Z00Z Posted October 22, 2014 Share Posted October 22, 2014 So I have 30 pa bodies to still build, and lots of GH arms to snap off the current loadout's. I modelled almost all with bolter/CS as I'm sure most did. I must be honest, I'm struggling to pay the extra 2 pts per GH to have the same loadout as 5th... So that got me thinking as to building the 30 pa bodies in such a way that I culd easily and flexibly field 2 units of GH + unit of WG pa / BC's, buy some jump packs and have lots of flexibility. Of course, trying to work out the nett options of PF,melta/plasma,combi's is a big task. But that got me thinking, what if each WGPL in pa to either GH or BC had a SS...it's 15 pts, and a 3+ invul save will easily pay itself off, in fact, saving 1 additional save will pay for itself with the current pricing of GH's. But just how much AP3/2 fire is out there currently in 7th? Will it be worth it? Will the additional cost mean it would soak up an additional opponents units in shooting phase, will the unit last into another turn? So there's a lot of questions there, which I'd like to hear from my brothers on their opinions. If you were going to give a p.a. WGPL with a SS, what weapon would you give him, a combi or keep it bare... Lots to think about. Thanks in advance Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/298315-discussion-the-merits-of-a-wolf-guard-pack-leader-ss/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigC76900 Posted October 22, 2014 Share Posted October 22, 2014 i would test this by running a few games using them as proxys, i would never put a SS on a WGPL, i usually run PW combi-bolter mix. i think the 3+ inv save will only be effective if you were facing alot of tanks, if that were the case i would make a GH pack for tank hunting and give the WGPL a PF and combi-melta anlong with M. bombs if you can do it. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/298315-discussion-the-merits-of-a-wolf-guard-pack-leader-ss/#findComment-3840964 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Z00Z Posted October 22, 2014 Author Share Posted October 22, 2014 True, however this is still a shooting strength edition. Delivery of any troop unit in DP's mean you will have to weather a round of shooting before you can even think of getting into CC. Walking them or rhino delivery, you still going to face rounds of shooting. We already have the increased benefit of getting a second special weapon in a full unit over the old codex, making the WGPL more resilient means he might survive a challenge better, and hiding a PF inside the unit may be a better option. placing him up ahead also means you can allocate the wounds rather than closest models with LO.S! Guess what im trying to explore is if you get presented with 4-6 AP2/3 shots, ordinarily you have no armor saves and you remove that many GH's off the table. Imagine you can save 2/3rd of those shots. Thats 2-3 GH's spared, for 15 pts. Surely its economical and makes its pts value back? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/298315-discussion-the-merits-of-a-wolf-guard-pack-leader-ss/#findComment-3841092 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigC76900 Posted October 22, 2014 Share Posted October 22, 2014 i guess im too stuck on the idea of a WGPL having a CC weapon and a combi weapon from years of it being the standard for a number of year, i wouldnt mind giving this a shot the next time i play. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/298315-discussion-the-merits-of-a-wolf-guard-pack-leader-ss/#findComment-3841103 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karack Blackstone Posted October 22, 2014 Share Posted October 22, 2014 I have six (6) WGPL each with SS / PF loadout. All it takes is one failed save to drop them. If they could be given an extra wound it might be worth it, or my dice hate me. In theory this build is amazing; on the table, your dice will make or break the leader's usefulness rather quickly. Costs 64 points for a WGPL from a GH pack with PA, SS & PF. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/298315-discussion-the-merits-of-a-wolf-guard-pack-leader-ss/#findComment-3841123 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Z00Z Posted October 22, 2014 Author Share Posted October 22, 2014 Well I wouldnt put a PF on him. Thats too many eggs in one basket. His role would be to increase the units survivability in defence of shooting phase and to reduce spillover wounds from cc challenges. A pa wgpl is not equipped to be a challenge monster, he doesnt have the statlines or the options to make him one. This is where I think we really need to break the 5th ed. Mould. GH's are no longer the must include or jack of all trades unit. For example if im going to give 2 of them meltas for a specific role, I certainly wont give the unit extra ccw, but...if I can make those two GHs survive an extra turn, they can double their effectiveness by shooting again, hence the SS investment Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/298315-discussion-the-merits-of-a-wolf-guard-pack-leader-ss/#findComment-3841206 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skeld Ironthews Posted October 22, 2014 Share Posted October 22, 2014 I tend to run my WGPLs with a Frost Sword / pistol or Thunder Hammer / Stormbolter. The latter of those combos works well with GH packs, one even killed a CSM sorcerer in a challenge last game. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/298315-discussion-the-merits-of-a-wolf-guard-pack-leader-ss/#findComment-3841220 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Donkalleone Posted October 22, 2014 Share Posted October 22, 2014 So I have 30 pa bodies to still build, and lots of GH arms to snap off the current loadout's. I modelled almost all with bolter/CS as I'm sure most did. I must be honest, I'm struggling to pay the extra 2 pts per GH to have the same loadout as 5th... So that got me thinking as to building the 30 pa bodies in such a way that I culd easily and flexibly field 2 units of GH + unit of WG pa / BC's, buy some jump packs and have lots of flexibility. Of course, trying to work out the nett options of PF,melta/plasma,combi's is a big task. But that got me thinking, what if each WGPL in pa to either GH or BC had a SS...it's 15 pts, and a 3+ invul save will easily pay itself off, in fact, saving 1 additional save will pay for itself with the current pricing of GH's. But just how much AP3/2 fire is out there currently in 7th? Will it be worth