BA Characters

[Morticon]

Currently we have:

 

Dante

Tycho (2 versions)

Seth

 

Astorath

Lemartes

 

The Sanguinor 

 

Mephiston

 

Corbulo

 

More special characters than most.   But while the variation is loads of fun and while units like Meph and Corbs seemed to "get it right", the last codex failed to let them really add enough " oomph"  to warrant the inclusion of many of the other units.

 

Looking at why, lets see what we can hope GW would change to make all the characters equally viable. 

 

I'll end off with asking two questions, 1.  If he remained unchanged how much would you pay for him, and 2. If he stayed the same price, what would you expect.

 

Dante: 

 

He had some fairly decent pros.  A really cool, fluffy death mask, hit and run, the no-scatter rule and the ability to take Sang Guard as Troops.

 

The cons however were that damned initiative 1 axe and the fact that SG are just too dear to really make it work in 6th/7th meta.  The bonuses he gave to his squad weren't bad, but the ability to strike in without scatter is not tooooo far off the d6 alone, and more importantly it gives him the option to pack in with an SG squad, an HG squad, a regular ASM squad or a DC - the latter being far too expensive, the ASM being underwhelming, and the HG fulfilling a shooty roll a 35pnt pod with stern can fill better.  

Even with his precision drop, he seems to miss his mark.

He's not inexpensive either, and I think he appears to be costed to his abilities (in a vacuum)- but not costed to how those abilities interact with the rest of the army.  

 

1.  If he remained 100% unchanged, I wouldnt want to pay much more than 185 for him.  

 

2.  If he stayed the same price, Id want a bare minimum of Rites of Battle and possibly an orbital bombardment. But that's not particularly inspired.  More closely to fluff, however I'd prefer he gets an ability to reflect his age and his tactical genius - something like the ability to pick his warlord trait or roll 2 dice and pick one.

 

 

Who's next?

[Jolemai]

You've forgotten about Seth!

[Brother Dallo]

Technically, Seth isn't a Blood Angel, which may be why he isn't on the list. 

 

In terms of wish listing, the ability to add/remove jump packs (either free for the downgrade) or say 15 points for the upgrade seems reasonable.

 

For Tycho, taking the base for a captain is 100pts, combi with sternguard ammo, say 15pts, artificer armour 15ish? Dead man's hands 20ish? Unless I've forgotten anything, it brings him to around the 150-160pt mark, given the lack of accurate costing for his unique abilities. This suggess that he's fairly priced in relation to what he has. That said, if you base him off a Codex Captain instead of our overpriced ones, I can see him dropping to the 140-150pt region.

 

Dallo  

[Morticon]

Had totally forgotten about Seth ><; shows you exactly how often he was used...

[Morticon]

 

For Tycho, taking the base for a captain is 100pts, combi with sternguard ammo, say 15pts, artificer armour 15ish? Dead man's hands 20ish? Unless I've forgotten anything, it brings him to around the 150-160pt mark, given the lack of accurate costing for his unique abilities. This suggess that he's fairly priced in relation to what he has. That said, if you base him off a Codex Captain instead of our overpriced ones, I can see him dropping to the 140-150pt region.

 

Dallo  

 

Dallo, i think this is what a lot of designers probably do, and what a lot of gamers do to justify various characters, but I think its flawed somewhat.  Often, gamers wont take combinations of wargear because theyre not as synergistic as others.  The individual/whole has to be greater than the simple sum of his parts or its just wargear we dont want/need.  

[Remtek]

A chapter master with the same gear is 180 points trading OB for Death Mask and Precision Deepstrike. The hit and run can be gained from CT. Though i'd never buy a chapter master with his Load Out.

 

I'd pay maybe around 160 is he is right now. At 225 points i'd want a good ap2 weapon striking inititave, eternal warrior and a force multiplier for jump packs. Perhaps +1 init to his unit? Something that makes him fast and precise. 3++ would be nice, but i think 4++ is more fitting.

[Bartali]

Sanguinor. 275pts and our most expensive Character.  T4/3W/2+/3++. Eternal warrior stops him getting instagibbed by S8, but the lack of independant character means he's wandering around by himself getting shot up by bolters. Five base attacks, but with a Glaive. His blessing to a Sergent is nice, as his is aura of Fevour, but both are side abilities, not something you'd take the Sanguinor specifically for.

I'm not sure what GW can do with him. A huge points drop for starters, and independant character status would help. Unless a Glaive is drastically improved in the new codex, I still can't see me taking him. He's just to fragile, with just an ok damage output.

What perhaps they could concentrate on is his buffing abilities - make them detachment wide.

[Morticon]

Sanguinor. 275pts and our most expensive Character.  T4/3W/2+/3++. Eternal warrior stops him getting instagibbed by S8, but the lack of independant character means he's wandering around by himself getting shot up by bolters. Five base attacks, but with a Glaive. His blessing to a Sergent is nice, as his is aura of Fevour, but both are side abilities, not something you'd take the Sanguinor specifically for.

