Unit Concepts/Wants

[blackoption]

I disagree strongly about not needing a special character generator.  Not everyone wants to run clones of a known figure. Not everyone wants to run clones of anything.  Some players want the opportunity to run characters from the Black Library that are not getting or have not gotten rules.  Right now, the only thing you can customize on a Praetor or a Centurion is the wargear options.  There is more to a soldier than just his choice of gear.  Allowing the option for special rules to a character allows the players to show the history of his leader.  A Praetor who allows a squad to infiltrate or a Terminator Centurion who does rolls only one die for deep strike scatter allows flavorfull additions to a leader and are hardly gaming breaking. 

 

Taking Loken's stats and adding a few points to make him Legion Astartes (ultramarine) is a lazy way to handle players who wish to have a little more options for making their own HQ element for their own army.

 

Have faith that FW cares enough about gameplay to make the ( likely optional) character generator with rules that will not be game breaking.

[Iron Hands Fanatic]

With the amount of circumstantially platonic girlfriends ADB gives his characters, FW will eventually have to make a model of some.

Apart from the obvious, in the form of the Silent Sisterhood, I'd really like to see FW bring more female characters & units into 30k.

There was some talk a while ago (I forget from where) about someone at one of the FW events who spoke to Edgar Skomorowski (who's been designing the Solar Auxilia), where he expressed interest in doing a range of female models for the Solar Auxilia's various officers. Personally, I'm not 100% on why female rank & file SA troops were out of the question, but I guess they're just one facet of the Imperial Army at the time - either way, having female Officers would be cool & a step in the right direction. Hopefully as the Army & Solar Auxilia are expanded, we'll get more female representation in the minis, which would be cool.

Outside of the Imperial Army, I really think some more females in the Mechanicum's depiction would be cool. Now, obviously many of the AdMech's troops are so cybernetically enhanced they become pretty androgenous, but I see the Mechanicum as having a perfectly 50/50 gender split, and if there are ever miniatures released for the Enginseer Auxilia & other, less radically altered Tech-Priests, having some obviously female models would be nice.

Also: women Special Characters. Imperial Army Generals, Astropaths, Fleet Admirals, Archmagi, Heads of Knight Households etc. One I'd really love to see is an equivalent of the Chronos / Orth vehicle upgrade in Titan Princeps form. A badass lady who can be taken as an upgrade for Reaver / Warhound titans, giving them some kind of boost, and able to act as a Warlord.

Maybe as the background of Legion auxiliary units are expanded, we'll finally get so see some female representatives of each homeworld's cultural ties? Hell, thats why I designed this lady:

[shandwen]

The biggest issue with character generation is that 30k lists already get so many special rules. I mean the legion rules on their own staart stacking up way past the chapter tactics of 40k. I cant imagine the abuse that could happen with a primarch led list with further self made special toons.

[hisdudeness]

Blackoption, don't say no one. Because that is what many players did with the 40k Marine codex before the rules changes. I ran Smurf character clones with my Red Scorpions all the time.

 

GW and FW got rid of the generators along time ago for very good reasons. It's not faith in FW that is lacking...its lack of faith of players to not abuse and break the system. Players are incapable of self governing. And what makes you think that a min/maxed character won't just replace the min/maxed Preator? The interwebz declared some build as the best and that's all the unimaginative players run ( they moved to 30k for the wrong reasons). And now the interwebz is bored with that build so they want for something's no new to min/max. I say go back to 40k. A player that cannot find a new build with the hundreds of combos the Legion HQs have is not even trying.

[depthcharge12]

The biggest issue with character generation is that 30k lists already get so many special rules. I mean the legion rules on their own staart stacking up way past the chapter tactics of 40k. I cant imagine the abuse that could happen with a primarch led list with further self made special toons.

 

My dark angels don't have legion rules or characters and won't for a time being. It would be nice to make something unique.

 

 

I'm glad hisdudeness can have a meteor hammer and other legions can have other special weapons, but this does no good for me. Hopefully I'll be able to take some sort of unique weapon relic for the 1st in Conquest.

[blackoption]

Blackoption, don't say no one. Because that is what many players did with the 40k Marine codex before the rules changes. I ran Smurf character clones with my Red Scorpions all the time.

 

GW and FW got rid of the generators along time ago for very good reasons. It's not faith in FW that is lacking...its lack of faith of players to not abuse and break the system. Players are incapable of self governing. And what makes you think that a min/maxed character won't just replace the min/maxed Preator? The interwebz declared some build as the best and that's all the unimaginative players run ( they moved to 30k for the wrong reasons). And now the interwebz is bored with that build so they want for something's no new to min/max. I say go back to 40k. A player that cannot find a new build with the hundreds of combos the Legion HQs have is not even trying.

 

Reread my post then. I said "Not everyone".  This isn't the first time you and I have debated this particular facet of this game before (ref generic chapter masters for BA and DA topic). 

