Wade Garrett Posted October 17, 2014 Share Posted October 17, 2014 If I'm putting words in people's mouths, please correct me, but what I'm hearing from the other side sounds like this: "Either we get a Codex that supports dozens if not hundreds of viable builds to truly reflect the diversity of Chaos...OR WE GET NOTHING AT ALL!" Because the idea of gradual improvements, or "better off than we were before, at least"....why, that's utter nonsense. Our only options are the current situation where nobody is happy, and a platonic ideal where the Chaos Codex is a thing of such unholy perfection that it can not only support twenty unique lists, but it will also do sculpt and paint your minis for you, do your taxes, mow your yard, and walk your dog. And the mere idea of anything in between is madness! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tenebris Posted October 17, 2014 Share Posted October 17, 2014 Ok, lets all take a deep breath... done... ok. Now listen: The concept (and we speak in technical terms rulewise/gamewise) of a "renegade" chapter/warband was introduced to allow the CSM players to enjoy the DIY aspect of the hobby. Said that, the CSM specific is that playing a "legion" warband is still very much a DIY for we have in fact very little clearly defined warbands in the Chaos lore. So here is where the crux of our codex lies. If we compare to the loyalist (though I loathe to do that) is that they have the nine SM chapters former legions, and the rest is DIY, or simply little more than an "official" color scheme. The actual difference is that for example the Ultramatrines have a named Chapter Master, Captains, Characters... and so on. When you play 2nd company you play Cato Sicarius... I hope you get my point. This is a thing which is utterly alien to the CSM faction. We have the iconic archtraitors and this is it. Kol probably misunderstood me, I am from the faction "legions are dead all hail the warbands, all hail the Warmaster" and this is my statement. To me the greatest appeal of the CSM is freedom, because my sorcerer, my alter-ego actually choose to turn the back to his legion, because he choose to be free from any masters imposed on him by blood, by tradition. It is this freedom that I find galvanizing and which actually made me to fall in love with the CSM faction. In terms of gameplay, of strictly rules talk, the entirety of the Chaos factions is a big sandbox, our default status is DIY in a very literal term. Do It Yourself. We have no structure, we have no set line of thought or modus operandi, we have not a codex formation and neither we have something tangible bar the color scheme which would portray us as a player of x faction/legion/warband. Of all the 40k armies the Chaos factions are defined by this very concept of tabula rasa, the traitor legions are a backgroud, a background which denies or cannibalizes itself. So the legions are dead, the legion warbands are the thing, the chaos warbands the norm. So we can all understand why no matter how many legion traits give us, or army wide rules, or random tables or upgrade charts, Chaos is defined by its variety and it is a very hard thing to make a "workable codex" which would do justice to the faction we all love and play. My humble opinion is that the CSM should be structured in the following way: Bland, generic army entries Myriad of upgrades which provide USR Army wide rule for champions Army wide rule for each of the chaos gods Doctrines So for example: Chaos Space Marine (low cost, cheap, basic wargear) + Infiltrate + Shrouded in the first turn + Alpha Legion doctrine (a simple army wide rule (exmp. reroll on reserves, or no deviation when arrives from reserves) + Champion of Chaos if Character + Mark of Khorne (again another army wide rule for units marked with MoK, not just a flat stat increase) + Wargear The result would be an Alpha Legion marine whose warband is knee deep in Khorne worship and who is especially trained in the way of his legion/warband (buyable USR) and who if he is a Character has a special Champion of Chaos rule which allows him to outclass in a duel the enemy characters. This would indeed ramp up the cost of the basic CSM in question but first it will effectively play to the strengths of an elite and focused army which uses shock tactics and second it will allow the player to represent his DIY Alpha Legion warband in the way he imagines in his fluff. Sure, this makes for a complex system of army building, especially if you add Warlord Traits, Detachments, Formations... but in the end for a premium price you would have a model which plays as in fluff, which plays to the strength of our faction and incites the player to be creative. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Asvaldir Posted October 17, 2014 Share Posted October 17, 2014 I think most of us would be happy to have such a system. It doesn't even need to be each doctrine is named after a specific legion/warband, just a list you can use either to form a specific, known legion/warband or your own entirely new renegade chapter, giving you the DIY aspect. IG had such a system two codexes back, was very cool, I'd love to see something like that for chaos though I doubt it will happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gree Posted October 17, 2014 Share Posted October 17, 2014 Yeah, I don't really think that the Legion Traits even be necessarily Legion-Specific. You can rename them ''Shadow Stalkers'' or Siege Specialists'' or whatever to represent a certain type of archetype for a Chaos warband. