Chariot retains IC status?

[JeffJedi]

My opponent claims that his Necron Chariot retains Independent Character Status and can join units. He also believes that Look Out Sir tests can be made. Surely this is not correct.

 

Can a Necron Overlord on Chariot get look out sir from a Scarab Swarm? He can already choose to take small arms fire on the vehicle's armor and tank Lascannon hits with his high toughness Overlord with Inv save.

 

If not he must stay a character in order to fight challenges, right?

[librisrouge]

I don't have my book on me but I believe the counter argument is that he's also a vehicle and thus cannot join units.

[Kristoff]

I don't have my book on me but I believe the counter argument is that he's also a vehicle and thus cannot join units.

 

It's the other way around, IC's cannot join Vehicle units.

 

My opponent claims that his Necron Chariot retains Independent Character Status and can join units. He also believes that Look Out Sir tests can be made. Surely this is not correct.

 

Can a Necron Overlord on Chariot get look out sir from a Scarab Swarm? He can already choose to take small arms fire on the vehicle's armor and tank Lascannon hits with his high toughness Overlord with Inv save.

 

If not he must stay a character in order to fight challenges, right?

For all the other Chariots, they either have rules eliminating that rule, or have been FAQ'd for the IC to loose that rule, but the Necrons have not had that done. The rules for Chariots, in and of themselves, do not state that the Rider loses his IC USR nor that he is classed as in a Transport (which prevented before), but that they are one single model. There are some who even argue that the Invul Save the Lord can get can be used against successful Hits against the Chariot, too.

 

He does remain a (Character), though, and can be Challenged, but he may divert some of your Attacks against his Chariot if they do not have a high chance of Glancing or Penetrating it.

[Axagoras]

a chariot can join units because of super poor wording on gw part but tournaments disallow it so if someone if playing a casual game like that dont play them. They are the problem with 40k

[brother_contagion]

The IC essentially becomes a vehicle, imo, but retains the IC ability to attack and be attacked in CC and accept challenges, apart from that he's a vehicle, and vehicles aren't ICs.

[Kristoff]

The IC essentially becomes a vehicle, imo, but retains the IC ability to attack and be attacked in CC and accept challenges, apart from that he's a vehicle, and vehicles aren't ICs.

This one is, apparently. There is no rule you can reference that substantiates your assertion. Just because one hasn't been before, doesn't mean one cannot. Neither the rules for Chariots, Vehicles in general, or Independent Characters state that they cannot be Vehicles, they just cannot JOIN Vehicles.

 

But for sportsmanship, a Necron player SHOULD treat it as if it had lost it. There is sufficient precedence to suggest this is intended as seen by the Daemons FAQ and Space Wolf codcies.

 

Edit: I should also add that the IC USR does not give the ability to be Challenged or attacked in CC. To be Challenged requires being a (Character) unit type (which admittedly, all IC possessors are, so far), and ANYTHING on the board that isn't Swooping or Zooming can be attacked in CC.

[Seahawk]

Your opponent is correct. By rawest RAW, an Overlord on a command barge is both a vehicle and IC, and because of a lack of oversight by GW, this allows him to join a non-vehicle unit.

[brother_contagion]

 

The IC essentially becomes a vehicle, imo, but retains the IC ability to attack and be attacked in CC and accept challenges, apart from that he's a vehicle, and vehicles aren't ICs.

This one is, apparently. There is no rule you can reference that substantiates your assertion. Just because one hasn't been before, doesn't mean one cannot. Neither the rules for Chariots, Vehicles in general, or Independent Characters state that they cannot be Vehicles, they just cannot JOIN Vehicles.

 

But for sportsmanship, a Necron player SHOULD treat it as if it had lost it. There is sufficient precedence to suggest this is intended as seen by the Daemons FAQ and Space Wolf codcies.

 

Edit: I should also add that the IC USR does not give the ability to be Challenged or attacked in CC. To be Challenged requires being a (Character) unit type (which admittedly, all IC possessors are, so far), and ANYTHING on the board that isn't Swooping or Zooming can be attacked in CC.

 

 

I was simply stating my opinion.

