Are Space Marines a horde army ?

[GreyCrow]

The title might definitely be provocative, and I'll admit it was designed to grab your attention

I'm still learning to play effectively my army (it's a process !) but over time it appears more and more then the true MVPs of a Marine army are the regular Marines.

First, the statline is relatively decent and second, our support elements are comparatively high priced compared to what they bring to the army. I'm not saying that they aren't effective, but they are indeed expensive for a little extra output in firepower. Bear with me here when I say "support" I mean any unit outside of the Codex Astartes' company structure.

For 1460 points, you have 100 barebones Marines on the table, which means that with picking decently priced upgrades, you could get a fully functional company including HQ for 2000 points. For 1740 points, you can get a full company with Rhinos for the 8 non jump pack squads.

As a more pragmatic example, the Ultramarines 2nd company outfitted as indicated in the two page presentation of the Codex: Space Marines costs 2860pts, including 9 Rhinos for all units except Jump Troops.

If we break down the point cost in that specific example, we have :

- 1255 points in Troops choices (60 Marines)

- 405 points in Assault squads (20 Marines)

- 490 points in Devastator squads (20 Marines)

Total for "standard" power armoured Marines : 2150, or 75% of the total point cost of the company

Obviously, I am not saying let's forget the support elements altogether, because we would miss out on many units that are interesting, but isn't cramming as many power armoured bodies and downsizing the spending on support elements as much as we can a sure way to build a very solid army very quick ?

I mean, we pay premium points for a premium statline and standard gear with basic units that can pretty much do anything given the right circumstances whether it is in shooting, in assault, against infantry or tanks. Should we look at the support elements as just a way to include super premium priced specialized firepower, and just focus on putting as many power armoured bodies on the table ?

I mean, I don't know what can be expected at a 3000 point level battle, but 50 power armoured bodies + support elements at 1500 points seems pretty hard to deal with if you ask me !

Let's debate

[Black Cohort]

Yes bringing bodies is important, but tactical squads suffer from a lack of effective TEQ and heavy (AV13-14) vehicle firepower.  I rarely have less than 2 tactical squads in my army, probably 3 over 1500.  In addition I usually have at least one 5 man scout squad w/ sniper rifles.  Since I usually play Imperial fist chapter tactics there is normally a devastator squad or two as well.

 

But I think at a certain point you lose effectiveness if you only bring squads from a battle company, overall the main marine codex has some of the best internal balance of any codex right now in my opinion.  Some units become significantly better with certain chapter tactics, but off the top of my head I can't think of a unit that isn't useful with at least one chapter tactic.

[Lord Commander Scrymgeour]

A company at 2000 points would be murder to move off objectives. Combat squadded to 20 squads......Madness

[GreyCrow]

Yes bringing bodies is important, but tactical squads suffer from a lack of effective TEQ and heavy (AV13-14) vehicle firepower.  I rarely have less than 2 tactical squads in my army, probably 3 over 1500.  In addition I usually have at least one 5 man scout squad w/ sniper rifles.  Since I usually play Imperial fist chapter tactics there is normally a devastator squad or two as well.

 

But I think at a certain point you lose effectiveness if you only bring squads from a battle company, overall the main marine codex has some of the best internal balance of any codex right now in my opinion.  Some units become significantly better with certain chapter tactics, but off the top of my head I can't think of a unit that isn't useful with at least one chapter tactic.

 

The basic Marine kit does have a problem to kill off Rear AV12+ with the standard krak grenades, that is absolutely true, and having a Power Fist for dealing with vehicles in close combat is always a good thing to go for :) But that is easily compensated by cheap dedicated anti-armour vehicles like Landspeeders with dual MM for instance, or giving an extra melta bomb to a sergeant, or a few meltas/multi-meltas here and there.

 

As a curiosity, what kind of non power armoured elements do you usually have in your ~1500 points list ?

 

A company at 2000 points would be murder to move off objectives. Combat squadded to 20 squads......Madness

 

I haven't even thought about combat squads... that's a brilliant way to anti-meq counter death stars because they'll only be able to shoot (and wipe) 5 marines at a time ! :D

That would actually be a nasty sight to behold...

