Mathhammer: Paladin v GKT Analysis

[Gentlemanloser]

How do these two units match up against each other?

 

I'll look at 5 Paladin with 2 Psycannons and an Apothecary (340 points) compared to 10 GKT with 2 Psycannons (370 points).

 

The GKT are around 8% more expensive.

 

How do they match up offensively?

 

Paladin;

4 Storm Bolter shots, 8 Psycannon Shots

10 CC Attacks / 15 on the Charge

 

GK Terminators;

16 Storm Bolter shots, 8 Psycannons Shots

20 CC Attacks / 30 on the Charge

 

So for your ~8% increase in cost, you gain x4 Storm Bolter shots and x2 CC attacks.

 

But GL, the Paladin are more durable.

 

Are they?

 

When facing S3 to S7 attacks, the Paladin have FnP so are 33% more durable than the GKT.  Facing S8 to S10 however they lose not only FnP, but effectively have 50% less wounds than the GKT, due to Instant Death.

 

5/8 attacks favour the Paladin (at 1.3 durability), 3/8 see them at a disadvantage (at 0.5 durability).

 

Which happens to equal out nicely.

 

Making Paladin with FnP, overall, just as durable as GKT.

 

The Paladin do have a little advantage though.  Any AP1 or AP2 S3-S7 attacks favour the Paladin over the GKT (Edit: Plasma Weapons are the highlight here. S7/AP2).

 

So, the GKT suffer only a *slight* loss of durability over Paladin, but for an 8% increase in cost, give you two to 4 times more offensive punch.

 

While filling mandatory FoC slots.

 

With our current GKT, there is little to no reason (you might want to pass FnP on to an attached IC) to ever choose Paladin.

 

Our GKT are just that much offensively better!

[Zembar]

For completeness, you should probably add in the effects of WS5 vs WS4 as well. Banners maybe?

 

Edit: Also, combat squadding the Termies gives you a bit more survivability and an extra warp charge as well.

[Gentlemanloser]

Totally. Ws will have to wait till I get home and have some time. But in general it wont give the pallies enough to make up for gkt having twice the attacks.

 

Combat squads is a very valid bonus as well.

[THE PORTCULLIS]

Interesting article I do not have the time to give justice too. But, for me the who appeal of Paladins is for the apothecary making them tough as hell.

 

Now to get best use out of the acothecary you want to max the squad.

 

But if you max the squad of Paladins you'll defn want 4 Psycannons, and then you'll need best cc weps - now your talking mega points!

 

Its going to be GKT all the way but if you want a tough to shift D. Star you'll want paladins unless facing str8 ap2 or better (which is more common than it should be).

[Rurik the blessed]

Nice post...

Paladins are Amazing,

 

I Faced a group of 5 with apothecary against a GI tank (I think is called Executioner), who had 5 Plasma cannons.

I drop it by rites of teleportation into his face.

 

In the first round of shooting he didn't kill me a single Paladin,

in the next rounds he just managed to kill me just ONE paladin.

 

S i could say, that paladins are better than GKT, no matter the number of attacks, you will always face a unit of few enemies, Paladins has the strength enough to kill them all.

[raverrn]

Paladins granting FnP to attached characters is a pretty huge advantage for a bodyguard unit. There's also the significantly smaller footprint - GKT simply can't Deep Strike some places Paladins can, and with hitting rear armor being as vital as it is you need that capability. Also relatively fewer hits from template and blast weapons, less susceptibility to dangerous terrain tests, and there's also the capability to take wounds - each failed GKT save reduces your damage output, whereas Paladins can take one or more and not lose anything.

 

Basically mathhammer is nice, but probably can't be relied on to make sweeping statements like you want to do.

[Gentlemanloser]

It depends on if you are unable to get fnp anywhere else.

 

Also the foot print and blast issues are easily solved by combat squads.

 

Paladin don't lose attacks for each wound lost. But gkt have more attacks anyway. Suffer 6 wounds each. The Paladin have no sb shots left. The gkt still have 4.

[Gentlemanloser]

WS5.

 

This gives (in most reasonable cases) the Paladin an extra 1/6th chance of landing a hit over GKT.  If you want to include the absolute best case scenario, and add in opponents that have WS9 and WS10, Paladin across WS ranges have a 50% better chance of hitting than GKT due to their Increased WS.

 

Even at this best case scenario, a 50% increase in chance to hit does not equate to twice the attacks the GKT have.

 

Most often, this will only be in play facing WS4, and the Paladin will have 1/6 greater chance to hit.

 

GKT still win on CC attacks.

[raverrn]

GKT still win on CC attacks.

 

...if you didn't combat squad them to mitigate footprint or deepstrike issues.

 

This just isn't an issue you can math out and declare a closed case. There are upsides and downsides to both choices.

[Gentlemanloser]

??

 

Combat Squads has zero impact on the total number of CC attacks.

[raverrn]

??

 

Combat Squads has zero impact on the total number of CC attacks.

It does when only half of your squad is engaged in melee.

 

It also makes buffing significantly tougher - only one Prescience to go around, casting one Hammerhand as opposed to two...

[Gentlemanloser]

Why on earth would the analysis only have half the models in question in combat?

 

/sigh

 

I give up.

[raverrn]

I honestly don't know if you're being sarcastic.

 

I...I can't tell.

 

That's how silly what you just said is.

[THE PORTCULLIS]

Having one half of a combat squadded GKT unit in CC will not reduce the overall potential impact for CC for the entire unit.

 

Situations aside the potential for two squads of 5 or one squad of 10 will always be the same. Its just a nice feature that you can Combat Squad, an edge over the Paladins.