I'm not sure what GW can do with him. A huge points drop for starters, and independant character status would help. Unless a Glaive is drastically improved in the new codex, I still can't see me taking him. He's just to fragile, with just an ok damage output.

What perhaps they could concentrate on is his buffing abilities - make them detachment wide.

 

 

If they dropped him to at least 200 and made him an IC, I'd strongly consider him.  

[Shaezus]

Corbulo. Because he has been auto-include for me for ages anyway.

 

If he stays the same price:

 

considering the 6th ed nerf to FNP and FC (although the main thing, corb's 2+ FNP, stayed the same) I would like to see him gain something but the only viable thing apart from an option for jump packs would be to make him an HQ choice. Against the cost and stats of an SM price captain this wouldn't be unreasonable.

 

Cobulo is actually a fair price for what he does IMHO but if they keep him the same, bearing in mind aforementioned nerf-slaps, his cost should go down. 90 points. Any less would be a bargain bonanza.

[knife&fork]

Dallo, i think this is what a lot of designers probably do, and what a lot of gamers do to justify various characters, but I think its flawed somewhat. Often, gamers wont take combinations of wargear because theyre not as synergistic as others. The individual/whole has to be greater than the simple sum of his parts or its just wargear we dont want/need.

Not to mention how war gear and marine characters tend to be overpriced to begin with.

If everything stayed the same I would consider the following a fair cost:

Mephiston - 225

He's good. But no invul, no IC status and no EW makes him very fragile compared to other units in this game.

Dante - 130

No EW and striking at I1 is bad for a fighty character. No scatter deep strike is of limited use as there are plenty of dangerous templates and blasts. Sanguinary guard as troops... eh? Shouldn't be something that costs extra and not an issue with 7ed army construction.

Seth - 100

Not durable, so so damage output and very limited deployment options. I like him but he's not very useful.

Tycho - Normal version - 110

Army wide ld10 is actually very nice but he's got an odd mix of wargear.

Tycho - DC version - 75

A walking VP liability

Sanguinor - 140

He's a bit like a buff saint celestine that can't hide in a unit. Good stats but not good enough to really make him stand out in a fight. T4 3W isn't worth more than this.

Astorath - 140

The axe is pretty nasty but he doesn't really want to do challenges. How often do we face massed invul saves?

Corbulo - 90

This boy can tank! Honestly would run him almost every game if he was an HQ.

Lemartes - 100

The crozius nerf hit him hard. Difficult to safely get him in rage mode.

[Silverson]

Mephiston- change his unit type to jump monstrous creature and leave it at that.

 

Sanguinor- make him The Lord of war and give him rules to warent his price tag. (Sadly I can't think of what would be fun)

 

Dante- give him eternal warrior, points drop to 200 and remove sanguinary guard as troops but give it a funky formation

 

Tycho- keep him the same he's decent for a specific play style. And nice model

 

Death company tycho- make him an upgrade for a squad of death company and remove from hq, can't have a guy thinking he's fighting horus all the time leading an army that are blood crazy enough on there own.

 

Astorath the grim- make his axe strike at initiative and drop him to 180-200 points. Keep his ability to bring multiple units of death company

 

Corbulo- increase his points to 140, make him an hq.

 

Lemartes- give him an extra wound and leave him alone :)

 

That's my opinion and my thinking is it will give them a price gap amongst them and still let them keep the flazor they all bring.

 

 

Also let our Libby dread be an hq :)

[Morticon]

^  Good, measured and considered ideas!

[Xenith]

All good ideas!

 

I'd love to be able to give any of our names characters jump packs for +25pts.

 

I hope Dante gets AP2 at initiative, but the dead man's hand already does this kind of, but with no S bonus.

 

Dante Axe strikes at I Sanguinary guard gain objective secured, rule to allow half of all jump troops in deepstrike reserve to deploy T1, like deathwing assault (Dante is famed for leading formations of BA assault marines) 200pts

Captain Tycho - dead mans hand gives smash, rites of war 150pts

Psycho Tycho - IC, may only join units of DC, gains fleet, loses rites of war, otherwise the same 150pts

 

Seth - as is, 120pts. Upgrades: Make the 'roll a 1 and I punch you in the face' a Flesh Tearer chapter tactic, grants attacks back at I1. Clears the rule up and is awesome, Artificer armour, reaver rends on a 4+ 160pts

 

Sanguinor: Lord of war 300pts

1 sergeant in the army replaces his profile with that of a captain, his unit type and equipment remains the same.

High WS, S5, T4, W4, 2+ Invulnerable. sword encarmine. remains a non-independent character.

 

Corbulo - all BA in his unit pass FNP on 4+, 5+ within 6". Corbs passes on a 3+ (the 2+ is silly, he wouldnt really stand at the front taking all the fire). 3 wounds Heavens teeth is S: As user+1 (not a fixed 5), rending. 100pts. Make him and his unit pass FNP on a 3+ for 120pts.

