Defiler in 7th (And soul grinders / plague hulk )

[KingBlanco1994]

in the case of the cultists, they are good for only securing an objective and nothing else, in terms of attacking your opponents units they are useless, they stand there and die and hope for the best whereas the Defiler has a wider utility.

 

3 Obliterators do what Defilers can't; run away after taking two wounds. I'm not saying that Defilers are "better" than oblits, but rather this is a frequently overlooked issue. If your oblits break in you deployment zone there is a good chance they will run off the board. Defilers outrange have a constant gun and don't reduce firepower due to casualties. Do these make them better than Oblits gods no, they just aren't, but oblits have weaknesses that Defilers do not.

 

Also while I've attempted to address your criticisms head on Jeske I think you're missing the point of this thread. This thread is a pointless excercise if those involved simply state "oh X is better so there is no point". This thread IMO is for those who wish to dust off their Defilers and how they may go about doing that. It's how to get the best out of the Defiler, not to simply dismiss it, how to best cover it's weaknesses and make it as cost effective as possible in the wider the context of an army. Ofc. one accepts that it will never be as cost effective as other units in HS but, it's a model gathering dust, and people want to dust it off.

Agreed 100% plus lets face it aside from our pre 7th ed faq drake and maybe the black mace dp and belakor when ever is chaos stuff cost effective

[brother_contagion]

The reason why I like it is because the 4HP, 5-7 attacks on the charge depending on how you equip it, IWND (which has come in handy), and it's Battle Cannon. It is an artillery piece with a bite when things get too close, especially with a Power Scourge. I usually only play my 2 Defilers in games higher than 1500 because of their high cost, but I've generally not been disappointed.

 

Edit: with the new options in IA13 the Defiler does become less desirable, but if someone is using the barebone Codex (maybe where FW rules aren't allowed), the Defiler is a good choice in bigger games.

[KingBlanco1994]

The reason why I like it is because the 4HP, 5-7 attacks on the charge depending on how you equip it, IWND (which has come in handy), and it's Battle Cannon. It is an artillery piece with a bite when things get too close, especially with a Power Scourge. I usually only play my 2 Defilers in games higher than 1500 because of their high cost, but I've generally not been disappointed.

While i only have 1 i use the same load out you use but im thinking of swapping mines Autocannon for a las

[brother_contagion]

 

The reason why I like it is because the 4HP, 5-7 attacks on the charge depending on how you equip it, IWND (which has come in handy), and it's Battle Cannon. It is an artillery piece with a bite when things get too close, especially with a Power Scourge. I usually only play my 2 Defilers in games higher than 1500 because of their high cost, but I've generally not been disappointed.

While i only have 1 i use the same load out you use but im thinking of swapping mines Autocannon for a las

I generally give them an extra DCCW a d keep the TL Heavy Flamer because I'd rather get the flame wall overwatch and the extra attacks, than snap firing the Reaper or TL Lascannon. I take the Power Scourge whenever I know I'm going to be facing high WS opponents.

[KingBlanco1994]

 

 

The reason why I like it is because the 4HP, 5-7 attacks on the charge depending on how you equip it, IWND (which has come in handy), and it's Battle Cannon. It is an artillery piece with a bite when things get too close, especially with a Power Scourge. I usually only play my 2 Defilers in games higher than 1500 because of their high cost, but I've generally not been disappointed.

While i only have 1 i use the same load out you use but im thinking of swapping mines Autocannon for a las

I generally give them an extra DCCW a d keep the TL Heavy Flamer because I'd rather get the flame wall overwatch and the extra attacks, than snap firing the Reaper or TL Lascannon. I take the Power Scourge whenever I know I'm going to be facing high WS opponents.

I face marines alot so the scourge helps and to be honest i use mine as a slowly advancing artillery piece which is also decent in combat

[the jeske]

3 Obliterators do what Defilers can't; run away after taking two wounds.

 

The chance of that happening is imo lower then an av12 walker being hull pointed.

Also how do they run off the board you would have to put the objective closer then 7" to board edge.

IF running off was a problem then anything that is not cult or joined by fearless HQ is suddenly bad. The fire power of oblits is also better. 1 str8 BS3 blast does less damage then 3 BS 4 las against MC/AV targets , same with 3 MM for anti tank at 30" range, 3 plasma also do more dmg to meq. The teq damagebility is also isn't comperable. There were 2 things that defiler did better then oblits. Indirect fire[gone since 4th ed] and melee[not worth it since 100pts nerf and mauler fiend/ally matrix hiting the game].

 

The one and only way to use a defiler model is to make it a plague hulk in an ally demon force. There is no other way casual or not[chaos is already as casual as it gets anyway]. It is not a question of X being better then Y[may as well not play csm at all then], but of defilers not doing what they suppose to do. It does not shot , it does not melee. The fact that it is overcosted is only a "bonus".

 

The chaos LR is a bad casual unit. It does what it suppose to do for too many points. It is not viable, has bad rules etc. But it transports stuff[is limited in that too. The raptors are another one such unit.

 

Defiler on the other hand is like warp talons.

[KingBlanco1994]

I wouldnt say its warp talon bad but it more depends on your meta. My meta isnt WAAC competitive its more casual so it does fine for me obviously what works for once person dosent for another :p saying that i also like to play fluffy armies : D

[incinerator950]

I just remembered about the Blood Pact and their pocket Defiler knockoffs. Could have been a decent opportunity for FW to make something other than a PH just to lower that attrocious cost.

[disease]

Defiler looks cool

 

30 cultists are boring to assemble, uninspiring to paint and underwhelming on the table

 

rule of cool > any and everything else

[Iron_Within]

 

3 Obliterators do what Defilers can't; run away after taking two wounds.

 

The chance of that happening is imo lower then an av12 walker being hull pointed.

