Maximum Tankery - IG allies for SW 2.0

[Frater Cornelius]

After going back and forth, I finally have a decent plan going for the allied detachment of my Space Wolves. White Scars were the best pick thus far, but I found the list to be too predictable. Sure, IG mech is also predictable, but it is very hard to stop with Wave Serpents and Tesla and all that S7 rubbish.

 

So here we are. A second attempts to bring in IG. The questions are also much more specific:

 

1) I am considering the Armoured Battlegroup. Beast Slayer shells are just the thing and a bunch of AV14 monsters handling MCs and Tanks while the TWC take cover behind them and clear out infantry. The Tank are more expensive than the AM book, but do not come with a Troops tax. Do you think ABG makes a superior armoured ally due to the increased amount of tanks available?

 

2) Should ABG be not as great or FW publication not allowed in certain tournaments, what armoured elements do you consider good for busting things that the TWC does not want to see in melee, meaning MCs, (Super-Heavy) Walkers and Elite infatry (Paladins or Wraiths)?

 

3) Are there any other FW non-super-heavy Tank I should consider outside of the Leman Russ?

 

I just ordered a Sicaran Battle Tank. A good start for my armoured support :)

 

Anyway, any input will be highly appreciated.

[WarriorFish]

1) I think the ABG is superior as an ally, as your primary force can mitigate their weaknesses

 

2) Demolishers and Executioners do the heavy popping, and there's always the Paskisher...

 

3) I'd stick with Russes, they're reliable and true :)

[Frater Cornelius]

My primary force usually looks like this:

Wolf Lord on TWM

2 mounted Iron Priests with 3 Wolves each

2*4 TWC with 1-2 SS and possibly an axe

Sicaran Battle Tank, Dozer, Ceramite

 

With ABG I was thinking

Command Tank Vanquisher w/ Beast Slayer shells, hull-LC and co-axias stubber

Commissar Tank with same loadout as Commander

2 Executioners as troops.

 

The idea is that all that long ranged nonsense like Tesla and Serpent can not pop the LR. If anything gets to close with melta or anything, the TWC takes care of it. Iron Priests can keep tanks up. When going on the offensive the tank cover the TWC. Both vanquisher will take on walkers and MCs with armourbane shell and beast slayer shell respectively. Executioners handle MCs and heavy infantry. Sicaran handle jinking tanks and light tanks. TWC handles infantry and jinking things.

 

What I am a bit in the dark about is what to do when FW is not an option.

[WarriorFish]

I'm not sure, the FW list is quite specialist so you can't replicate it well without unbounding

[Frater Cornelius]

No need to replicate. It is impossible since you can not replace the Sicaran or Beast Slayer.

But the IG codex is diverse. There are other advantages. You can still get in 3-4 Leman Russ tanks. High with firepower is the theme. Mounted Veterans are also good at supporting from range.

They need to be able to kill MCs, heavy walkers and elite infantry. Everything that will cost me too many TWC when I engage them in melee. Light tanks, hordes, heavy weapons, heavy tanks or MSU gets eaten by TWC.

[WarriorFish]

Mounted plasma Vets, supported by Russes sounds like it should be able to handle that :)

[Frater Cornelius]

I am considering 2 plasma grenadier squads in Tauroxes. TLAC is respectable, as is re-rolling terrain. And they cost just as much as 10 naked GH with 2 plasmas without transport. Good deal in my eyes.

The big question is: what LR tanks. While I might consider Executioner, I do have a good amount of plasma with vets, so one Executioner at most.

What of the HQ squadron though?

[WarriorFish]

Can you afford Pask? If so then a punisher for him supported by an Exterminator is always nice, or have your Executioner and make use of split fire :)

[Frater Cornelius]

If you take my SW/ABG list and take FW elements out you have 930 spare points.

Two Taurox Plasma Grenadiera should cost 340 if memory serves me right. Add naked Heavy Support Executioner and Pask Punisher and you are at 705.

The question is what tank to take as Pask Wingman. Exterminator does not convince me. Not enough punch. It isn't a Sicaran with 6 shots ignore jink and rending.

 

Also, do you think another tank in HS would be worth it or is the 3 way the way to go?

[Frater Cornelius]

Here is the SW/ABG list again in detail:

 

 

HQ:

Wolf Lord

• RA, SS, TWM, Krakenbone Sword, Fellclaw's Teeth

 

Elite:

Iron Priest

• TWM

• 3 Wolves

Iron Priest

• TWM

• 3 Wolves

 

Fast Attack:

4 TWC

• 1 SS

4 TWC

• 1 SS

 

Heavy Support:

Sicaran Relic Battle Tank

• Armoured Ceramite, hull-mounted Heavy Bolter, Heavy Bolter Sponsons, Dozer Blade

 

HQ:

Leman Russ Command Tank

• Vanquisher, Co-Axial Heavy Stubber, Beast Slayer Shells, hull-mounted Lascannon

 

Elite:

Leman Russ Commissar Tank

• Vanquisher, Co-Axial Heavy Stubber, Beast Slayer Shells, hull-mounted Lascannon

 

Troops:

Leman Russ Siege Tank

• Executioner, hull-mounted Heavy Bolter

 

Leman Russ Siege Tank

• Executioner, hull-mounted Heavy Bolter

 

1850 points. Jarl and TWC handle infantry. IP handle heavy tanks with S10 and keep tanks going. Sicaran kills light vehicles and infantry. Both Executioners handle heavy infantry, light tanks. Since they are the Imperial Armour version, they cost more but do not overheat. Commissar and Command Tank either handle tanks with regular Vanquisher shots or Instant Death multi-wound models or MCs with Beast Slayer Shells.

 

I consider this to be pretty decent, especially against S7 spam.