[Black Cohort]

an Ironclad in a drop pod is in almost every list I make now.  Paired with a Vindicator it leaves most enemies with a nasty choice, kill the doom cannon or kill the angry killing machine that just dropped in your face with dual heavy flamers and DCCWs, most armies at that points level will struggle to kill both in one turn.

 

I also generally field a 5 man sternguard squad.

[Kaedes Nex]

Simple answer is no because they cannot go above 10 models per squad, and while Black Templars can do this, 10 of those bodies are "appropriately costed " MEQ.

Raven Guard, Khan, and Calgar give some pretty good bonuses for 60 Tacticals in Rhinos. The game only lasts a certain amount of turns. If you give each squad a Rhino or Drop Pod even things like IH tactics can see you through the entire game, so it's certainly viable to spam MEQ, but you have to be really careful about it. I really doubt 60 assault marines would be good, for instance, even though I'd really like them to be.

[knife&fork]

Marine hordes will die slowly and not run away easily, that's what they have going for them. 

 

What kind of mission you play decides how useful that is. Back when almost every game was KPs or end game scoring marine horde wasn't that strong, but now it's not possible to give a definite answer. 

[GreyCrow]

Simple answer is no because they cannot go above 10 models per squad, and while Black Templars can do this, 10 of those bodies are "appropriately costed " MEQ.

Raven Guard, Khan, and Calgar give some pretty good bonuses for 60 Tacticals in Rhinos. The game only lasts a certain amount of turns. If you give each squad a Rhino or Drop Pod even things like IH tactics can see you through the entire game, so it's certainly viable to spam MEQ, but you have to be really careful about it. I really doubt 60 assault marines would be good, for instance, even though I'd really like them to be.

So you definie horde by the number of bodies in a single squad, like Tyranids or Orks, rather than by the total number of soldiers on the table ? I can see how that is an appropriate definition :)

I agree with you regarding the 60 assault marines, they definitely lack the proper punch to deal with tougher armour ! For 1500 points, however, you can "spam" 50 MEQ with 3 Tactical squads, 1 Devastator and 1 Assault squad all with transpors and decent gear upgrades, along with 350 points left for HQ and support if we apply that "magical" ratio of 75% core vs. support.

I have not yet played against armies that I know will have an easy time chewing through 50 power armoured bodies, regardless of the Chapter Tactics :D As others mentionned, the base kit has trouble dealing with AV13-14 and TEQ, which is why gearing the support for that job as well as providing a few meltas/power fists here and there is likely to go a long way.

For the next campaign-tournament held by my local store which is held at 1000 points, I'm going to try a very MEQ heavy list that has almost as many bodies as I bring for 1500 points games, I'll try to test the theory and see how it goes !

[Thoqqu]

To put this in perspective, when you take 20 barebones marines I take 50 guardsmen and a platoon command squad with 4 grenade launchers / flamers.

When you add gear to those 2 squads I could either buy gear for 5 of mine or add an other ~30 bodies to the count while only partially filling first troops slot.

 

=)

[GreyCrow]

To put this in perspective, when you take 20 barebones marines I take 50 guardsmen and a platoon command squad with 4 grenade launchers / flamers.

When you add gear to those 2 squads I could either buy gear for 5 of mine or add an other ~30 bodies to the count while only partially filling first troops slot.

 

=)

 

That is a very interesting perspective indeed Thoqqu, thanks for sharing the numbers :)

 

More than ever, I believe it pushes toward the need to invest in as many Space Marine bodies as reasonably feasible, because for the price of 20 barebones Marines, you get a Land Raider and a Rhino. And the Land Raider is definitely not going to be able to win you a game compared to such high numbers...

[knife&fork]

I've faced MEQ spam (50+20 scouts) and I've faced MEQ+GEQ spam (50 marines, 40 guardsmen) at 1750 and I still think you skimp too much on support. The numbers look intimidating but you'll wear them down over the course of a game. Guardsmen can be killed really quickly, marines take a little more work as you can't usually break or sweep them. 