[Bartali]

Dallo, i think this is what a lot of designers probably do, and what a lot of gamers do to justify various characters, but I think its flawed somewhat. Often, gamers wont take combinations of wargear because theyre not as synergistic as others. The individual/whole has to be greater than the simple sum of his parts or its just wargear we dont want/need.

Not to mention how war gear and marine characters tend to be overpriced to begin with.

If everything stayed the same I would consider the following a fair cost:

Mephiston - 225

He's good. But no invul, no IC status and no EW makes him very fragile compared to other units in this game.

Dante - 130

No EW and striking at I1 is bad for a fighty character. No scatter deep strike is of limited use as there are plenty of dangerous templates and blasts. Sanguinary guard as troops... eh? Shouldn't be something that costs extra and not an issue with 7ed army construction.

Seth - 100

Not durable, so so damage output and very limited deployment options. I like him but he's not very useful.

Tycho - Normal version - 110

Army wide ld10 is actually very nice but he's got an odd mix of wargear.

Tycho - DC version - 75

A walking VP liability

Sanguinor - 140

He's a bit like a buff saint celestine that can't hide in a unit. Good stats but not good enough to really make him stand out in a fight. T4 3W isn't worth more than this.

Astorath - 140

The axe is pretty nasty but he doesn't really want to do challenges. How often do we face massed invul saves?

Corbulo - 90

This boy can tank! Honestly would run him almost every game if he was an HQ.

Lemartes - 100

The crozius nerf hit him hard. Difficult to safely get him in rage mode.

At while ago, I'd call these point drops needed but never likely to happen. However with the huge point drops that the generic HQs are getting now, I wouldn't be suprised if we saw those kind of points values if their profiles stayed the same.

[Remtek]

Corb's as HQ would be great. If he stays the same price i wouldt expect the 2+ FNP, seems like they are removing these types of weird mechanics. Not sure what to expect, if they change him.

[appiah4]

I'll just chime in to say Tycho is at the upper band of what's acceptable for what he delivers.  Armywide Ld10+ is nothing to scoff at.  If he were down to 150 I would rejoice.  Lower than 130 would be terribly OP; codex captain + his wargear alone would warrant more than this.

[Helias_Tancred]

Is Captain Tycho a decent HQ choice?

[Jolemai]

Yes. He is also the only known descendant of Chuck Norris in the 41st millennium.

[Shaezus]

Hehe :D

[Demoulius]

Some nice suggestions so far :)

 

My thoughts:

Dante, let him strike at iniative. Give him eternal warrior. He survived as a chapter master for a century for crying out loud! With these changes id say his current points total would be warranted. Hed be like Calgar, but flying and alot more bad ass :P

 

Seth. Give his weapon an AP value for christ sake! He hits with a double handed chainswords and guardsmen could survive that if they pass their armour save! Other then that hes alright. Striking at S8 with rending is already pretty bad ass :D keep point value as is if changed. If not changed reduce by about 10-15 points.

 

Astorath. Reduce points to about 180-190. Keep as is. If all our character would get power axes striking at iniative it would be abit odd ;) also he forces rerolls on invul saves, very good! Change his fluff though! Its......weird!

 

Sanguinor. Make a lord of war. Give him a toughness boost to 5 but keep the rest as is. If a lord of war give him an extra wound. 3 is pretty low in my opinion....

 

Mephiston. Give him IC, Change S and T to 5. Keep rest as is. 225 points.

 

Tycho. More a lore character then a good TT choice. Keep him as is. Ignoring armour saves completly is also pretty good tbh and not many units have this (anymore) :) point costs are good for the normal variant. Make the DC character not count towards the mandatory HQ slot. Force him to join a DC (seriously, he wouldnt be in any other place...) DC variant at 150.

 

Make our libies, chapies and captains in line with the vanilla dex but add some BA gear like glaive encarmines and such. Perhaps some other things as well that fit with the fluff? Perhaps add the SHP back as an HQ option?

 

Corbulo, make him cheaper. About 80-90 points worth (rules were written with a 4+ FNP still in the game IIRC, the effect he has on an army is greatly reduced...) and reduce his own FNP roll to a 3+. Keep his special rules.

 

Lemy. Keep as is. Hes essentialy an jump chaplain who lost the IC rule, gained I6, a few special rule and a MC'ed crozius. Seeing that as 25 points is pretty decent I think.

 

I would also love to see rules for moriar again but think the odds of that happening are pretty slim :(

[Xenith]

He survived as a chapter master for a century for crying out loud! With these changes id say his current points total would be warranted. Hed be like Calgar, but flying and alot more bad ass

As I've said before, Calgar gets EW because of how well he can take punches to the face.

Dante has survived for so long because he avoids the punches to the face in the first place.