Also how do they run off the board you would have to put the objective closer then 7" to board edge.

IF running off was a problem then anything that is not cult or joined by fearless HQ is suddenly bad. The fire power of oblits is also better. 1 str8 BS3 blast does less damage then 3 BS 4 las against MC/AV targets , same with 3 MM for anti tank at 30" range, 3 plasma also do more dmg to meq. The teq damagebility is also isn't comperable. There were 2 things that defiler did better then oblits. Indirect fire[gone since 4th ed] and melee[not worth it since 100pts nerf and mauler fiend/ally matrix hiting the game].

 

The one and only way to use a defiler model is to make it a plague hulk in an ally demon force. There is no other way casual or not[chaos is already as casual as it gets anyway]. It is not a question of X being better then Y[may as well not play csm at all then], but of defilers not doing what they suppose to do. It does not shot , it does not melee. The fact that it is overcosted is only a "bonus".

 

The chaos LR is a bad casual unit. It does what it suppose to do for too many points. It is not viable, has bad rules etc. But it transports stuff[is limited in that too. The raptors are another one such unit.

 

Defiler on the other hand is like warp talons.

 

 

I disagree with you, however again you've missed the point. Your entire post is again "But X is better". The defiler shoots as well as a Leman Russ, but costs more so you saying it cannot shoot is a fallacious one.

[walpurgisnacht]

Straw man, I believe the classification of fallacy. However; context is required. I understand that Jeske is in Russ/ Eastern Europe Warhammer scene, which is very competitive. I believe that tournaments are the only play available there. You go to tournaments to win; ergo, they play to win.

Personally, I don't play tournaments. I teach new players the rules by using a noncompetitive list. As an aside, had a great game versus a new Necron player with a mix of cultists, Fabius Bile and possessed with a defiler as backfield support.

My point is the game can be played with very different perspectives. None are better than the other. Our community here should support one another's views, especially if they differ. That allows our understanding of the game to grow and maybe, if we aren't taking it too seriously, to have fun.

 

TL;DR

Defilers are cool even if not the most competitive of choices.

[the jeske]

Straw man, I believe the classification of fallacy. However; context is required. I understand that Jeske is in Russ/ Eastern Europe Warhammer scene, which is very competitive. I believe that tournaments are the only play available there. You go to tournaments to win; ergo, they play to win.

You realy think that I consider chaos tournament worthy and that I view chaos units/formations through the eyes of "must use for tournament winnning".

I disagree with you, however again you've missed the point. Your entire post is again "But X is better". The defiler shoots as well as a Leman Russ, but costs more so you saying it cannot shoot is a fallacious one.

Options that exist, but don't work may as well not exist. The defiler has a battle cannon. its str 8 ap 3 on a av12+5inv platform for 250pts. There are both better units that shot for the points and 250pts for a battlecannon cannon single shot sucks[ask IG players about how offten normal russes are used]. The defiler has melee attacks, it is faster then a normal walker and has a +5inv in melee. It does those things for 250pts. There are units that melee better for less points and 6 ws3 attacks is not enough to be viable against MC, meq , geq or teq.

It doesn't have a proper niche[for example if it was meh in general, but was a good counter to knights] other then being a 250pts battlecannon armed dread. That is not enough to make him a working unit.

I wouldnt say its warp talon bad but it more depends on your meta. My meta isnt WAAC competitive its more casual so it does fine for me obviously what works for once person dosent for another saying that i also like to play fluffy armies : D

Talons are always bad. Show me an army build that would require the chaos player to run talons and have enough utility low cost to not hurt the list when the army build you need them against is not played at the moment.

[walpurgisnacht]

Бу́дет и на на́шей у́лице пра́здник.

 

Every dog will have its day.

[brother_contagion]

 

 

3 Obliterators do what Defilers can't; run away after taking two wounds.

The chance of that happening is imo lower then an av12 walker being hull pointed.

Also how do they run off the board you would have to put the objective closer then 7" to board edge.

IF running off was a problem then anything that is not cult or joined by fearless HQ is suddenly bad. The fire power of oblits is also better. 1 str8 BS3 blast does less damage then 3 BS 4 las against MC/AV targets , same with 3 MM for anti tank at 30" range, 3 plasma also do more dmg to meq. The teq damagebility is also isn't comperable. There were 2 things that defiler did better then oblits. Indirect fire[gone since 4th ed] and melee[not worth it since 100pts nerf and mauler fiend/ally matrix hiting the game].

 

The one and only way to use a defiler model is to make it a plague hulk in an ally demon force. There is no other way casual or not[chaos is already as casual as it gets anyway]. It is not a question of X being better then Y[may as well not play csm at all then], but of defilers not doing what they suppose to do. It does not shot , it does not melee. The fact that it is overcosted is only a "bonus".

 

The chaos LR is a bad casual unit. It does what it suppose to do for too many points. It is not viable, has bad rules etc. But it transports stuff[is limited in that too. The raptors are another one such unit.

 

Defiler on the other hand is like warp talons.

 

I disagree with you, however again you've missed the point. Your entire post is again "But X is better". The defiler shoots as well as a Leman Russ, but costs more so you saying it cannot shoot is a fallacious one.

 

I agree. I mean, there's gonna be people who like units that you don't like and have an opinion different than your own. Just let that fact rest and let people have discussion on how they want to make these units work in their army lists. Saying that they are bad units is an opinion not a fact, just allow people to have their opinion.

 

Edit: sorry about the funky message, sending this from my phone.

[KingBlanco1994]

I will happily admit the defiler isnt the most game winning unit ever however it can be used as a psychological tool to deter a opponent