Herald Vs KrakenBone Lord

[Donkalleone]

Herald as The TWC Lord cost 190pts and has really great Cavelary Traits and Rules. Further on a Charge he can "tank" Flamer hits.

Krakenbone Lord with Sword and TWM is already 190pts but has the his Attacks come at I5.

Further u have to spend poins for Runic armor , Fellclaws Teeth and/or SS to make the most out of him.

 

Now in an Army like Immersturms with 5-6 TWC + 2x IP with 2 CW (which i think is good setup) and in the Pretence we get only 1 HQ.

What would you rather Take?

I  like to take (a pair of) Wolfclaws on my Leader (TWC TDA etc) so he can fight and take Challenges if my Hero has unwieldy weapon.

So i have 2 Setups.

 

Setup A 760pts

Herald

IP + 2 Cyberwolves

IP + 2 Cyberwolves

3 TWC with Chainsword+Pistol for the extra Attack in CC

2 TWC with Stormshield/Pistol

1 TWCL with Pair of Claws

 

Setup B 780pts

TWMLord with Krakenbone , Runic , Fellclaw and SS

IP + 2 Cyberwolves

IP + 2 Cyberwolves

3 TWC with Chainsword+Pistol for the extra Attack in CC

2 TWC with Stormshield/Pistol

1 TWCL with Chainsword+Pistol

 

Which one do Prefer? Traits and Rules or DMG?

[Frater Cornelius]

Harald and Tigurius are literally the hardest names GW ever came up with. I have read nearly every variation of their names on this forum alone. It is kina funny
/rant

Now to the subject at hand.
I like Harald more and more the more I think about it. He is great value. The Krakenboner is the superior melee fighter in most cases, no questions here. Especially with the powerful COF traits. But he costs 240 when fully kitted out.
To make an equivalent Wolf Lord like Harald, it would cost you 185 points. So basically Harald pays 5 points premium for a set and awesome trait, his bubble and immunity to flamers. That is good value right there.

Harald does not get re-rolls (unless you have access to Divination in your army) and he is I1. But he attacks with S8 on the charge, potentially ID T4 models.
The only real disadvantage I see is that he only has a 3+/3++. But that is a minor concern for what you get.

In summary, when you can make good use out of Haralds specials, he is much better value than the Krakenboner.
However, if you just want an awesome melee beating stick, go for the Krakenboner instead.
In the above scenario I would say Harald. Not only does he buff the boys, is gives you plenty of extra points to spend.

Edit:

If you take IP, take them with 4 Wolves.

http://i.imgur.com/LMUIddC.jpg

[skeletoro]

I'm not so sure about Harald. For me it's mainly about the lack of a 2+ save.

 

I can't really think of him as good value when he's striking at i1, and lacks runic armour or eternal warrior.

 

His warlord trait is nice, but I don't think furious charge is a huge deal for thunder wolf cavalry, at least vs infantry. It does depend on load out, but against 3+ or 2+/5++, a rend is 3 times as good as a regular wound. If you are wounding on a 3, that would mean rends make up 50% of damage output. And if you're wounding on 2s already then furious charge won't do anything.

 

It's not useless by any means (and an extra point of strength might help a lot when charging that land raider, assuming your iron priest is dead or something).

 

So I'm tempted by him but not sure he actually does a lot for thunderwolves. Or as much as one might think anyway. And then I look at how crazy 2+/3++ plus fire in the blood would be...

[Frater Cornelius]

Fire in the Blood is one trait. You could get a totally crap one, despite the re-roll.

 

Nah, I have tried both. Sure, you can not use Harald as a tank in most cases. Besides, Krakenboner does not have EW either. And he costs 50 points more. Not only does Harald allow you to buy more toys, he is a great force multiplier. S6 on TWC might not be as big of a deal, but against AV or T5/T6 it really shines. Not to mention that Wolves get S5 from that.

But the biggest bonus is Ld10 within 12" and Stubborn across the board for Cav and Beasts. They stay in the fight and the danger of running back 3D6 in both shooting and assault phase is drastically reduced. I would rather have a stronger army than a stronger char.

Besides, I1 is not as bad as you make it sound. If you stick him into a bunch of Fenrisian Wolves, he has enough wounds to survive the enemy's attacks. And those Wolves strike with S5. He himself has much greater chances of killing a MC with his axe.

 

The more I talk about it, the more am I actually turning in favour of Harald, despite how well the Lord usually does. 50 points less and getting all those force multiplying effects is just too good to pass up.

[Hear da Lamentation]

I have yet to try Harald.  That said - my preference is a WolfGuard Battle Leader on a wolf, with RA, Krakenbone sword, fellclaw teeth and storm shield.  That comes in at 180.  One less wound - and attack - but 2+ save, AP2 weapon Str6 and rerolls.

