Rune Priest Jbickb Posted October 20, 2014 Share Posted October 20, 2014 Hey guys, I'm visiting from the Fang because a friend is starting guard and we have heard that heavy weapon squad spam may be a way to go. But he also loves tanks and would really like to run a Lehman russ spam list. Do you guys have an opinion as to which is better? Also an understanding of the tactics behind which ever is more viable would be helpful. Thanks guys Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/298201-heavy-weapon-spam-vs-tank-spam/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
CoffeeGrunt Posted October 20, 2014 Share Posted October 20, 2014 HWTs don't really get any Blast weapons, and thus are at the mercy of BS3. They're also very fragile in a game where everyone can access S6 Ignores Cover in some way or another. Leman Russes are pricier, but far more durable and sadly, more mobile too despite being Heavy. IMO, HWTs aren't great, especially if spammed, but nor are Russes as they're extremely vulnerable in CC and can be nullified by Shaken/Stunned results. A combined arms Guard force is often the best option, as you can draw on strengths and mitigate weaknesses using the variety of units Guard have. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/298201-heavy-weapon-spam-vs-tank-spam/#findComment-3838486 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kilofix Posted October 20, 2014 Share Posted October 20, 2014 Yeah combined arms is the answer. Early in my 'guard career' I ran all Armor and lost badly to Tyranids that closed quickly and Assaulted my Tanks. Then I ran all Guard Blob and lost badly to Tau who do gunlines better and can Ignore Cover. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/298201-heavy-weapon-spam-vs-tank-spam/#findComment-3838490 Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Ravel Posted October 20, 2014 Share Posted October 20, 2014 Blobs that protect tanks and objectives is a good idea. The more I play, the more I love the cheaper Russes. That way you can spawm somewhat effective gun (4 twinlinked autocannon is not bad) for cheap price, but mostly you spam AV14 front, which can be a pain for some army. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/298201-heavy-weapon-spam-vs-tank-spam/#findComment-3838553 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rune Priest Jbickb Posted October 20, 2014 Author Share Posted October 20, 2014 Ok so what I'm hearing I'd that you guys bubble wrap your tanks with infantry to get them into the fight. So would that look something like HQ CCS Troop Infantry platoon 5x platoon squads Infantry platoon 5x platoon squads Heavy support 3x lrbt 3x lr eradicate (i think that's the autocannon) 3x wyvern Splash whatever else fits. Tactics being March the infantry up around the tanks to give em cover as well as grab objectives or get stuck in combat basically a wall to keep the cc units out. I'd this the basic idea? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/298201-heavy-weapon-spam-vs-tank-spam/#findComment-3838605 Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Ravel Posted October 20, 2014 Share Posted October 20, 2014 This is a good list for me. The only downside is that you lack anti-heavy tank (Av14 and such), and anti-air (of course the eradicator can dish some pain with all those twinlinked). I would also add priests in those blob for good measures. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/298201-heavy-weapon-spam-vs-tank-spam/#findComment-3838613 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thoqqu Posted October 20, 2014 Share Posted October 20, 2014 When you take blobs it really is a waste if you don't upgrade them with special weapons. For simple bubblewrap you could go for the 20 mandatory guardsmen and then conscripts. You get 70 bodies for the price of 50 and end results can be better depending on what you do with them. Add one commissar and that low ld isn't a hindrance anymore. In melee ws 2 and 3 both hit on 4+ except against ws 5 or better which is rather rare and your enemy was most likely hitting on 3+ anyways. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/298201-heavy-weapon-spam-vs-tank-spam/#findComment-3838739 Share on other sites More sharing options...
WarriorFish Posted October 20, 2014 Share Posted October 20, 2014 I agree in that a mix is for the best generally, HWSs are useful but not really suited to building a list around unless you went full infantry company. Tanks are mobile with big guns, also adding some high armour values and durability to your list so will always be useful. Your friend won't be disappointed if he wants lots of tanks :D The Eradicator is the cover ignoring Russ, the Exterminator is the autocannon one (not to be confused with the plasma Executioner!). As mentioned infantry squads need at least one weapon upgrade, and you can get all your trooper needs from a single Platoon in most cases. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/298201-heavy-weapon-spam-vs-tank-spam/#findComment-3838762 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rune Priest Jbickb Posted October 20, 2014 Author Share Posted October 20, 2014 Thanks so much guys this is all very helpful. So your recommendation for a bubble wrap platoon sounds like this PCS Commisar 5x infantry with flamer (flamer I figured because it is hurt less by bs 3 and good if they are charged) Conscripts this comes at around 500 points, which seems pretty reasonable. Not sure what to do with the pcs though I was considering giving them 4 meltaguns and sticking them in a vendetta. I assume in this list a good second Troop choice would be melta or plasma vets. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/298201-heavy-weapon-spam-vs-tank-spam/#findComment-3838987 Share on other sites More sharing options...