 

usually, the only thing differing Captain/Praetor/Centurion X and Captain/Praetor/Centurion Y is wargear.  Consul rules are a step in the right direction, as were the 5th ed rules for Space Wolf Sagas.  Some players, like me, would like more characterful options and rules when building our army lists. That is why I am excited about the (likely optional) character generation rules that are rumored to be in development.

[Castiel]

 

Reread my post then. I said "Not everyone".  This isn't the first time you and I have debated this particular facet of this game before (ref generic chapter masters for BA and DA topic). 

 

usually, the only thing differing Captain/Praetor/Centurion X and Captain/Praetor/Centurion Y is wargear.  Consul rules are a step in the right direction, as were the 5th ed rules for Space Wolf Sagas.  Some players, like me, would like more characterful options and rules when building our army lists. That is why I am excited about the (likely optional) character generation rules that are rumored to be in development.

 

If the generator gives Praetors a consul style character type then that would be cool. I'm a bit more wary about buying special rules for them.

[hisdudeness]

 

Blackoption, don't say no one. Because that is what many players did with the 40k Marine codex before the rules changes. I ran Smurf character clones with my Red Scorpions all the time.

GW and FW got rid of the generators along time ago for very good reasons. It's not faith in FW that is lacking...its lack of faith of players to not abuse and break the system. Players are incapable of self governing. And what makes you think that a min/maxed character won't just replace the min/maxed Preator? The interwebz declared some build as the best and that's all the unimaginative players run ( they moved to 30k for the wrong reasons). And now the interwebz is bored with that build so they want for something's no new to min/max. I say go back to 40k. A player that cannot find a new build with the hundreds of combos the Legion HQs have is not even trying.

 

 

Reread my post then. I said "Not everyone".  This isn't the first time you and I have debated this particular facet of this game before (ref generic chapter masters for BA and DA topic). 

 

usually, the only thing differing Captain/Praetor/Centurion X and Captain/Praetor/Centurion Y is wargear.  Consul rules are a step in the right direction, as were the 5th ed rules for Space Wolf Sagas.  Some players, like me, would like more characterful options and rules when building our army lists. That is why I am excited about the (likely optional) character generation rules that are rumored to be in development.

We have...shows you how much I pay attention.

 

So why dont you just make the character you want? Why do you need some sort of 'official' rules to do it? I'm sure you can find the old character creation rules on the interwebz. A character generator would set back 30k being accepted as normal FW is. It is near impossible to balance.

[blackoption]

Forgive me, but I fail to see how optional rules make the game unbalanced, as both players would have to agree to use them.  As for why I do not just make them myself...  a forgeworld set of rules would be and equal tool set for any player to use.  One thing I like about the Warhammer 40k (and 30k) setting is that it is large enough to accommadate individual creativity.  Users like Apologist and Arthawes who can create tremendously powerful pieces of fluff to go with their own creation serve as inspiration for many users.  While I am not nearly as artistic as others on this board, I do like to meddle in it.  A sanctioned character creator allows for even more room for members to create their individual works, while still having official rules backing their creation.  In my mind, more is better when it comes to options for creativity.

[hisdudeness]

Well, the fact that you can't see how is worrisome. Add in that there are many more players that don't see it makes it worse.

 

It is impossible (for GW/FW) to account for every option a player can come up with...they can't even account for basic combos of the normal codexes...what makes you think FW has some magic powers to do this? Then you have to account for the Legion rules that interact differently with these special added rules to a Praetor...then they have to account for Legion rules not even created yet. Adding additional Heavy slot for Iron Warriors has a different effect on balance then the same rule on Night Lords.

 

This is an entirly new system that takes away from writing rules we need versus wish listing rules that a player can make themselves.

[blackoption]

Right for the personal attacks huh?...  Is a dissenting opinion from yours really such a bad thing?

 

What grounds do I have to make a character?  Sure I can convert one and make him my own, but what sanction do I have to be able to use that character in a game?  Sure friendly games might allow it, but it will never be more than just that.  With a sanctioned character generator, allowing for more variables to add to a character, in my mind clearly adds to the game.  Yes, there is a potential for it to break the game, but that is why I trust FW with this.  They have done a proto character creator with the 'Victory is Vengeance' rules from book 3.

 

As for your balance point...   considering GW's "unbound" lists they now allow for, I hardly think a character generator will cause much more damage.  Especially since the character generator would be Optional rules in the first place (like blood in the void or most zone mortalis games).  If that is a bad thing in your eyes... I'd argue that you are being to restrictive in your points of view.  If I wanted clearly defined and restrictive rules I'd play chess or deploy back to Iraq.

 

anyways... back on topic.

 

I think Iron Hands Fanatic has a point about upgrades for Admec and Solar Axulia forces. 

[hisdudeness]

The grounds that this is a game and you and your group can do what ever you want. The rules are whatever your group has agreed to.