 

I just don't like losing the initiative bonus.  Last time I played the TWGBL - he never actually got hit - because he killed everything he went up against before they got to attack back.

[Jochteas]

Some thoughts:

1) Harald Still gets to keep his bolt pistol (Unlike the Wolf Lord). This is good because;
  - Can still make overwatches (Yes crappy ones, but 1/6 chance is better then a 0 chance)
  - Can get an assault attack. (Again, dice gods 1/6, you get the drill, rather have a chance then not)
  - Can (and Heres the Big one) Use his pistol in CC with the same stats as a CCW but since he's mounted rending! This gives you Flexibility and options. 

2) Harald is a Force Multiplier. If you're running with 4-5 Mounted guys, his greatness isn't going to be felt like if you ran with 15+ guys. No one would run Ulrik in a 3 man TDA group.

3) Points. Its unfair to compare them and not remember that Harald is 50 points cheaper, you can buy ~ a lot~ with 50 points, I can't even begin to list how great that is.


In conclusion: 
When to use Harald:
~ When beast and Calvary are you're bread and butter. 
~ When Playing against Salamanders (because seriously that would be hilarious.)
~ When points are a premium but you don't want to compromise your Lord

When to use Kraken Lord:
~ When you want a Lord to go solo kill your opponents men without worry
~ When he needs to be a hammer to the anvil (Which is your army)
~ Strong leader of a pack but not necessarily the focus of the army (Leader of a TWC pack but with a army primary of GHs or such)

[Frater Cornelius]

Overwatch and shooting is negligible but using pistol as CCW is a very valid point. Sometimes you just want to be faster.

 

But I guess that sums it up fairly well.

Harald: when you have Wolves without a leader to provide Ld10 or when you want to buff your TWC and FW.

Krakenboner: When you need a fast beatstick.

[skeletoro]

I don't think i1 is bad.

 

But i1 with a 3+ save on a character that costs the better part of 200 points... that is bad.

 

I've used Harald. It was pretty frustrating the last time, because he HAD to accept challenges thanks to COF special rules. Well actually, I had a wolf guard take the challenge for him. He would have died if he'd accepted the challenge - the Khan would have IDed him.

[Frater Cornelius]

He does not have. Only Pack Leaders and WGBL have to. And Khan's Sword is only ID on wound rolls of 6.

[Guest Drunk Guardian]

Krakenbone Wolf Lord is an assault hero that you need to support. Harald is a support hero that can dish out some serious hurt.

 

What it comes down to is how many Thunderwolves are you going to field? 1 pack acting as an escort for assault hero will do well with Thunderlord. 3 maxed out packs with Iron Priests and Cyberwolves wants Harald for the buffs since they will be the bulk of your army. Champions detachment as well.

[FenrisWolf]

Some thoughts:

 

When to use Harald:

 

~ When Playing against Salamanders (because seriously that would be hilarious.)

 

 

Oh, hell yes.

[Frater Cornelius]

 

Some thoughts:

 

When to use Harald:

 

~ When Playing against Salamanders (because seriously that would be hilarious.)

 

 

Oh, hell yes.

 

 

Or Sisters :D I buddy of mine did something similar. He played the Avatar of Khaine against Sisters. For those that do not know, the Avatar is immune to Flamers and Meltas. You know the rest :D

[Jochteas]

Some thoughts:

When to use Harald:

~ When Playing against Salamanders (because seriously that would be hilarious.)

Oh, hell yes.

Or Sisters I buddy of mine did something similar. He played the Avatar of Khaine against Sisters. For those that do not know, the Avatar is immune to Flamers and Meltas. You know the rest

I guess at that point the sisters had nun' thing they could do.

[Valerian]

Some thoughts:

 

1) Harald Still gets to keep his bolt pistol (Unlike the Wolf Lord). This is good because;

  - Can still make overwatches (Yes crappy ones, but 1/6 chance is better then a 0 chance)

  - Can get an assault attack. (Again, dice gods 1/6, you get the drill, rather have a chance then not)

  - Can (and Heres the Big one) Use his pistol in CC with the same stats as a CCW but since he's mounted rending! This gives you Flexibility and options. 

 

 

I don't have my rulebook with me, but I don't think you can chose not to use your SCCW in favor of regular CCW attacks in this edition.  Seems like the flexibility to do that went away a few editions ago, actually.

 

Memory may be off on that point, so would appreciate it if someone would double check the close combat rules to be sure.

