Deathwing Command Squad Composition

[crimsonsphinx]

So I am canvasing opinion on this squad.  On paper it seems over priced, but it is quite fluffy and I will be building one.

 

I am curious as to what weapons/gear to equip them with.

 

As far as I can see, both the Champion with the Halberd and the BSB are mandatory.  There is nothing limiting the equipment load on the BSB so he can presumably use TH/SS or indeed a heavy weapon?

 

Now for the rest of the unit options.  I need two different guns, to take advantage of split fire, so probably a storm bolter on someone and a heavy weapon on another.  

 

I know there is a contentious point on the Medic.  It really comes down to is he worth taking, or do you take the Banner of Fortitude right?  I would have thought the Deathwing Banner was a better pick, along with a medic, than taking the Banner of Fortitude, especially given the huge points cost of the banner.   Does anyone have any experience with this?

 

So my squad is likely to look like this;

 

Champion with Halberd

Medic with Stormbolter and narthicarium thing

BSB with TS/SS and Deathwing Banner

Terminator with Heavy weapon and chainfist

1 other terminator.   Maybe TH/SS?

 

Thoughts?

[aura_enchanted]

So I am canvasing opinion on this squad. On paper it seems over priced, but it is quite fluffy and I will be building one.

 

I am curious as to what weapons/gear to equip them with.

 

As far as I can see, both the Champion with the Halberd and the BSB are mandatory. There is nothing limiting the equipment load on the BSB so he can presumably use TH/SS or indeed a heavy weapon?

 

Now for the rest of the unit options. I need two different guns, to take advantage of split fire, so probably a storm bolter on someone and a heavy weapon on another.

 

I know there is a contentious point on the Medic. It really comes down to is he worth taking, or do you take the Banner of Fortitude right? I would have thought the Deathwing Banner was a better pick, along with a medic, than taking the Banner of Fortitude, especially given the huge points cost of the banner. Does anyone have any experience with this?

 

So my squad is likely to look like this;

 

Champion with Halberd

Medic with Stormbolter and narthicarium thing

BSB with TS/SS and Deathwing Banner

Terminator with Heavy weapon and chainfist

1 other terminator. Maybe TH/SS?

 

Thoughts?

The dwcs is the only terminator squad we have that lacks the sgt as a result it's the only unit capable of going full melee. It's in my opinion that this opportunity shouldn't be wasted and making them melee centric is a good way to make this happen. And then I pair them with a solid melee oriented hq.

 

The banner: I leave it up to you for picking one, I like dw banner or banner or retribution, fortitude is the way to go though for fnp, the apothecary can't stack up to its coverage.

 

Champion, and apothecary: if your going fluffy the apothecary is okay but if your out to maximize squad efficiency the apothecary is sort of a waste of points imo. The champion on the other hand is an awesome value unit and eats most squad sgt's for breakfast. He's almost auto include to me.

 

Ranged: if your going to do range the assault cannon or heavy flamer should be your choices if you go my route, the cyclone missles are at best inconsistent and are wasted on them, the plasma cannon is a flat no, it can potentially hurt your own squad and thats bad news in a squad that isn't high in model count.

 

The melee weapon options are where things become more flavorful, pick what you wish.

 

Here's my unit composition:

 

Hf

Th/ss

lc

champ

banner

 

If I had the points I'd make banner guy a th/ss guy too and give him a banner of fort over the dw banner. But that's just me.

[SnakeChisler]

Apothecary is a difficult one I take it on the Ravenwing squad but there T5 so I'm always getting an FNP save, I think for an all Terminator force the FNP banner is probably the way to go 2 saves and its paid itself back. A lot of people pack melta's which will just bypass it most times.

 

The Halberd sounds full on wish my Ravenwing Champion was initiative ap2 +2

[crimsonsphinx]

I thought as of the latest FAQ for 7th edition that the normal Deathwing sgts could now once again buy TH/SS and LC weapon load outs? 

 

I had figured the Deathwing banner would go a way to address the lost of the power fist on the apocathary?  The unit gets a net gain in number of attacks with it, even if his are at regular s4.

 

I have loads of plasma in my army, as I figure its the Dark Angels thing.  I did think if I had a ten man terminator squad deep strike, with a character with Lions Roar, you could throw down 3 plasma cannon shots from terminators?

[Raztalin]

Aura_Enchanted brings up an interesting point - although with a Sgt you still get semi decent CC in the form of  a Power Sword, the rest can have Claws or TH/SS. 

 

If you’re going to look to load the Cmd squad with full CC ability then the CML (to my mind) is the way forward - you keep your TH/SS (claws would be OK, but this dude is important, and carries something of worth so let’s keep him alive longer :) ) and can fire what’s essentially a 48" TL S8 AP3 shot per turn (the frag shots there too ofc).  You could get lucky and get 2 hits with it, but dice gods being fickle ... It’s not going to do too much damage to any squad, but allows you to threaten an AV target that could potentially mess you up in later rounds. 