WarriorFish Posted October 20, 2014 Share Posted October 20, 2014 Flamers are good infantry squad weapons, and the Commissar will help keep the conscripts going. It'd be a lot of troopers and should cover all the boots you need, letting you take some Vets in the other FOC mandatory slot. PCSs are good options for Vendettas, though at BS3 less effective than other melta methods which is why they usually appear as flamer squads o'doom. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/298201-heavy-weapon-spam-vs-tank-spam/#findComment-3839012 Share on other sites More sharing options...
gomericus Posted October 20, 2014 Share Posted October 20, 2014 Did someone say infantry company? now see I think HWT's are rather good Sure their ld rather stinks but that can be easily compensated for with a CCS with a standard or two,commisars,or a Lord Commisar. Spam at least four of them,say 12 lascannons or the like. Their save can be buffed by adding an adl,,and with the changes to ignores cover they will always get a save now,sure it might be 5-6 but hey their guard,and we wear carboard armour anyways. Tanks on the other hand will not,lest your playing sisters,and frankly most armies are geared towards taking out tanks not facing large amounts of infantry. Remember you dont have to pen to kill tanks,just glance them to death. Also tactically speaking lots of foot units makes it harder to target everything at once,with lots of units moving around,in cover and what not it gives your army time to pick things off,claim objectives ect. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/298201-heavy-weapon-spam-vs-tank-spam/#findComment-3839193 Share on other sites More sharing options...
CoffeeGrunt Posted October 20, 2014 Share Posted October 20, 2014 Did someone say infantry company? now see I think HWT's are rather good Sure their ld rather stinks but that can be easily compensated for with a CCS with a standard or two,commisars,or a Lord Commisar. Spam at least four of them,say 12 lascannons or the like. Their save can be buffed by adding an adl,,and with the changes to ignores cover they will always get a save now,sure it might be 5-6 but hey their guard,and we wear carboard armour anyways. Tanks on the other hand will not,lest your playing sisters,and frankly most armies are geared towards taking out tanks not facing large amounts of infantry. Remember you dont have to pen to kill tanks,just glance them to death. Also tactically speaking lots of foot units makes it harder to target everything at once,with lots of units moving around,in cover and what not it gives your army time to pick things off,claim objectives ect. What changes to Ignores Cover? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/298201-heavy-weapon-spam-vs-tank-spam/#findComment-3839195 Share on other sites More sharing options...
gomericus Posted October 20, 2014 Share Posted October 20, 2014 I dont have my mini brb atm,so cannot remember word for word,but ignores cover now subtracts from your cover,it no longer completely negates it,,say making a cover save of 3 a 4 or what not Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/298201-heavy-weapon-spam-vs-tank-spam/#findComment-3839200 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thoqqu Posted October 20, 2014 Share Posted October 20, 2014 umm... no.Ignores cover still removes the cover save entirely.pg. 165 of the rulebook Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/298201-heavy-weapon-spam-vs-tank-spam/#findComment-3839237 Share on other sites More sharing options...
CoffeeGrunt Posted October 20, 2014 Share Posted October 20, 2014 There were rumours it was going to work that way. Don't get your info from the internet, trust me. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/298201-heavy-weapon-spam-vs-tank-spam/#findComment-3839257 Share on other sites More sharing options...
WarriorFish Posted October 20, 2014 Share Posted October 20, 2014 Yes, that was a rumour that proved false in the end. Probably for the best too. HWSs are viable in number, but that's only really possible in an infantry or artillery style company. Get enough of them in good spots and you can buff them to unleash hell. It's just a shame that they don't have a couple of improvements that would make them better such as Eternal Warrior. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/298201-heavy-weapon-spam-vs-tank-spam/#findComment-3839277 Share on other sites More sharing options...