 

That was in 6th however, if you play a maelstrom mission where you can work through plenty of cards things will be very different.

[Terrified Templar]

Don't forget that hordes usually take up a lot of space so if your opponent has a lot of blasts templates it could be tough, even more so if those blast templates are ap3.

[GreyCrow]

I've faced MEQ spam (50+20 scouts) and I've faced MEQ+GEQ spam (50 marines, 40 guardsmen) at 1750 and I still think you skimp too much on support. The numbers look intimidating but you'll wear them down over the course of a game. Guardsmen can be killed really quickly, marines take a little more work as you can't usually break or sweep them. 

 

That was in 6th however, if you play a maelstrom mission where you can work through plenty of cards things will be very different.

 

Of course, we need some specialized support to provide an edge to the MEQs on the ground during those crucial times. But the feeling I have after playing games with lists that were very support heavy is that the premium we pay for support is very expensive for the extra damage or survivability it brings and thus should not take up a too sizeable proportion of any list.

The best example are Terminators : They bring a lot compared to the MEQ kit, but they cost nearly 3 times as much per head with no upgrades. On the tabletop, they do bring a very very decent flexibility to the army, acting both as fire support against infantry as well as being a big game destroyer in melee, but you can't really plan an army around them : point for point they bring less damaging power than regular MEQ.

 

That's why I'd imagine a "balanced" Marine army spending 70-75% of its points for "standard" Marines (Tacticals, Devastators and Assault Marines, including options like Rhinos and gear) while spending 25 to 30% in support elements (including vehicles, elite troops, HQ, etc). I'm going to try out that in november in a 1k point tournament where I'm putting 30 Power armoured Marines (2 full tacticals, half an assault and half a devastator squad) along with a reasonable Captain and a Dreadnought in a Pod (to catch up with my army since I'm playing a Raven Guard list). In terms of ratio, I spend 72% points on MEQ and 28% points in support and the list looks functional on paper, more than by not reaching that 70% mark in standard MEQ.

 

Don't forget that hordes usually take up a lot of space so if your opponent has a lot of blasts templates it could be tough, even more so if those blast templates are ap3.

 

That is true, meaning that silencing or avoiding these cannons should be top priority in the earlier turns of the game :)

[Captain Idaho]

Hmm. Wonder if taking a good 60 Tactical Marines in Drop Pods plus supporting units can be a successful list.

[ElectricPaladin]

So, back when I was regularly playing my own Space Marines army, during a brief lull in my interest in my Blood Angels codex (I think this is after I started painting them, but before I stripped them and repainted them as Knights of Blood...), I used to play heavily meched up Exorcists. This was... back in the fading days of 5th, I think. Certainly before the Space Marines got their latest codex, which was when I gave up on Exorcists.

 

Anyway, my opponent had an army very much like what you describe: three tactical squads with a lascannon in each, carefully deployed, sternguard with that Crimson Fists dude who made them scoring (this was definitely back in the days of loading your list with random special characters and painting your army however you liked), and a librarian. I think there was a thunderfire cannon in there as well.

 

Anyway, my opponent's army was really frustrating for me to crack. He had a lot of very durable bodies who were very hard to shake, and most of each squad could still shift around to react to me while the lascannons stayed immobile and shot at me. I described it at the time as like fighting water. There was no hard center to his army. My attacks depleted his resources, but didn't do much to abate his offensive output. I won, in the end, because my mechanized force was able to safely deliver an assaulting squad into his lines... but it was a very close call.

[GreyCrow]

Hmm. Wonder if taking a good 60 Tactical Marines in Drop Pods plus supporting units can be a successful list.

 

I believe it can, as long as your support elements have the ability to open up transports as well as heavy tanks. Not necessarily on their own, but in support of the weaponry wielded by your Tactical Marines.