 

As far as the rest...a sanctioned generator will push acceptance away just like FW was at one time. I generally like the idea, but the addition of such a system will mean that it will never be accepted in main stream tournaments. Again, I trust FW it's the players I don't trust and will ruin it.

 

First, there is no unbound in 30k...yet. Second, very few tournaments are allowing unbound and ones that are severely limited. Rules governing deployment/table interaction are completely different than unit creation.

 

...a sanctioned character.creation system is a clearly defined and restrictive rule set. And in my experience (Bosnia x2, Kosovo, Sinai, Afghanistan x2, Iraq x2) deployments are not as restrictive as you claim.

[caladancid]

I think a character generator will be great. More options are fun, particularly if those options allow for Legion specific rules. FW has done great so far, I will remain optimistic until they do something to deserve skepticism.

 

On a side note, it's pretty crappy to use any excuse possible to brag about your deployments.

[hisdudeness]

I agree, but you know us military guys...when someone whips it out everyone needs to whip it out.

 

But I stand by my points; it was hard enough to get 40k FW accepted, it will be even harder to get 30k accepted with such rules.

[Castiel]

I think we should get back to business now, guys.

 

I'd really like to see rules for the Pyre Guard. I think that'd be ace, having Vulkan and his elite captains running around and ruining people's days. They strike me as an interesting group and I think FW would totally nail the models for them, going on the current standard of the Salamanders stuff.

[Brofist]

Well, you're right.

 

Between the Preator and Centurion we probably have the most comprehensive HQ list spread over 2 characters. Why people keep running the same builds is that they read on the internet "This is the most cost-effective, everything else is bleh" and don't consider legion specific rules and wargear when copy-pasting.

 

I mean, I can spam the living Daylights out of the Solarite Power Gauntlet (Imperial Fists) on my Characters and it being Sx2 AP1 with no specialist weapon. Also, Storm Shields.

 

 

 

"What works" is just game theory. People will always gravitate towards good rules. Bad balance is when you have only one, or several, good options. Right now we have a little bit of the rock-paper-scissors at the lower points levels (clown car list, artillery list, bike list, air cav list, troops list etc) that work ok against some, hard counter some, and are hard countered by some.

 

30K is great compared to 40k because unlike a lot of GWs writing we have a fair number of viable options, and none are too broken. That doesn't mean things are balanced well, though. There are a lot of character, weapon, wargear, and unit options that will seldom be used long term... leaving us with the same core of 'what works well' units.

 

That's why playing 30k in 40k is so appealing to me. You get to face different armies and less mirror matches.

[Atia]

Please go back to topic, we have discussed the character creater in other threads, hisdudeness doesn't like it and we should respect his opinion, in the end it will be forgeworlds desicion to add it, we can't change it.

[caladancid]

I will echo whoever said voidbikes earlier. Those are going to be awesome. Too bad that Scars won't be out for a while.

 

I would also really like to see more Greco-Roman designs within the Iron Warriors. The names of their specialized brotherhoods are awesome. Bulkier terminators with armor looking like Asterion Moloc for the Dodekatheon would be amazing.

[Atia]

I will echo whoever said voidbikes earlier. Those are going to be awesome. Too bad that Scars won't be out for a while.

I would also really like to see more Greco-Roman designs within the Iron Warriors. The names of their specialized brotherhoods are awesome. Bulkier terminators with armor looking like Asterion Moloc for the Dodekatheon would be amazing.

the minotaurs first chapter master will be kyr vhalen ... you heard it here first

[caladancid]

Would be fantastic to have the Minotaurs be related to Loyalist Iron Warriors.

[Raktra]

Shabran Darr is Asterion Moloc. Calling it.

[Slips]

Minotaurs being World Eaters makes more sense to me than Iron Warriors. We'd need to get more hints from FW though :p

[Raktra]

Ah but anything other than "OOOH VAGUE OOOH!" is anathema, didn't you know?!

[Slips]

Well, Charcarodons and Raven Guard would like a word :P

[Atia]

Minotaurs being World Eaters makes more sense to me than Iron Warriors. We'd need to get more hints from FW though

Minotaurs are more greek themed though, which are the Iron Warriors also. And i though Shabran Darr died in Betrayal (need to re-read it, give me a moment)

Well, Charcarodons and Raven Guard would like a word

This The Nicor is confirmed to be a Raven Guard ship, and i will do their former Legion Master with Tyberos Armour and weapons ;P

edit: Shabran Darr charged into some Sons of Horus, losed his arm and seems to die. Betrayal page 58. Kyr Vhalen on the other hand survived Paramar ANd what would be cooler if Vhalen and his loyal Iron Warriors would help to fight in the Webway, and he gets that Custodes Spear as gift from Valdor (hint hint, and a new forged Terminator-armour). It's hardly possible that they choose the "Minotaurs-Name" because of an old olympian legend ;)