Captain Coolpants Posted October 18, 2014 Share Posted October 18, 2014 I've sometimes been a little torn when deciding what powers to use in different situations. Like, I'd be in combat with some nurgle Marines. I usually cast hammerhand, but my mate passes his FnP an unholy amount of times. So I was wondering if I'd be better off activating force? I've never even attempted mathhammer, so was hoping someone could calculate the differences with the following. To activate hammerhand or force against * a toughness 4 unit with Fnp * toughness 5 with FnP * or against a unit of daemons of toughness 5 or more (because daemonbane is obviously more effective on average/lower toughness) Thankies! :) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/298119-force-or-hammerhand-which-would-you-use/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
raverrn Posted October 18, 2014 Share Posted October 18, 2014 All of these are going to assume hitting on 4+ T4 3+ & FnP: Sword - 16% chance to kill Sword, Hammerhand - 27% Sword, Force - 25% Halberd - 21% Halberd, Hammerhand - 27% Halberd, Force - 33% Staff - 12% Hammer - 41% T5 3+ & FnP: Sword - 10% chance to kill Sword, Hammerhand - 21% Sword, Force - 16% Halberd - 16% Halberd, Hammerhand - 27% Halberd, Force - 25% Staff - 7% Staff, Hammerhand - 9% Staff, Force - 10% Hammer - 27% Hammer, Hammerhand or Force - 41% T5 Daemons 5++: Sword - 14% chance to kill Sword, Hammerhand - 29% chance to kill Sword, Force - 18% Halberd - 22% Halberd, Hammerhand - 37% Halberd, Force - 28% Staff - 29% Staff, Hammerhand - 37% Staff, Force - 33% Hammer - 37% ((Basically Hammerhand is awesome)) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/298119-force-or-hammerhand-which-would-you-use/#findComment-3837212 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quozzo Posted October 18, 2014 Share Posted October 18, 2014 I made a whatsit in my sig so you can do all this at your own leisure... I don't know the link myself but it's there (I hope) I should stress the x/6 is there should your roll require anything but a D6, in most cases treat the /6 as a + so to hit would be 3/6 (3+) etc. A 1/6 always hits. EDIT: I've actually changed it, took me longer to find where it was hosted than to change it xD Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/298119-force-or-hammerhand-which-would-you-use/#findComment-3837244 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Coolpants Posted October 18, 2014 Author Share Posted October 18, 2014 All of these are going to assume hitting on 4+ T4 3+ & FnP: Sword - 16% chance to kill Sword, Hammerhand - 27% Sword, Force - 25% Halberd - 21% Halberd, Hammerhand - 27% Halberd, Force - 33% Staff - 12% Hammer - 41% T5 3+ & FnP: Sword - 10% chance to kill Sword, Hammerhand - 21% Sword, Force - 16% Halberd - 16% Halberd, Hammerhand - 27% Halberd, Force - 25% Staff - 7% Staff, Hammerhand - 9% Staff, Force - 10% Hammer - 27% Hammer, Hammerhand or Force - 41% T5 Daemons 5++: Sword - 14% chance to kill Sword, Hammerhand - 29% chance to kill Sword, Force - 18% Halberd - 22% Halberd, Hammerhand - 37% Halberd, Force - 28% Staff - 29% Staff, Hammerhand - 37% Staff, Force - 33% Hammer - 37% ((Basically Hammerhand is awesome)) Well thanks! I would have thought against daemons, that force (which activates daemonbane) would have been better than hammerhand for sure! Also seems that force helberds are better than swords with hammerhand! Maybe I should use them more :-P Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/298119-force-or-hammerhand-which-would-you-use/#findComment-3837419 Share on other sites More sharing options...
raverrn Posted October 18, 2014 Share Posted October 18, 2014 Daemonbane comes into it's own when you're fighting vehicles and tougher targets. Against T4 & T5 it's overshadowed by having Preferred Enemy. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/298119-force-or-hammerhand-which-would-you-use/#findComment-3837464 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reclusiarch Darius Posted October 19, 2014 Share Posted October 19, 2014 Preferably cast both of course, it'll draw dispel away from more important spells ;) Ignoring FNP is pretty important, I'd prioritise that over 'Hammerhand' if you have to choose. But I'd cast 'Hammerhand' first just to draw dispel away from your 'Force' attempt, as you may only get one shot at it (unless you have a Knight character attached). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/298119-force-or-hammerhand-which-would-you-use/#findComment-3837678 Share on other sites More sharing options...