 

I would drop all the first wave close to one another, probably on a weak point of the ennemy's flank and make your way from there. Then drop the other Marines piece meal in weak points of the enemy's reaction plan to your assault.

If he reserves most of his stuff, you can make sure to at least obliterate the units he left on the table or drop into a position where it's advantageous :)

 

When I finish building up my demi company (codex structure) with Raven Guard Chapter Tactics, Rhino rushing the 3 tactical squads in the weakest spot of the enemy is probably something that I will do often :D With the Assault Marines on the flank to benefit from their weakened position.

 

So, back when I was regularly playing my own Space Marines army, during a brief lull in my interest in my Blood Angels codex (I think this is after I started painting them, but before I stripped them and repainted them as Knights of Blood...), I used to play heavily meched up Exorcists. This was... back in the fading days of 5th, I think. Certainly before the Space Marines got their latest codex, which was when I gave up on Exorcists.

 

Anyway, my opponent had an army very much like what you describe: three tactical squads with a lascannon in each, carefully deployed, sternguard with that Crimson Fists dude who made them scoring (this was definitely back in the days of loading your list with random special characters and painting your army however you liked), and a librarian. I think there was a thunderfire cannon in there as well.

 

Anyway, my opponent's army was really frustrating for me to crack. He had a lot of very durable bodies who were very hard to shake, and most of each squad could still shift around to react to me while the lascannons stayed immobile and shot at me. I described it at the time as like fighting water. There was no hard center to his army. My attacks depleted his resources, but didn't do much to abate his offensive output. I won, in the end, because my mechanized force was able to safely deliver an assaulting squad into his lines... but it was a very close call.

 

That's an interesting experience ! I didn't play 5th edition but I recall that back then vehicles were a lot more durable than they are since 6th, so it might actually work better now.

You're saying he had roughly 40 MEQ on the board including the Sternguard, at what point level were you playing ? 1500 I'd imagine ?

[ElectricPaladin]

Hmm. Wonder if taking a good 60 Tactical Marines in Drop Pods plus supporting units can be a successful list.

I believe it can, as long as your support elements have the ability to open up transports as well as heavy tanks. Not necessarily on their own, but in support of the weaponry wielded by your Tactical Marines.

I would drop all the first wave close to one another, probably on a weak point of the ennemy's flank and make your way from there. Then drop the other Marines piece meal in weak points of the enemy's reaction plan to your assault.

If he reserves most of his stuff, you can make sure to at least obliterate the units he left on the table or drop into a position where it's advantageous

When I finish building up my demi company (codex structure) with Raven Guard Chapter Tactics, Rhino rushing the 3 tactical squads in the weakest spot of the enemy is probably something that I will do often With the Assault Marines on the flank to benefit from their weakened position.

So, back when I was regularly playing my own Space Marines army, during a brief lull in my interest in my Blood Angels codex (I think this is after I started painting them, but before I stripped them and repainted them as Knights of Blood...), I used to play heavily meched up Exorcists. This was... back in the fading days of 5th, I think. Certainly before the Space Marines got their latest codex, which was when I gave up on Exorcists.

Anyway, my opponent had an army very much like what you describe: three tactical squads with a lascannon in each, carefully deployed, sternguard with that Crimson Fists dude who made them scoring (this was definitely back in the days of loading your list with random special characters and painting your army however you liked), and a librarian. I think there was a thunderfire cannon in there as well.

Anyway, my opponent's army was really frustrating for me to crack. He had a lot of very durable bodies who were very hard to shake, and most of each squad could still shift around to react to me while the lascannons stayed immobile and shot at me. I described it at the time as like fighting water. There was no hard center to his army. My attacks depleted his resources, but didn't do much to abate his offensive output. I won, in the end, because my mechanized force was able to safely deliver an assaulting squad into his lines... but it was a very close call.

That's an interesting experience ! I didn't play 5th edition but I recall that back then vehicles were a lot more durable than they are since 6th, so it might actually work better now.

You're saying he had roughly 40 MEQ on the board including the Sternguard, at what point level were you playing ? 1500 I'd imagine ?