it? Will the additional cost mean it would soak up an additional opponents units in shooting phase, will the unit last into another turn? So there's a lot of questions there, which I'd like to hear from my brothers on their opinions. If you were going to give a p.a. WGPL with a SS, what weapon would you give him, a combi or keep it bare... Lots to think about. Thanks in advance I might make a mistake but the GH cost 15pts in 5th...so u pay 1 point more for ccw and in general they are cheaper Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/298315-discussion-the-merits-of-a-wolf-guard-pack-leader-ss/#findComment-3841287 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rift Blade Posted October 23, 2014 Share Posted October 23, 2014 I've only got 5 games of 7th under my belt but I've been running pretty much the same list each game, making minor changes to fix my mistakes & take into account what I've learned. In that list I've been running 3 GH packs, 2 with WGPL's. What I've learned is if you play with the Maelstrom missions using the deck of objectives, having WGPL's is a good idea simply because of challenges. Being able to survive challenges is even better. So if playing with the objective deck is what one tends to do then I would say St.Sh's are definitley worth considering. Otherwise, not so much unless you're CC oriented. My 2 cents. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/298315-discussion-the-merits-of-a-wolf-guard-pack-leader-ss/#findComment-3841394 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fenhunter Posted October 23, 2014 Share Posted October 23, 2014 I use SS WG on Drop pods, to mitigate interceptor and to give the squad a bit or survavility, works decently. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/298315-discussion-the-merits-of-a-wolf-guard-pack-leader-ss/#findComment-3841502 Share on other sites More sharing options...
DanPesci Posted October 23, 2014 Share Posted October 23, 2014 the problem you have with this is that in order to use the SS, you have to have him out the front of the squad. But this means that any half decent AP- is going to take him down anyway (3-4 wounds to regular shooting and he is going to fail his regular armour and die) - negating the SS entirely. Of course you can play it in such a way that you're only ever bringing him out front when you think you know your opponent is going to be hitting you with AP2/3 weapons, but that may mean a lot of awkward movement on your part. I find SS are best saved for models that already have a 2+ save. As then this significantly increases their survival rate against low AP weapons. I use SS WG on Drop pods, to mitigate interceptor and to give the squad a bit or survavility, works decently. Although this is quite a nice idea! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/298315-discussion-the-merits-of-a-wolf-guard-pack-leader-ss/#findComment-3841909 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Drunk Guardian Posted October 23, 2014 Share Posted October 23, 2014 My experience has been that anything that is a 3+ roll is extremely fickle, and you would be paying pts to protect 1W with a 3+ roll that is situational depending on what you are facing. I would give shields to my Warlord, Thunderwolf Pack Leader (he is usually a bodyguard for my Warlord, especially when Warlord doesn't take storm shield), and to Terminators that have already paid for it at base cost. That's about it. I think the best defense for most of the Space Wolves chapter is a strong offense. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/298315-discussion-the-merits-of-a-wolf-guard-pack-leader-ss/#findComment-3841921 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Z00Z Posted October 23, 2014 Author Share Posted October 23, 2014 I do get your point, its 15 pts and 3+ invul on the face of it doesnt seem very worthwhile. But what if it managed to save a single AP2/3 that would get its pts back straight away, would you consider it worthwhile then? strategic benefits 1. So my thinking is this, all non AP2/3 fire will be allocated to non special weapon carrying GH/BC/WG. You would do this by using LO.S! and letting their normal armor saves be used instead. Granted you still have to roll to see if the LO.S! was successful, but thats just part of the mechanics,by using this mechanic, you can select any model within 6" (effectively, directing shots away from special weapon carrying models) 2. Attempt to tank as many AP/AP3 shots, for the purposes of again, saving your special weapon carrying GH/BC/WG. For every invul save passed (66% statistically), you've saved a body. pts (12+). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/298315-discussion-the-merits-of-a-wolf-guard-pack-leader-ss/#findComment-3841935 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Drunk Guardian Posted October 23, 2014 Share Posted October 23, 2014 It's worth it if the dice gods show you favor. Everything you spend those points on will benefit the pack leader and the pack in different ways. If you know you're going to be facing a torrent of low AP firepower then it is totally worth it. My concern is how sure are you that is the specific threat you will need the boost against? Also keeping in mind that you have to pay to upgrade to pack leader to start with, so its really even more expensive. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/298315-discussion-the-merits-of-a-wolf-guard-pack-leader-ss/#findComment-3841943 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rift Blade Posted October 23, 2014 Share Posted October 23, 2014 @ Drunk Guardian--Agree that yes you are already paying more pts for just making him a pack leader but those pts bring other benefits as well. +1 Ld & A. Also agree as long as the dice gods are favourable but that's part of the game. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/298315-discussion-the-merits-of-a-wolf-guard-pack-leader-ss/#findComment-3842428 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commander_Moustache Posted October 24, 2014 Share Posted October 24, 2014 I have a pack leader with a SS leading my BC. Seems to work as otherwise some combat hero comes up to them and cuts though a few before they hit, but with a SS my champion can take a few blows Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/298315-discussion-the-merits-of-a-wolf-guard-pack-leader-ss/#findComment-3842613 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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