IndigoJack Posted October 19, 2014 Share Posted October 19, 2014 If you have a GK attached you still only get one chance as a unit can only cast one instance of a psychic power per phase. As the attached IC and the unit of GKs because one unit, together they can only cast force once. (edited to add references to the rule book) "To manifest a psychic power, you will first need to select on of your psyker units. It does not matter if the selected unit has Gone to Ground. Then, select a psychic power known to the selected unit that the unit has not already attempted to manifest in the psychic phase." BRB, p. 24 "When an Independent Character joins a unit, he counts as part of the unit for all rules purposes, though he still follows the rules for characters." BRB, p. 166 Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/298119-force-or-hammerhand-which-would-you-use/#findComment-3837700 Share on other sites More sharing options...
raverrn Posted October 19, 2014 Share Posted October 19, 2014 Preferably cast both of course, it'll draw dispel away from more important spells Ignoring FNP is pretty important, I'd prioritise that over 'Hammerhand' if you have to choose. But I'd cast 'Hammerhand' first just to draw dispel away from your 'Force' attempt, as you may only get one shot at it (unless you have a Knight character attached). This just isn't right, mathematically speaking. The way combat resolves in 40k bonuses to a particular step are worth more than a similar bonus on a later step - a +1 to hit is more valuable than a +1 to wound, for instance. There are exceptions, of course - if you're already wounding on a 2+ then a bonus to wound isn't going to do much good (but a re-roll would!). There are, of course, outliers - check out Halberds against T4 infantry - but the majority of the time Hammerhand is going to land you more wounds than Force. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/298119-force-or-hammerhand-which-would-you-use/#findComment-3837780 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reclusiarch Darius Posted October 19, 2014 Share Posted October 19, 2014 This just isn't right, mathematically speaking. The way combat resolves in 40k bonuses to a particular step are worth more than a similar bonus on a later step - a +1 to hit is more valuable than a +1 to wound, for instance. There are exceptions, of course - if you're already wounding on a 2+ then a bonus to wound isn't going to do much good (but a re-roll would!). There are, of course, outliers - check out Halberds against T4 infantry - but the majority of the time Hammerhand is going to land you more wounds than Force. I'm speaking from experience on this matter. FNP is one of the most annoying rules in the game, it has saved my opponents from what should've been a curb stomp many times. There is nothing more irritating than watching your successful hits translate into almost no casualties. FNP is especially powerful in 6th and 7th, due to AP2 no longer ignoring it automatically. This is especially relevant at range, as psycannon Rends, lascannon, melta etc no longer denying FNP on its own (you need to be double their Toughness etc). Having said all that, choosing which power to cast is a very situational choice. 'Hammerhand' and 'Force' are both game-changing buffs to melee, and its a combo largely unique to our faction (no one else can cast Sanctic as easily, or get access to 'Hammerhand' and 'Force' on the same unit as reliably). I'd say denying FNP is important, but you should use your judgement. If you're talking about combat against a single model (say an MC), 'Force' might be more clutch as you just need one failed save to nuke your enemy. On the other hand, you might be in combat with Plaguebearers after charging with say Termies or Purifiers, who output a lot of attacks. In that scenario, 'Hammerhand' is potentially better. I would also point out that this whole choice is really made extra difficult by the fact that all powers have to be cast in a single phase now. You have to commit to your choices before you even complete a successful charge. tl;dr try to cast both, but if you have to choose (due to lack of charge, or potentially enemy dispel), choose according to which will help you more Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/298119-force-or-hammerhand-which-would-you-use/#findComment-3837833 Share on other sites More sharing options...
SonofTitan117 Posted October 19, 2014 Share Posted October 19, 2014 This^ Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/298119-force-or-hammerhand-which-would-you-use/#findComment-3838101 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted October 19, 2014 Share Posted October 19, 2014 I'm speaking from experience on this matter. Pfft. Mathhammer > your experience! If you're not facing either a higher than usual FnP, or the ability to ID a multiwound mini, then Hammerhand is better. (And the percentages given above are just off, by 1% due to rounding. Sword + Hammerhand is 28%) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/298119-force-or-hammerhand-which-would-you-use/#findComment-3838160 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reclusiarch Darius Posted October 20, 2014 Share Posted October 20, 2014 Pfft. Mathhammer > your experience! If you're not facing either a higher than usual FnP, or the ability to ID a multiwound mini, then Hammerhand is better. (And the percentages given above are just off, by 1% due to rounding. Sword + Hammerhand is 28%) Haha. I'm actually in agreement with you on that front, 'Force' can be underwhelming against 1-wound opponents as its main benefit is insta-gib, not denying FNP. I'd just re-iterate that cast both if you can, but prioritise according to which is more useful. It's rare we run out of charge before we run out of powers in my experience. There are also generally more worrying spells we can have ('Invis', 'Gate', 'Prescience' etc) which will probably attract dispel over melee buffs. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/298119-force-or-hammerhand-which-would-you-use/#findComment-3838558 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brom MKIV Posted October 20, 2014 Share Posted October 20, 2014 And then there's hot dice you gotta consider.. Looking at you ork players! seriously there's certain opponents I know that I just don't want them touching dice, especially if it's invuln followed by fnp. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/298119-force-or-hammerhand-which-would-you-use/#findComment-3838575 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reclusiarch Darius Posted October 20, 2014 Share Posted October 20, 2014 And then there's hot dice you gotta consider.. Looking at you ork players! seriously there's certain opponents I know that I just don't want them touching dice, especially if it's invuln followed by fnp. Yeah Cyberorks with a Painboy are immensely irritating to get rid of. It's one of the few things about the new codex which is an improvement. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/298119-force-or-hammerhand-which-would-you-use/#findComment-3838670 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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