Stats for the remaining primarchs?

[Natanael]

 

Regular Magnus and Magnus "Empowered"

 

Magnus isn't like that in the fluff 

 

Lorgar and Lorgar Transfigured makes fluffy sense. Magnus is a super-psyker. He doesn't have to be mad to be extremely powerful. He's powerful at all times. I suppose you could have two version of Magnus:

1. Sulking in his chambers Magnus

2. Finally fighting Magnus

 

 

Yeah. With Magnus, that was pretty much what I meant, I just suck at phrasing it in a way that makes sense =). I was not thinking of it like him being empowered ot angry, more like Magnus holding back and Magnus unleashing his powers to it's full. Aka sulking in his chambers Magnus and Finally fightning Magnus. 

And I agree that a Lorgar Transfigured profile would be awesome in the Calth books. Makes sense, and is supercool. 

[daveNYC]

One idea for how to handle Magnus is to have him as a high risk, hit and miss character. Have basically unlimited, game-breaking potential powers but with some serious risk of him getting sucked into the warp, whether by Big E or Tzeentch. I mean we are talking about the guy who wrote the book on delving too deep.

 

That'd be one way, but it'd be pretty damn unfun to play against.  Either you're removing your opponent's models by the bucketful or your 400 (or whatever) point model implodes taking half your guys with it.  I don't think you want such an all-or-nothing character that the game is won or lost based on single dice rolls in the first turn or two.

[The Red Thirst]

I imagine a 6 wound, 2+/3++ flying Angron. With better hair. 

Gave me a good laugh ;)

[b1soul]

 

That'd be one way, but it'd be pretty damn unfun to play against.  Either you're removing your opponent's models by the bucketful or your 400 (or whatever) point model implodes taking half your guys with it.  I don't think you want such an all-or-nothing character that the game is won or lost based on single dice rolls in the first turn or two.

 

 

...or...or...I have a great idea

 

The Space Wolves admit in Prospero Burns that the outcome of the fight would've been very different had the Sisters not been there. Even with all their other advantages, the Wolves know that the Sisters would be absolutely essential for countering the TSons' psychic might.

 

Make the TSons psychic powerhouses. Make Magnus the ultimate psyker short of the Emperor. If you want to beat him and his legion without suffering ridiculous losses, bring Sisters and preferably Russ. Your soldiers need to take psychic wards similar to the totems of the VIth and having Custodes to back you up would be great too.

 

Psychic powers are meant to be "overpowered" in the fluff. The rules should reflect that as accurately as possible. The way to counter psychic powers would be to make the TSons an expensive, small force. They are one of the smallest legions yet the Wolves go into battle with Constantin Valdor, elite Custodes elements, and Sisters of Silence as support. Why? Because when you fight psykers, you need something to compensate for your disadvantage as a mostly non-psychic legion.

 

The incorrect way of balancing would be to nerf the TSons' powers. You balance the TSons by looking at how the Wolves balance the TSons in the fluff (Sisters primarily, Custodes, and Russ' anti-psyker aura and howl)    

[Memento Of Prospero]

erm, not all thousand sons are psykers, and they brought the sisters and custodes along as an overkill mesure, not an equalizing mesure.

 

In short, they wanted to crush them, not make it a fair fight.

[daveNYC]

And even with all those advantages, plus the additional ones they had from Magnus turning off the planetary defenses and not showing up to fight until the last five minutes, plus the various Tzeentchian events forcing the Sons to stop using any of their powers, it still wasn't a steamroller event.  The Wolves brought their entire legion for the overkill.  They brought the Sisters along to make sure they didn't all get struck by lighting before they could get in the fight.

 

And even though not all 1kSons were psykers, I think that most of the players are going to have little interest in playing non-psyker 1kSons.  Is there even any mention of a specific non-psyker in the legion?  It's mentioned that not all have the power, but mostly in a 'sucks to be those guys' sort of way.  If Forgeworld want's to make a Thousand Sons set of rules that reflects what most fans of the Legion want, they're going to have to come up with a way to represent a bunch of spell slinging power armored transhuman killing machines.  Ideally that would mean high point cost and effective ways to use their powers, but we'll see if Forgeworld is that interested in creating an army that would potentially have a 60+ point per model cost, not to mention the current psyker rules not exactly being the most... compelling when it comes to killing people with your mind.