 

Alternatively you go with one of the more common choices, a HF is great at crowd control, and range permitting your always hurting something.  Out of range and your just not shooting jack with it.  Add a CF to this guy and his role is very defined; if you aren’t toasting anything you want to be carving open something so you can toast the contents! :)

 

The AssCan; decent mid-range, rending allows you to potentially screw over anything; DWA turns you'll definitely be getting some of that going on.  Maybe add a CF to him too; nothing wrong with the good olde PF though; you know what you’re getting with it!!!

 

In summary - take the CML if you want a fully kitted CC squad, take anything else (except the PlasCan) for a more varied load out.  Points of course come into play here, the CML and a TH/SS are alot more expensive than just one of the others, the HF with a CF is still a very powerful but cheap (comparatively) combo. 

 

Apoth or Banner of Fort ... again really its points ... the banner has a huge bubble to protect multiple squads; this can allow it to earn its points back very quickly with good positioning; the Apoth, well he can only do his squad...55pts is a big difference though, but in put into context is only just more than 1 DW trooper ... The banner is always better (imo) but the Apoth has its uses, mainly i feel in smaller points games.

 

What’s the ruling these days on the Apoth taking the teams Heavy weapon ... is it the age old argument of in which order you buy the upgrades?  Upgrade the Heavy first, then replace the Fist with a Narth? Or just a no no ... ?

 

Hope my humble ramblings have been somewhat useful lol

[Raztalin]

I thought as of the latest FAQ for 7th edition that the normal Deathwing sgts could now once again buy TH/SS and LC weapon load outs? 

 

I had figured the Deathwing banner would go a way to address the lost of the power fist on the apocathary?  The unit gets a net gain in number of attacks with it, even if his are at regular s4.

 

I have loads of plasma in my army, as I figure its the Dark Angels thing.  I did think if I had a ten man terminator squad deep strike, with a character with Lions Roar, you could throw down 3 plasma cannon shots from terminators?

 

The paper FAQ I think has ommited to mention the previous changes so I think you can chose to play them with any loadout...I however have the Digi Dex and that updated recently and still retains the Sgt load out is fixed ... meh. 

 

Only issue with the Plas Can is when you're up close, it can scatter back onto you and really put the hurt down ... that said if you're dropping in and have the range, a 10 man squad with 2 Plas Cans with the additional shot from your Lions Roar would be a very nasty opening salvo!!! 

[crimsonsphinx]

Could you take a Librarian for example, in terminator armour, then give him Lions Roar and a Power field?  That way, it would be some mitigation in not having storm shields, and allow the squad to take more guns?

 

Most of my "normal" deathwing terminator squads have several TH/SS terminators in them, so I don't really want everyone in my army to have them.

[Quixus]

I thought as of the latest FAQ for 7th edition that the normal Deathwing sgts could now once again buy TH/SS and LC weapon load outs?

The latest Erratum has a weird wording. It implies that the Sgt can get LCs or TH/SS by saying "any model" but in fact prohibits it by requiring the model to remove its storm bolter and power fist to get those weapons. A Sgt. does not a power fist so he cannot give it away.

 

I sent GW an email about that a month or so ago, but besides an automated reception acknowledgement have not heard from them.

[SnakeChisler]

My sgt has a combi Plasma, with Vengeful strike its worth the 10 points

 

Didn't realize the Apoth replaced his PowerFist kind of makes it not worth it and the Banner looks a better bet for FNP, a 12" bubble gives it a fairly big footprint

[crimsonsphinx]

Can a terminator sgt take a combi plasma SnakeChisler?

[Isiah]

Not that I know of.

 

Cheers

I

[SnakeChisler]

Soz thinking of the Librarian

 

Can take items from the ranged weapons list

[Solrac]

At 1000 pts I played a few games with Belial, Command Squad with Fort Banner and 2 Deathwing Squads.

 

I made 5 Feel no Pain rolls on average as I kept everyone within 12" of the Banner. 85 pts may look like a lot but it's definitely worth it.

[Interrogator Stobz]

I understand a_es' points but if I want pure CC I'll take DW Knights. I like to have my BoF toting Comd squad versatile in the mid range like the rest of the DW they protect, I've have great success with: Champ, AC/CF and 3x SB/PFs one carrying the Standard. Libby or Techie with PFG nearby for mutual protection until it's CC time (don't want to give a free 4++ to the enemy :P )

[[TA]Typher]

This is from my DW:Tactica

 

Regarding the DW Apoth and the DW Banner...