[raverrn]

Having one half of a combat squadded GKT unit in CC will not reduce the overall potential impact for CC for the entire unit.

 

Situations aside the potential for two squads of 5 or one squad of 10 will always be the same. Its just a nice feature that you can Combat Squad, an edge over the Paladins.

 

Yes it does? If you're charged, say the turn after deep striking when you're caught more-or-less in the open, you've lost a significant amount of combat effectiveness.

[THE PORTCULLIS]

 

 

Having one half of a combat squadded GKT unit in CC will not reduce the overall potential impact for CC for the entire unit.

 

Situations aside the potential for two squads of 5 or one squad of 10 will always be the same. Its just a nice feature that you can Combat Squad, an edge over the Paladins.

Yes it does? If you're charged, say the turn after deep striking when you're caught more-or-less in the open, you've lost a significant amount of combat effectiveness.

Again, you are discussing a situation. Math hammer is purely a stat based exercise where the possibility for anecdotal situations are not regarded.

 

The possibilities pertaining to Combat Squadding are manifold and defy comprehensive analysis. All you can really say is that having the option to combat squad must be better than not being able to. Having that tactical edge must be a plus. From that the number of attacks you'd have in a certain situation is immaterial, the full potential for the squad would be the same.

[Brom MKIV]

It is interesting to note that FNP paladins will take identical wounds from melta as GKTs do from plas (counting x2 for ID).

 

I am also a believer that footprint matters btw. I either want something massive to control board space (RIP beast star) or something compact for deep strike. 

 

Either way Paladins are underwhelming but even in their current state I think they would be ok if the meta were different. S8 everywhere really hurts their viability.

I was having a discussion recently on units of multi wound models and IMO the problem is universal. Too much S8-9 in the game atm. If you aren't T5+ its very risky (or dirt cheap like manz). 

 

Vs. daemons however paladins outshine GKTs, in terms of durability at least.

[SonofTitan117]

It is very relative, but for me at least I completely agree with GL in that, for the vast majority of situations which math hammer is intended to quantify, GKT are the best option. There are those situations, as was also shown from the math, that Paladins outshine the GKT, and it is up to the player to determine which situation to use what unit in. Unless you are in a tournament situation you can choose what unit to field, and in a tournament the logic that GKT are more viable against the greater number of opponents would preside. 

[Captain Coolpants]

I'd prefer using regular terminators.

I always combat squad, so combat squaded terminators have :

 

*double warp charges

 

*double the chance of coming in from reserves when you want them

 

*double storm bolter shots

 

*double overall attacks

 

*your opponent has to split his fire, this also helps for combat, you can only 'effectively' assault what you shot at.

 

*it's just tactically better, it's far better to have numerous small squads around the board than 1 big target.

 

Obviously, simply stat wise, paladins are better, but actual game play wise, terminators outshine them.

 

I'd only ever recommend using paladins if you know your opponent is using another marine army, due to Marines lacking big nasty double toughness templates, plus the extra weapons skill helps, because in my opinion, Marines fighting Marines takes waaaay too long as most attacks end up missing.

[Gentlemanloser]

Next thing to look at, would be adding a Banner to the Paladin.  The Paladin have the points spare to afford one.

 

Without looking at anything, gut reaction feels that a Banner, combined with WS5 across the whole range of opponent WS (including 9 and 10...) would yield a comparable number of CC attacks to a 10 man GKT squad.

 

So for equal points the GKT only really have the follow over Paladin;

 

Combat Squads

4 times the number of Storm Bolter shots

Troop Battlefield Role

[Zembar]

So for equal points the GKT only really have the follow over Paladin;

 

Combat Squads

4 times the number of Storm Bolter shots

Troop Battlefield Role

 

All right, but apart from tactical flexibility, firepower and objective secured(in a CAD), what have the romans terminators ever done for us?

[Gentlemanloser]

He's *not* the messiah Supreme Grand Master.  He's just a very naughty boy!

 

;)

[Quozzo]

 

Having one half of a combat squadded GKT unit in CC will not reduce the overall potential impact for CC for the entire unit.

 

Situations aside the potential for two squads of 5 or one squad of 10 will always be the same. Its just a nice feature that you can Combat Squad, an edge over the Paladins.

 

Yes it does? If you're charged, say the turn after deep striking when you're caught more-or-less in the open, you've lost a significant amount of combat effectiveness.

 

Only for that particular combat squad, the other combat could charge the turn after allowing them to retain their extra attacks or if the enemy chose to assault two units then the enemy lost their extra attacks. Either way, combat squadding a unit doesn't reduce the whole units attacks by half.

 

Playing devils advocate. If the paladins are weaker in CC than the terminators by not having the numbers, then why not increase the odds by spending some of those points you neglected to spend. The 30 points difference could get a few halberds, falchions or even hammers to bring the Pallys up to par with the GKT.

[Gentlemanloser]

 

 

Playing devils advocate. If the paladins are weaker in CC than the terminators by not having the numbers, then why not increase the odds by spending some of those points you neglected to spend. The 30 points difference could get a few halberds, falchions or even hammers to bring the Pallys up to par with the GKT.          

 

Spent them on a banner. ;)

[Quozzo]

Playing devils advocate. If the paladins are weaker in CC than the terminators by not having the numbers, then why not increase the odds by spending some of those points you neglected to spend. The 30 points difference could get a few halberds, falchions or even hammers to bring the Pallys up to par with the GKT.

Spent them on a banner.

Let's pray to the Emperor that he doesn't get sniped!