[Castiel]

And even with all those advantages, plus the additional ones they had from Magnus turning off the planetary defenses and not showing up to fight until the last five minutes, plus the various Tzeentchian events forcing the Sons to stop using any of their powers, it still wasn't a steamroller event.  The Wolves brought their entire legion for the overkill.  They brought the Sisters along to make sure they didn't all get struck by lighting before they could get in the fight.

 

And even though not all 1kSons were psykers, I think that most of the players are going to have little interest in playing non-psyker 1kSons.  Is there even any mention of a specific non-psyker in the legion?  It's mentioned that not all have the power, but mostly in a 'sucks to be those guys' sort of way.  If Forgeworld want's to make a Thousand Sons set of rules that reflects what most fans of the Legion want, they're going to have to come up with a way to represent a bunch of spell slinging power armored transhuman killing machines.  Ideally that would mean high point cost and effective ways to use their powers, but we'll see if Forgeworld is that interested in creating an army that would potentially have a 60+ point per model cost, not to mention the current psyker rules not exactly being the most... compelling when it comes to killing people with your mind.

something like Grey Knights, maybe?

[b1soul]

erm, not all thousand sons are psykers, and they brought the sisters and custodes along as an overkill mesure, not an equalizing mesure.

 

In short, they wanted to crush them, not make it a fair fight.

TSons have a much higher proportion of psykers compared to other legions. I think even the non-sorcerers have a psychic spark a la GK.

 

Anyway...Sisters were definitely there to level the playing field. Look at what happens on Shrike when the Wolves have nothing to counter the TSons' psychic powers...and the TSons aren't even using lethal force

[Marshal Loss]

To me, they should  be extremely powerful but simply cost significantly more; I can imagine forces of Thousand Sons that have immense psychic power on the tabletop but simply can't bring as many Astartes to the field as another Legion. You shouldn't need to bring sisters & anti-psychic shizzle just to be able to beat them.

 

Another idea is making the bulk of the Legion relatively normal psykers, but giving them the ability to 'overclock' their powers at huge risk to their physical forms, as per Prospero! Spawn everywhere!

 

The risk of course is that virtually nobody takes psychic powers in 30k (very few primarchs have access as of right now, and virtually nobody uses Librarians) so if the Thousand Sons aren't balanced properly they're going to be ridiculously hard to beat. It's a pity, because I would have loved to have seen the original plans for Inferno as Book IV to come to fruition!

[b1soul]

You shouldn't need to bring sisters & anti-psychic shizzle just to be able to beat them.

 

Yeah...but you'd take a lot more losses without them. I think that's the idea and consistent with the fluff. You could beat them the conventional way but doing so would be far more costly. 

 

Also, "overclocking" is a great idea. Good job

[GhostMalone]

I was thinking about brotherhood of the storm and how no one ever knows where the khan is but he always appears in the thick of the fighting.

 

Would be awesome if you seize the initiative and choose to deploy within D6 scatter of your enemies Hq or LoW

[b1soul]

I was thinking about brotherhood of the storm and how no one ever knows where the khan is but he always appears in the thick of the fighting.

 

Would be awesome if you seize the initiative and choose to deploy within D6 scatter of your enemies Hq or LoW

 

The Khan is 30K's Creed?

 

Khaaannnnn!!!

[GhostMalone]

 

 

I was thinking about brotherhood of the storm and how no one ever knows where the khan is but he always appears in the thick of the fighting.

 

Would be awesome if you seize the initiative and choose to deploy within D6 scatter of your enemies Hq or LoW

The Khan is 30K's Creed?

 

Khaaannnnn!!!

Just broke into hysterics that was a good one

[Wade Garrett]

So, the consensus is that to accurately represent the XV, 30k meta should consist of three options:

 

1. Play Thousand Sons

2. Play Space Wolves with Sisters of Silence allies

3. Lose.

 

Errrrrrrrrrrrr........

[b1soul]

So, the consensus is that to accurately represent the XV, 30k meta should consist of three options:

 

1. Play Thousand Sons

2. Play Space Wolves with Sisters of Silence allies

3. Lose.

 

Errrrrrrrrrrrr........