 

"The DW apothecary is overpriced he is for what he does. You would think that removing his power fist would give you a rather substantial price reduction of FNP, but no. you are paying a lot of points for  his S4 AP- attacks. Taking him reduces the units effectiveness in CC, thus helping to negate the bonus attacks the DWB provides.  If you field the Deathwing Banner AND a Apoth you are paying for 2 extra power fist attacks and 3 S4 Ap- attacks (5 extra PF attacks from the DWB minus the 3 that you lose from not having a PF with a Apothecary = 2. Now add the 3 attacks that a Apothecary would have from the banner and you only gain 2 extra PF attacks and 3 S4 AP- attacks for your 50 pt banner. I'd rather take another Terminator for those points.

 

 

An Apothecary reduces the combat effectiveness of the unit, with the PF term having a 83% chance to kill a MEQ compared to a 16% chance from the Apoth. Not to mention insta-killing things, being massively more effective vs vehicles and monstrous creatures and 2+armor targets. Add in a charge and the fist averages over 1 wound. The Apoth barely breaks 20%.

 

For 10 points more you can get a Banner of Fortitude instead of the Deathwing banner and Apothecary. it's a no-brainier"

 

 

I haven't worked y the tactica in a while, but if you want more click the link in my sig.

[Master Sheol]

I love DA and DW but all this codex suffers from a single thing: OVERCOSTING...

EVERYTHING in our codex is overcosted and DWCS is overcosted too..

 

I like DWCS but i never use it cause i feel i am wasting points...

 

My ideal setup would be with Champion Apothecary and DW banner...

[Interrogator Stobz]

Agreed Master S; because then it would feel like a Comd Sqd.

As it is, the best way to use them is as a glorified DW Sqd with a banner. One day we will get a fully competent codex writer ;)

[Chaplain Lucifer]

I've been toying with the idea of a DWCS, but the cost is very steep and I don't think I get all those points back. However, I feel that this setup would be the best:

 

Champion, because of I4 S6 Ap2. It's important to try to clear out enemy lower Initiative Ap2 weapons before they strike.

Standard bearer: Banner of fortitude. FnP to everyone around, even other squads. Pricey but each terminator you save is 40 points, save 2 and you have your points back. I would give him TH/SS for protection.

Rest of the squad would probably have TH&SS and a cyclone. Maximum protection and a bit of long range firepower.

[SvenONE]

I too will sing the praises of the fortitude banner.  At 85 points, itself is a worthy upgrade, after all if you make at least 2 FNPs over the course of the game you've earned it back.  But when you realize that you're paying over 200 just for the chance to bring one, that's when it gets more expensive.  A power armored command squad inside a landraider is more expensive, but has more durability.  But that's besides the point.

 

I've been bringing the DWCS when I want to play a model heavy DW list at around 2000+ points, before that I think the points might be better spent elsewhere.  I've been running a DWCS with company banner/Champion/Lightning Claws with my TDA Company Master/Int Chaplain jumping out of a landraider.  Expensive, but it's a ton of attacks, I used to try deepstriking them with Belial and charging but they just lost too many.

[Cactus]

My pick would be somewhere between Stobz and Chaplain Lucifer; always the champion, usually the Sacred Standard of Fortitude with hammer and shield, whichever heavy weapon I think will be best in the upcoming battle, finally a chainfist and/or one or two more storm shields if points will allow. I don't like equipping everyone for close combat as I value the flexibility of split fire, and that requires a storm bolter in addition to the heavy.

 

This unit has three aims:

1. Provide Feel no Pain to the majority of my army. I like infantry-heavy forces so I get to make a lot of rolls and get a good return.
2. Give something a kicking, like every good Deathwing squad.
3. Give my opponent tough choices for target priority. The command squad is dangerous but other units are scoring VPs but they have Feel no Pain from the command squad but the command squad is even tougher to kill but it's also dangerous but.... etc.

[[TA]Typher]

 

My pick would be somewhere between Stobz and Chaplain Lucifer; always the champion, usually the Sacred Standard of Fortitude with hammer and shield, whichever heavy weapon I think will be best in the upcoming battle, finally a chainfist and/or one or two more storm shields if points will allow. I don't like equipping everyone for close combat as I value the flexibility of split fire, and that requires a storm bolter in addition to the heavy.

 

This unit has three aims:

• Provide Feel no Pain to the majority of my army. I like infantry-heavy forces so I get to make a lot of rolls and get a good return.
• Give something a kicking, like every good Deathwing squad.
• Give my opponent tough choices for target priority. The command squad is dangerous but other units are scoring VPs but they have Feel no Pain from the command squad but the command squad is even tougher to kill but it's also dangerous but.... etc.

I would agree with this. Just to add to the point, i wouldn't add a character to this unit unless he was going tank wounds. Spread out your threats