Yes, that's about right, and yes, we were playing a 1.5k game. I do think that it would work better now than before. I can't really do it with the Blood Angels 'dex - at least, not if I want to play them like Blood Angels, rather than marines-who-happen-to-be-red-and-have-an-out-of-date-codex.

[GreyCrow]

Well, that's definitely something to try out now ;) I used to play lower model count armies, but I realized the extra gear upgrade wasn't helping as much as I thought. Especially when comparing our support elements to some other armies'. I faced the Sisters a lot, and their Exorcist tanks are nasty, so are the Dominions (special weapons squads with Scout, imagine how effective they are when placed in a Razorback equivalent with twin linked Multi-Melta...). I roughly had about 30 Marines on the table at the time at most at 1500 points.

 

So I wondered whether putting more Marines on the table would work better, and so far the stats do appear as such. I'm currently reworking my army for a demi company at 1500 points, but I should have a game soon at 1000 points with 35 Marines on the table as a test run (2 full Tacticals, 5 men assault and devastator squads, plus support elements). I have a feeling it will work out better and I'll be sure to have a batrep at some time !

[ElectricPaladin]

I hate to get all philosophical here, but I think this is indicative of one of the major flaws of 40k... the fact that we often feel we have to chose between an army that's "fun" and an army that's "competitive." And don't get me started on the fact that "fluffy" is often a third category that also has nothing to do with the first two.

[GreyCrow]

I hate to get all philosophical here, but I think this is indicative of one of the major flaws of 40k... the fact that we often feel we have to chose between an army that's "fun" and an army that's "competitive." And don't get me started on the fact that "fluffy" is often a third category that also has nothing to do with the first two.

Definitely !

50 Space Marines on the board don't really feel fun, and that's because the fluff portrays Space Marines in a way that is entirely overblown compared to the tabletop mechanics. I recently read a novel with the Raven Guard where a 10 man group of Assault Marines took on an entire Ork convoy and even though they sustained casualties they managed to retreat while clearly stopping it in their tracks. Or saying that when a full Chapter is deployed to take a planet, for example, with game mechanics I clearly don't see that happening, unless the ennemies they are facing have all their stats at 1 !

That's probably because the xenos are super formidable threats compared to us regular humans, and that the Imperial Guard (or Astra Militarum is it now ?) are still very well trained troops, but we still don't really feel that "Marines are awesome" vibe

http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2009/12/40k-playtest-movie-marines-in-5e.html

Here's the update for 5th edition that depicted "Movie Marines" originlaly published by White Dwarf in 2005, and even if this was a fun article at the time, I feel the statlines are closer to what you'd see in the novels in terms of Marine performance It's designed to pit around 10 Marines against an army of roughly 1500 points. It might be over the top, but toning the stats and the gear a little down would be closer to what we see in he fluff, haha

EDIT : Here's the original ruleset https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B-GCsVKE7EghZWRjYWVlM2ItYzVjZS00ZjBlLThhMDEtMDQ4ZWZjYTJiNzIy/edit?hl=en_US

[Captain Idaho]

I might move my list to an infantry heavy army one day to try it out. 50 Tactical Marines, 5 Drop Pods, a pair of Iron Clads in Drop Pods and if I have the points perhaps a Land Raider and Honour Guard?

[Excubitor]

My basic starting point for any list at 1500 or more - 30 tactical marines (usually 2x 10 man squads and 2x 5 man squads), 10 "assault marines" (3 attack bikes, 2 Land Speeder), and 10 devastators. Fluffy, and usually effective (I keep getting tempted to drop the devastators, or replace them with centurions)

 

As an example:

 

2x 10 man tactical squads - flamer, missile launcher, Veteran Sergeant w/ Power Sword, Rhino w/ Extra Storm Bolter (dozer blades and melta bombs optional)

2x 5 man tactical squads - Plasma gun/Grav gun, combi-plasma/grav (as special), Razorback w/ twin-linked assault cannon (can drop down to a Rhino - firing from the fire point is just as good)

3x Heavy Bolter attack bikes (I usually run IF CT, if I run Salamanders I go with MM)

2x Land Speeder Typhoon

10 man devastator squad - lascannon, 3x Missile Launcher/plasma cannon, occasionally rhino/razorback. Combat squad, Sergeant goes with lascannon for signum, rest go together.