 

Although, I did read the Demon and Necron Codex errata and even though the Demon Codex specifically states "Replace 'TRANSPORT CAPACITY: 1 (X Herald)' with 'RIDER: X Herald'" and "the Herald becomes the chariot's rider and loses the IC special rule", the Necron errata states something very similar, "Replace 'Transport Capacity: The Catacomb Command Barge can carry one independent character' with 'Rider: Necron Overlord'". Which leads to the chariot rules. They're vehicles that transport the character/rider, and it states, "A character mounted on a Chariot is referred to as the rider. A rider cannot disembark from his Chariot". Under the transport section and Independent Character section it's understood that for the IC to join a unit he must disembark from the transport (if he's the only unit in the transport), but the IC cannot disembark from the chariot. So I'd say that based on the chariot actually transporting the IC and the nature of him unable to disembark (since it specifically states that), the Overlord wouldn't be an exception.

 

Also, because of the wording of the errata,  "Replace 'Transport Capacity: The Catacomb Command Barge can carry one independent character' with 'Rider: Necron Overlord'" the Necron Overlord's unit type gets replaced with "Rider", which is simply the second profile of the Chariot Vehicle type. I mean, they even changed "carry one independent character" to "Rider", so because the Rider is also the Chariot type, I'd say they changed it but not as clearly as they thought they did. I think this answer is the simplest and clearest answer, despite GW not stating it so plainly like they did in Demon Codex errata.

 

EDIT: So basically I'm saying that the vehicle and character retain their types/special rules, respectively, but a IC cannot join other units because it would require him to disembark from his transport/chariot and the rules state that the Rider cannot disembark, therefore the ability to join units is nullified.

[Kristoff]

I was simply stating my opinion.

And the opinion wasn't was I was really addressing. It was some of the things you were saying like they were facts that I was addressing.

 

But as to the errors, the First part:

...but retains the IC ability to attack and be attacked in CC and accept challenges...

To which I answered:

I should also add that the IC USR does not give the ability to be Challenged or attacked in CC. To be Challenged requires being a (Character) unit type (which admittedly, all IC possessors are, so far), and ANYTHING on the board that isn't Swooping or Zooming can be attacked in CC.

If you meant that a TRANSPORTED IC has the capacity to do that, it wasn't very clear.

 

The second part:

...vehicles aren't ICs.

To which I answered:

This one is, apparently. There is no rule you can reference that substantiates your assertion. Just because one hasn't been before, doesn't mean one cannot. Neither the rules for Chariots, Vehicles in general, or Independent Characters state that they cannot be Vehicles, they just cannot JOIN Vehicles.

For the rest, if you look at it, I was actually suggesting that it be played as you said.

 

The Overlord does not lose his Independent Character USR or its effects when on a Command Barge, and is the only known Rider to do so.

 

Chariots are not considered Transports any more, and both Rider and Chariot are considered one model. The Overlord does not actually take one as a Dedicated Transport any more, but instead just takes it.

Page 89 - Necron Overlord

Add the following to the list of options:

'May take a Catacomb Command Barge (the Necron Overlord becomes the Chariot's rider, see page 91).'

Oddly enough, even though it is not officially a Transport, it does carry Transport type qualities when introduced on its unit listing, and the Rider is specifically noted as being unable to disembark.

 

It may be technically legal from most perspectives, but there is sufficient precedence against it, and it is poor sportsmanship.

 

For precedence the Daemons FAQ has three entries that combined read as followed:

Add a final line to the Herald of Khorne's/Tzeentch's/Slaanesh's options:

'If a Herald of Khorne/Tzeentch/Slaanesh takes a Blood Throne of Khorne/Burning Chariot of Tzeentch/Seeker Chariot or Exalted Seeker Chariot upgrade, the Herald becomes the chariot's rider and loses the Independent Character special rule.'

The new Space Wolves codex has for Logan Grimnar's Chariot:

...When riding Stormrider, Logan Grimnar loses the Deep Strike special rule (which is conferred from his Terminator armour), can no longer join other units, or be joined by any other Independent Character...

So, on one hand, we have precedence that the Character Riders should lose any benefit from being Independent Character, BUT we also have the precedence that it must specifically be specifically stated in order to do so.

 

Honestly, I do believe that either they believed the next Necron codex was near enough to launch it wasn't needed to be FAQ'd, OR they just simply forgot to put it in at all.