 

No...

 

The consensus is more like

 

1. Best way to beat them would be to have anti-psyker support (which goes without saying) 

2. You could beat them with zero anti-psyker support, it would just be less efficient (again...goes without saying) 

3. If you play SW with Sisters and Custodes as support, you have a good chance of winning (SW win in the fluff...surprise, surprise)

[Millicant]

I have to be honest, if this is what you guys are expecting for the Thousand Sons, prepare for massive disappointment.  If the Forgeworld writers have shown us anything so far, it's that all the Legions were full-fledged LEGIONS, perhaps with a specific penchant for one style of combat.  I would not hold my breath for a radically different approach than all the other legions.  I'm sure the psychic potential and prowess will be represented somehow, but I'd almost guarantee not on the level you guys are talking about.  I don't mean to be a jerk, I just think expectations might be getting carried away...

[Memento Of Prospero]

I have to be honest, if this is what you guys are expecting for the Thousand Sons, prepare for massive disappointment.  If the Forgeworld writers have shown us anything so far, it's that all the Legions were full-fledged LEGIONS, perhaps with a specific penchant for one style of combat.  I would not hold my breath for a radically different approach than all the other legions.  I'm sure the psychic potential and prowess will be represented somehow, but I'd almost guarantee not on the level you guys are talking about.  I don't mean to be a jerk, I just think expectations might be getting carried away...

 

Amen brother!

 

The only time where Thousand Sons battle astartes they always end up having control issues, which kills them in the end. I would see them using their psykers to replace using special weapons or wargear, not make everyone else obsolete.

 

They are not that powerful at all. Most of the brothers are psykers yes, but in a minor capacity. Only the characters have librarian and beyond power levels.

[b1soul]

 

I would see them using their psykers to replace using special weapons or wargear, not make everyone else obsolete.

 

 

It's not really about making other legions obsolete. It's more about not watering down their psychic powers just for the sake of some poorly conceived balance. Balance is important and I'm sure the TSons will have their weaknesses...but their psychic powers should be very effective on the battlefield as portrayed in A Thousand Sons.

 

Some of the weaknesses would be

1. Instability, a perils of the warp rule

2. A relatively small legion with a high proportion of psykers, high points cost

3. Vulnerable to anti-psyker counters (their strength is also their weakness)

4. Concentration on psychic mastery has resulted in neglect of other areas (for instance, they might lack mech sport) 

[Blindhamster]

Sanguinius I imagine having stats somewhere between angron and fulgrim, having at least movement as a FMC plus vector strike. Gear I suspect he's going to have a 2+/4++ tbh, probably a sword and regular old melta weapon. I suspect he will be 'up there' with the most expensive primaries in terms of cost.

 

 

now... what I'd like, would be for him to have a couple of the more appropriate divination psychic powers and be armed with a sword and wrist blade... ala fear to tread.

[UltraCaptain]

I can imagine thousand sons get access to a dark channeling type upgrade with RoW or HQ's, that upgrade any unit to either psykers or a dud (no buff) random roll.

 

The second option is burning lore-like upgrade for sergeants and HQ.

 

I can only imagine a purchase upgrade an the option for vanilla (no psyker) squads. Whatever additional legion rules, I wont know.

[Arachnid99]

 

One idea for how to handle Magnus is to have him as a high risk, hit and miss character. Have basically unlimited, game-breaking potential powers but with some serious risk of him getting sucked into the warp, whether by Big E or Tzeentch. I mean we are talking about the guy who wrote the book on delving too deep.

 

That'd be one way, but it'd be pretty damn unfun to play against.  Either you're removing your opponent's models by the bucketful or your 400 (or whatever) point model implodes taking half your guys with it.  I don't think you want such an all-or-nothing character that the game is won or lost based on single dice rolls in the first turn or two.

 

 

I agree it would be difficult from a game tabletop perspective but that variability is what Magnus is all about. Angron kills people, Lorgar inspires people, Curze terrifies people and Magnus is the 2nd most powerful mortal in the Galaxy with no understanding of his own limits. His whole history prior to getting sucked into the warp was him being reckless with his immense power and inevitably it backfiring. If you don't get those two elements, immense power and backfiring, on the tabletop you haven't represented Magnus as written.