 

V

[Frater Cornelius]

 

Some thoughts:

 

1) Harald Still gets to keep his bolt pistol (Unlike the Wolf Lord). This is good because;

  - Can still make overwatches (Yes crappy ones, but 1/6 chance is better then a 0 chance)

  - Can get an assault attack. (Again, dice gods 1/6, you get the drill, rather have a chance then not)

  - Can (and Heres the Big one) Use his pistol in CC with the same stats as a CCW but since he's mounted rending! This gives you Flexibility and options. 

 

 

I don't have my rulebook with me, but I don't think you can chose not to use your SCCW in favor of regular CCW attacks in this edition.  Seems like the flexibility to do that went away a few editions ago, actually.

 

Memory may be off on that point, so would appreciate it if someone would double check the close combat rules to be sure.

 

V

 

 

You can still choose to use pistol as CCW.

[Valerian]

You don't have to use a special close combat weapon attack anymore, provided you have one?  Don't suppose you've got the book in front of you for a reference?

[Rune_Priest_Rhapsody]

@Jochteas: You're killin' it, brother!! :D:D:D:D:D:D:D

 

And you're all forgetting the most important reason for running Harald!! So you can run Canis as well. Duh. And lots of wolves.

 

Lots. Of. Wolves.

 

End of Line

[Frater Cornelius]

ll forgetting the most important reason for running Harald!! So you can run Canis as well. Duh. And lots of wolves.

 

[...]

 

Lots. Of. Wolves.

 

End of Line

 

http://i.imgur.com/LMUIddC.jpg

 

@ Valerian - I do not have my book right now, but I can tell you that when a model has multiple weapons, it can choose which one it is going to use. You need to announce it before rolling to hit. Given that a Pistol is a CCW, Harald would have the choice between CCW and Frost Axe.

That would be my reasoning from the top of my head anyway.

[Rune_Priest_Rhapsody]

@Immy: Darth Vader approves. That makes me wonder... Would Darth Vader and Horus be friends?? Hmmm, there's one for the books.

 

End of Line

[Frater Cornelius]

@Immy: Darth Vader approves. That makes me wonder... Would Darth Vader and Horus be friends?? Hmmm, there's one for the books.

 

End of Line

 

http://img0.joyreactor.cc/pics/comment/warhammer-40000-%D1%84%D1%8D%D0%BD%D0%B4%D0%BE%D0%BC%D1%8B-wh-crossover-wh-other-1223010.jpeg

 

I'd say 'yes' ;)

[Jochteas]

@Jochteas: You're killin' it, brother!! :D:D:D:D:D:D

That's why I chose to play wolves and not Xenos. That and I'm lactose intolerant so no cheese for me. Now matter how gouda it is.

You don't have to use a special close combat weapon attack anymore, provided you have one? Don't suppose you've got the book in front of you for a reference?

In my book (and I'm using the one from the stormclaw set if that matters.

On page 40 it states:

Under the title "Pistols as Close COmbat Weapons"

"A pisto can be used as a close combat weapon. If this is done use the profile given above [for a close combat weapon] - the strength, AP and special rules of the pistol's shooting profile are ignored (pg 42).

Then directly under it under the title "MORE THAN ONE WEAPON"

"Unless otherwise state, if a model has more than one shooting weapon he must choose which one to shoot - he cannot fire both in the same Shooting phase. If a model has more than one Mêlée weapon, he must choose which one to attack with when he comes to strike blows - he cannot mix and match the abilities of several different mêlée weapons. However, its worth remembering that if a model has two or more Mêlée weapons he gains +1 attack in close combat (pg 49)"

Straight from the book so I think that would be pretty solid justification for said action. You can use a pistol as a CCW, and if you have 2 weapons you can choose which one you use.

[Valerian]

Ok, no problem.  Just remembering a previous edition (maybe 5e?) where if you had any kind of Special Close Combat Weapon, you couldn't elect to not use it.  It seems that now the use of the SCCW is optional, and you can choose to make your attacks with your Pistol or Chainsword, or beatstick, or Combat Knife, etc. instead.

 

V

[Jochteas]

The Unique thing (and its not like OMGCALLTHEPRESSES) but still generally is unique is that with Wolf Lords you have to trade out that pistol for the shield (and generally trade the chain sword for Kraken bone), but Harald gets to for some reason (not complaining) keep his, and not a lot of people observe that so its a nifty thing to take note.

[Fenhunter]

I use Harald AND a WGBL Krakenfun

[FenrisWolf]

@Immy: Darth Vader approves. That makes me wonder... Would Darth Vader and Horus be friends?? Hmmm, there's one for the books.

End of Line

http://img0.joyreactor.cc/pics/comment/warhammer-40000-%D1%84%D1%8D%D0%BD%D0%B4%D0%BE%D0%BC%D1%8B-wh-crossover-wh-other-1223010.jpeg

I'd say 'yes'

Vader and stormtroopers as 40k. Goes to show you really can find any sort of prone on the net.