 

Works well for me as a core, even as I change the support around I get to know the basic list very, very well.

[GreyCrow]

I might move my list to an infantry heavy army one day to try it out. 50 Tactical Marines, 5 Drop Pods, a pair of Iron Clads in Drop Pods and if I have the points perhaps a Land Raider and Honour Guard?

 

That is going to be a sight to behold ! The Ironclads might soak up a lot of fire from the Tactical squads and that's going to be the downfall of the opponent, because if he doesn't manage to significantly damage your Tacticals in the first turn he can shoot at them, then he's going to be in a bit of trouble. In retrospect, the Drop Pods are going to be a pain as well for objective secured, they'll soak up lots of anti-tank fire as well :D

In terms of strategy for this sort of list, something I've experimented with is trying to put as many objective markers on one side of the board over spreading them around, with 1 or 2 someplace else. That way, if you choose your table edge, you can pick the one with the least objective markers, and usually the opponent will pick the one with the most objective markers.

 

Of course, when faced with very defensive lists, forcing them to spread thin is something you want obviously, but the closer you can have your Troops together without worrying about many objectives behind when doing a Drop Pod assault of a Raven Guard Rhino rush the better.

 

I'd recommend dropping 3 Tactical squads and a Dreadnought in the first turn,

My basic starting point for any list at 1500 or more - 30 tactical marines (usually 2x 10 man squads and 2x 5 man squads), 10 "assault marines" (3 attack bikes, 2 Land Speeder), and 10 devastators. Fluffy, and usually effective (I keep getting tempted to drop the devastators, or replace them with centurions)

 

As an example:

 

2x 10 man tactical squads - flamer, missile launcher, Veteran Sergeant w/ Power Sword, Rhino w/ Extra Storm Bolter (dozer blades and melta bombs optional)

2x 5 man tactical squads - Plasma gun/Grav gun, combi-plasma/grav (as special), Razorback w/ twin-linked assault cannon (can drop down to a Rhino - firing from the fire point is just as good)

3x Heavy Bolter attack bikes (I usually run IF CT, if I run Salamanders I go with MM)

2x Land Speeder Typhoon

10 man devastator squad - lascannon, 3x Missile Launcher/plasma cannon, occasionally rhino/razorback. Combat squad, Sergeant goes with lascannon for signum, rest go together.

 

Works well for me as a core, even as I change the support around I get to know the basic list very, very well.

 

That is interesting and fluffy indeed, makes half of a company as well... I might have to consider changing my Devastator squad to your heavy weapon suggestion loadout, that would work better with my army even if they wouldn't get any benefit from Chapter Tactics :p

[Excubitor]

People may malign the humble missile launcher, as it doesn't kill tanks like a lascannon or melta and isn't the best against infantry, but I see it as something else - you're never bringing the wrong weapon. It can hurt anything, maybe not as well as a specialist weapon, but better than something that specializes in something else.

Besides, without a signum (or another way of getting BS5+) my lascannons never hit anything - it's the whole reason I upgrade my twin-linked lascannon dreads to venerable....sooo many 2's to hit

And as someone who's run a full Battle Company at 2000 points as a lark in a fairly competitive environment (no hardcore tournament lists, but no pushovers either, and some pretty decent players) nobody expects and knows quite how to deal with that many power armoured bodies. And they may only be boltguns...but they're only 60-100 boltgun shots coming at you....with spares! It's one thing to theorycraft on a forum, another entirely to face it (and play it) on a table.

Competitive? No. Fun, and completely unexpected? YES

[Guest Drunk Guardian]

Personally I've tried the mass bodies thing and I have a hard time coping with the amount of casualties I take. To a certain degree you need to take on a Guard mindset of acceptable losses.