 

 

 

And here is a first draft of SW/AM:

 

 

HQ:

Wolf Lord

• RA, SS, TWM, Krakenbone Sword, Fellclaw's Teeth

 

Elite:

Iron Priest

• TWM

• 3 Wolves

Iron Priest

• TWM

• 3 Wolves

 

Fast Attack:

4 TWC

• 1 SS, 1 PA

4 TWC

• 1 SS, 1 PA

HQ:

Pask

• Punisher, hull-mounted HB, Dozer Blade, Camo

Executioner Wingman

• hull-mounted LC, Camo

 

Troops:

Veterans

• Grenadiers, 3 Plasmas

• Taurox

Veteran

• Grenadiers, 3 Plasmas

• Taurox

 

Heavy Support:

Executioner

• hull-LC, Camo

 

1850 points. While I consider this list weaker against today's meta than the FW variant since the IG element needs to get close to deal most of its damage, I still do consider this one a good start. All tanks are strong against a variety of targets. The only thing I will have problems with are Wraithknights due to T8.

I know I said I would only take 1 Executioner, but I just do not see the merits of the other tanks in this list. TWC has most of their bases covered.

 

 

 

Let me know what you think and what kind of improvements you would make. Remember, this is meant for a competitive environment.

[WarriorFish]

I think it's solid enough, you're not going to be able to compete with some of the fancy FW rules like the Sicaran has so sacrifices must be made somewhere. The trouble with the current environment is that there's so much that can turn up it's impossible to cover everything to a satisfactory level - sacrifices again. Like you said though you can make certain assumptions, such that in competitive play some big meanies like Wraithknights and Imperial Knights have good chances of turning up.

 

You could give the Vets melta to combat them, but would they survive long enough to get into effective range? In a Taurox that's probably even less likely...

[Frater Cornelius]

I just checked pretty much all known tournament organizers in Germany and I am stunned to see that the majority (especially the GTs) allow Forge World. Holy Nut Balls! The ABG allies might just become a thing along with the Sicaran.

 

However, there is another important question, FW or not. Probably the most important:

 

Do you think that AV14 gun platforms

1) stand a chance against some of the alpha strikes we see these days (podding centurions, Eldar and Tau long ranged dakka, UM drop pod army, ...),

2) are they worth investing in them over SM allies with shenanigans like drop pod centurions and stormtalons,

3) is the lack of infantry going to be a problem?

 

This is really a tough call. I have experienced Leman Russ Tanks in combat since I played ABG in 5th and a bit of Armoured Company with the 6ed Codex. They are great, but there are weapons that tear them a new one. Resilience is important for a non-alpha-strike army. I am not sure that mech can really offer that, but I hope to stand corrected.

[WarriorFish]

1) possibly not, by the very nature of these alpha strikes you have no real protection. Can you use the terrain and deployment to help protect yourself, or hope they roll poorly? Not a great way to protect yourself

2) it depends on what you want to do, if you want tanks then ABG is the way to go but you're exchanging some durability for some fire power - SM allies could mesh better with your SW force though

3) as part of point 1 yes, as they're easily one of the best ways to protect against most alpha striking but then if you're taking them you don't have the points for all the tanks...

I fear you're correct about the resilience of this against alpha strike builds, but as ever it all depends. What if you don't come across many of them, or the missions reduce the effectiveness of such builds somehow? There are countless variables to consider so it is impossible to cover everything. All I can say is decide on what you'd like to run and build the best list you can for that theme. Of course, if you go with SM allies the conversation will have to move elsewhere

[Frater Cornelius]

Well, the SM section is as uncommunicative as ever. Luckily the SW section does help with those sort of things. All I am seeking here is an opinion on IG tanks.

 

My take is that you should not try to be perfect against everything. Try to get the most out of it, but focus on your strategy. The hardest armies these days come from the Eldar, Tau and Necron codecies. Eldar only have Wraithknights to reliably kill AV14. If I can dispose of them T1-T2, I can basically frolic the rest of the game. Fire Dragons will not dare to come close in their serpents with all the TWC waiting. And a WK does not ignore cover.

Tau long range can not kill AV14 unless you bring Railheads, which are extremely rare these days. Fusions will have problems getting close with the TWC waiting.

Necrons also do not have an answer to AV14 except with very close ranged methods. Until then I will have engaged them in melee and shot them with tanks.

SM alpha strike might be the biggest problem here, but they also have problems ignoring cover. There are ways to play around it. Besides, Sicaran is immune to melta with a 20 point upgrade :D

I can also invest 40-80 points in Quad HB Rapier to deal with infantry that gets too close. The options are there.

 

As for the ABG list. Do you think it is solid the way it is? Or would you exchange any Executioner or the Commissar Vanquisher for something else? Especially to accommodate the Rapier Battery.

[WarriorFish]

I like the ABG list, a Rapier would be nice but better to stick with tanks for saturation I think :)

[Frater Cornelius]

Well, dropping sponsons from Sicaran would be a start. 6 shots vs 6 tl-shots are a massive difference already. Then you have to consider the usual limitation of sponsons and that the Sicaran will shoot AV12, where HB do not do anything.

Where to get another 20 points from? I may exchange one Executioner for a Demolisher. That would allow me a Rapier Quad and a melta bomb somewhere. Whether it is worth it is another question. I will have to test out the list as it is first.

 

Personally, I like it too. With a bit of converting I might make the Leman Russ Tanks looks more like the Sicaran Patterns to get a uniform feel out of it (no IG here, the humans will be SW Huskaerls supporting their lieges in battle in bigass tanks).

 

Anyway, thanks for feedback :)

[WarriorFish]

Happy to help Immer, even if I'm mostly being a sounding board ;) A Demolisher is always useful but I'd be worried about throwing S10 AP2 pie plates around with friendly TWC on the board!