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daveNYC Posted October 17, 2014 Share Posted October 17, 2014 You wouldn't have to, but names like "Legacy of Iron" or "Legacy of Prospero" would be nice nods. Just handwave things by saying units with that trait were inspired by or studied under members of the referenced legions. Just say that the nine traitor legions are such archetypes that they are used in reference to anyone or group that strongly exhibits their primary trait(s). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
plasmaspam Posted October 17, 2014 Share Posted October 17, 2014 You wouldn't have to, but names like "Legacy of Iron" or "Legacy of Prospero" would be nice nods. Just handwave things by saying units with that trait were inspired by or studied under members of the referenced legions. Just say that the nine traitor legions are such archetypes that they are used in reference to anyone or group that strongly exhibits their primary trait(s). Which ironically would bring us full circle to the current loyalist mechanic where you can be like the Raven Guard without being the Raven Guard. I've honestly lost track of what people are disagreeing on in this thread now! The concensus seems to be Legions and Renegades deserve to exist side by side. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Noctem Cultor Posted October 17, 2014 Author Share Posted October 17, 2014 I've honestly lost track of what people are disagreeing on in this thread now! The concensus seems to be Legions and Renegades deserve to exist side by side. It has got that way, I created a Monster with this one but the old my Army's Codex should be was a can of worms. CANT LEGIONS AND RENEGADES JUST GET ALONG AND BRING DOWN THE IMPERIUM TOGETHER? No? Oh okay we can continue to argue and get nowhere Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slayer le Boucher Posted October 17, 2014 Share Posted October 17, 2014 So we can all understand why no matter how many legion traits give us, or army wide rules, or random tables or upgrade charts, Chaos is defined by its variety and it is a very hard thing to make a "workable codex" which would do justice to the faction we all love and play. My humble opinion is that the CSM should be structured in the following way: Bland, generic army entries Myriad of upgrades which provide USR Army wide rule for champions Army wide rule for each of the chaos gods Doctrines So for example: Chaos Space Marine (low cost, cheap, basic wargear) + Infiltrate + Shrouded in the first turn + Alpha Legion doctrine (a simple army wide rule (exmp. reroll on reserves, or no deviation when arrives from reserves) + Champion of Chaos if Character + Mark of Khorne (again another army wide rule for units marked with MoK, not just a flat stat increase) + Wargear You know that its basically the 3.5Ed dex you are describing? And also i agree, there should be enough to support Legions Veterans and Renegades of all sorts and that what we are lacking now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bat33.1 Posted October 17, 2014 Share Posted October 17, 2014 I think it's silly that newly converted renegades automatically lose their fancy equipment for turning, or how nobody knows how to capture and reverse engineer things. This explains everything http://1d4chan.org/wiki/Dude,_Where%27s_my_Land_Speeder%3F Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slave to Darkness Posted October 18, 2014 Share Posted October 18, 2014 So the Legions are dead... Fractured into smaller warbands etc... ok. Imperial Fists legion, splits into Imperial Fists, Crimson Fists and Black Templars, different ways of playing, three in total if you count the stupid Fists supplement. C'mon, give us something to work with... Give us separate codex books for the original legions, or at least Khorne, Slaanesh, Nurgle and Tzeentch books. Marines got how many codex books? Even if its something like giving Iron Warriors the same rules as the Imperial Fists, Night Lords as Raven Guard... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
incinerator950 Posted October 18, 2014 Share Posted October 18, 2014 Next GW is going to make a codex for Squats and genestealer cults, leave it as a pdf for 24 hrs on April fools day, then take it down the next day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slave to Darkness Posted October 18, 2014 Share Posted October 18, 2014 that would be amazing lol... or a squat genestealer cult. so its not quite what you want but WERE GW SO :cuss YOU!!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emperors Immortals Posted October 18, 2014 Share Posted October 18, 2014 Then they can make it free for every £1000 spent on books and wonder peeps torrent the bolters off it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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