CoffeeGrunt Posted October 20, 2014 Share Posted October 20, 2014 Eternal Warrior wouldn't make much sense. If Commander Farsight and Imotehk don't have it, I can't see two Guardsmen getting it. I'd say if they were 10pts base following the logic of pricing in a Special Weapons Team, they'd be fair. Fragile and relatively immobile, but cheap. As it stands, 7 Guardsmen for a BS3 Lascannon is slightly more than I want to spend on them, personally. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/298201-heavy-weapon-spam-vs-tank-spam/#findComment-3839489 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rune Priest Jbickb Posted October 21, 2014 Author Share Posted October 21, 2014 Can heavy weapons teams tide in a chimera and shoot out of the fire points? I ask because this sounds interesting as a way to make them more mobile. And therefore potentially more useful Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/298201-heavy-weapon-spam-vs-tank-spam/#findComment-3839774 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Argos Posted October 21, 2014 Share Posted October 21, 2014 That would be nice but no, they aren't allowed to take a Chimera. But, they are allowed to ride in one, whereby one 2 can fire from the top hatch at any given time. Meaning that the 3rd Team would be pretty useless in the Chimera. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/298201-heavy-weapon-spam-vs-tank-spam/#findComment-3839779 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Idlem Posted October 21, 2014 Share Posted October 21, 2014 Yeah, as mentioned above, you'd have to spend a turn moving them inside the chimera, and even then, if you move the chimera the HWT has to snap fire out of the top. Not the best use of a Chimera. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/298201-heavy-weapon-spam-vs-tank-spam/#findComment-3839781 Share on other sites More sharing options...
WarriorFish Posted October 21, 2014 Share Posted October 21, 2014 Eternal Warrior wouldn't make much sense. If Commander Farsight and Imotehk don't have it, I can't see two Guardsmen getting it. I'd say if they were 10pts base following the logic of pricing in a Special Weapons Team, they'd be fair. Fragile and relatively immobile, but cheap. As it stands, 7 Guardsmen for a BS3 Lascannon is slightly more than I want to spend on them, personally. Yes it would, you're talking about one guy - if I hit him in the face with a Lascannon he's dead. HWTs are two guys represented on one base, it won't make them amazing but would stop all the S6 fire being dropped on them for ID. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/298201-heavy-weapon-spam-vs-tank-spam/#findComment-3839871 Share on other sites More sharing options...
CoffeeGrunt Posted October 21, 2014 Share Posted October 21, 2014 You could argue the same point for swarms tbh. A lascannon should realistically scythe through the ranks of a Guardsman platoon. We often joke about the Railgun being able to punch through both sides of a tank, but the round can be stopped by a single Guardsman. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/298201-heavy-weapon-spam-vs-tank-spam/#findComment-3839943 Share on other sites More sharing options...
WarriorFish Posted October 21, 2014 Share Posted October 21, 2014 Swarms already have a rule to represent their nature by getting additional hits from templates anyway. It'd go a little way to making HWSs better, as currently they attract lots of S6+ fire as your opponent tries to ID them. Cover can only go so far. That or a little points drop, I'm not too fussy :P Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/298201-heavy-weapon-spam-vs-tank-spam/#findComment-3839975 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rune Priest Jbickb Posted October 21, 2014 Author Share Posted October 21, 2014 @ idlem did forget they would have to snap fire that's a bummer. So with the conversations we had here and talking with my buddy about what he has for models and what he would get this was what we came up with. 2000 HQ 330 Tank commander exterminator hb sponsons 180 Lehman Russ exterminator hb sponsons 150 Troops 680 Platoon command squad 4 flamers 50 4x infantry squad s with flamers 220 50 conscripts 150 Autocannon heavy weapons team 75 Veterans carapace armor plasmaguns chimera 185 Fast attack 440 Vendetta 170 2 devil dogs 270 Heavy support 535 3 wyvern 195 Lehman Russ demolisher 170 Lehman Russ demolisher 170 90 bodies to bubble wrap the tanks. One demolisher for each flank to try to scare the opponent off the flanks. Vendetta with the flamer death squad (pcs) for air support. Devil dogs to get the enemy's tanks. And plasma vets for a decent anti infantry unit. How'd we do? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/298201-heavy-weapon-spam-vs-tank-spam/#findComment-3840093 Share on other sites More sharing options...
WarriorFish Posted October 21, 2014 Share Posted October 21, 2014 Looks good to me, though I'd just take two Wyverns in a squadron as that's more than enough. Could fund another infantry squad too :) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/298201-heavy-weapon-spam-vs-tank-spam/#findComment-3840252 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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