than the Legions? As far as supplements go, we're one-one, unless you're Wade or Incinerator who say it is two-zero. Sure, the Renegades are getting more mention, but then again that is always the case. They were even mentioned in 3.5 and had painting guides. Even then, GW was trying to expand people beyond just the Legions. That's all GW has been trying to do, to show there is more out there. Now, I disagree with how they are handling it. But I agree with the spirit of the intent, even if I disagree with its execution.

 

I think most, or at least 50-75% of us want the same thing, we just have our own ways of putting the views out there. It's that 50-25% that is either anti-Legion or anti-Renegade that has me concerned.

[Wade Garrett]

Hmmm?

 

No, it's one-one. Yes, Horus was weak, Horus was a failure, yada yada yada...but the Black Legion is led by the First Captain of the XVl, they still use many of the battle strategies of the Luna Wolves/Sons of Horus, they still have the Justaerin Terminator elite....

 

Sorry fellows, I know you've put a lot of work into rebranding yourselves, and Abbadon loves to hang out with the new kids like Huron and Krannon to show how he's "totally down with the hep cats, not some square stuck in M31, ayyyyyyyyyyy!" but at the end of the day they're one of the nine old fuddy duddies, just like the Word Bearers or Night Lords.

[Lord Asvaldir]

Possibly.

 

But ruleswise, would you say those Renegade Chapters got a better treatment than the Legions? As far as supplements go, we're one-one, unless you're Wade or Incinerator who say it is two-zero. Sure, the Renegades are getting more mention, but then again that is always the case. They were even mentioned in 3.5 and had painting guides. Even then, GW was trying to expand people beyond just the Legions. That's all GW has been trying to do, to show there is more out there. Now, I disagree with how they are handling it. But I agree with the spirit of the intent, even if I disagree with its execution.

 

I think most, or at least 50-75% of us want the same thing, we just have our own ways of putting the views out there. It's that 50-25% that is either anti-Legion or anti-Renegade that has me concerned.

 

Alright, now I'm confused...earlier you were saying the renegades don't get enough attention, now you're saying it's at least one-one. I think we can all agree though more variety in general is just needed, the current codex really is just base CSM-the only variant and legion/renegade variation you can get is by taking/not taking certain units/wargear. 

[incinerator950]

I'm unusually surprised at the lack of a maulerfiend/Heldrake formation. The brute slate was to probably negate terrible sales but making fiends better, especially after 7th, us a no brainer.

[Slayer le Boucher]

@Kol Saresk, ueas it might seem that lot of people only focus on Legions and it might appear to be narrow, but don't forget that those same people focus on the Legions, solely, because its what they love and care the most for, their favorite Legion.

 

I will first care about World Eaters, because when i started to play in 3rd Ed, i was playing a World Eaters Legion force.

 

Its like reproching a guy that play UM or SW, to note care for the others chapters, tere isn't any point to it.

 

We don't say that Renegades should be left out and none existing, but they shouldn't be the main focus either, it should be Legions-> Renegades.

 

People care for the Legions because of their image, their "charisma" and History, now it doesn't mean, that Renegades are less important, i myself really liked to read the CS supp.

 

And also Renegades have importance in the Chaos faction, look at Red Corsairs for example.

 

The problem is that for now, it feels like you concentrate all your focus and might on the secondary roles or a movie or novel and then dead last the main role/character.

 

Its like a James Bond movie, but all you see for the 3 quarters of the movie is the bad guys, the bond girls a few no names and in the last 15mins of the movie you see Sir James making a cameo.

 

Thats not how it should be, its the same with Legions and Renegades right now.

 

Now you are right, its too early to really make assumptions, after all we only have 2 Supps, 1 Legion and 1 Renegade, but lately apart from FW and the IA 13 and the HH, we din't see many new things for Chaos.

 

I also would like to ask something, did GW abbandoned the idea of Dataslates?, at one point you had 2-3 dataslates each month for various things, and now those last few months, nothing, you only get the new dexs with hardly any new models and a Supp that follow the week after, no Dataslates to expand on or anything, i'm the only to find this weird?