Bryan Blaire Posted October 29, 2014 Share Posted October 29, 2014 Actually Templars still aren't cool with Librarians. They think Astropaths are "fine" since they are blessed by the emperor but anything else is still a witch and must be burned.Sorry, gotta disagree. From the current 'Dex: ABHOR THE WITCH Outsiders mistakenly interpret the lack of Librarians within the ranks of the Black Templars Chapter, and the fury with which it's battle-brothers slay Chaos Sorcerers, as an intolerance of all psykers. ...[stuff about revering Astropaths and honoring Navigators]... Instead, the Black Templars' abhorrence is reserved for deviant alien witches and rogue psykers who embrace the blasphemous Dark Gods in their quest for power. ...[stuff about daemons and rogue psykers, nothing about other psykers]... It really doesn't matter how you read it, the BT only abhor alien and rogue psykers because it is the only group it is reserved for, which SM Librarians are definitely not, as they are both members of the Imperium and transhumans trained by Space Marines (therefore not rogue). I don't personally like it, but that's exactly what the text says, and there is no further text on this concept to change the meaning. So the BT are cool with Librarians and all other sanctioned psykers within the Imperium. (Emphasis mine on exactly what the Codex wording is regarding who they abhor) Regarding the Codex... It actually doesn't matter whether it was sanctioned by the Emperor or just the Imperium, it is currently the "law" of sorts for Space Marine Chapters and those Chapters that don't follow it are generally tolerated for their prestige, etc. As such, deviations are all small heresies to the Imperium and High Lords. Choosing not to follow it is the same as not following the rules/laws of the Imperium, and therefore heresy/traitorous. Welcome to the fold, BT. ;) BTW, I'm a pretty firm believer of "you're going to find that many of the truths we cling to depend greatly on our own point of view", so no, you probably aren't going to convince me that the BT point of view is the only way to view the truth. I'm also going to go ahead and put the brakes on any further discussion of the "surprise 'Dex" where it doesn't regard to something about the Dark Angels. There are general forums to discuss rumors. We can banter about heretic/traitor DA and heretic/traitor BT all day and how their backgrounds and Codexes work. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/298606-they-wouldnt-would-they/page/2/#findComment-3847962 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal_Roujakis Posted October 30, 2014 Share Posted October 30, 2014 Actually Templars still aren't cool with Librarians. They think Astropaths are "fine" since they are blessed by the emperor but anything else is still a witch and must be burned. Sorry, gotta disagree. From the current 'Dex: ABHOR THE WITCH Outsiders mistakenly interpret the lack of Librarians within the ranks of the Black Templars Chapter, and the fury with which it's battle-brothers slay Chaos Sorcerers, as an intolerance of all psykers. ...[stuff about revering Astropaths and honoring Navigators]... Instead, the Black Templars' abhorrence is reserved for deviant alien witches and rogue psykers who embrace the blasphemous Dark Gods in their quest for power. ...[stuff about daemons and rogue psykers, nothing about other psykers]... It really doesn't matter how you read it, the BT only abhor alien and rogue psykers because it is the only group it is reserved for, which SM Librarians are definitely not, as they are both members of the Imperium and transhumans trained by Space Marines (therefore not rogue). I don't personally like it, but that's exactly what the text says, and there is no further text on this concept to change the meaning. So the BT are cool with Librarians and all other sanctioned psykers within the Imperium. (Emphasis mine on exactly what the Codex wording is regarding who they abhor) Regarding the Codex... It actually doesn't matter whether it was sanctioned by the Emperor or just the Imperium, it is currently the "law" of sorts for Space Marine Chapters and those Chapters that don't follow it are generally tolerated for their prestige, etc. As such, deviations are all small heresies to the Imperium and High Lords. Choosing not to follow it is the same as not following the rules/laws of the Imperium, and therefore heresy/traitorous. Welcome to the fold, BT. BTW, I'm a pretty firm believer of "you're going to find that many of the truths we cling to depend greatly on our own point of view", so no, you probably aren't going to convince me that the BT point of view is the only way to view the truth. I'm also going to go ahead and put the brakes on any further discussion of the "surprise 'Dex" where it doesn't regard to something about the Dark Angels. There are general forums to discuss rumors. We can banter about heretic/traitor DA and heretic/traitor BT all day and how their backgrounds and Codexes work. The High Lord is seconded by the Emperor and therefore should answer to him, all Space Marine Chapters are supposed to answer to only one authority and that is the Emperor of Man. The laws of the Imperium doesn't necessarily apply to the Adeptus Astartes which follow their own standards set upon by the Emperor of Man. In all respects the Black Templars are the only one's that have followed majority of the design and laws set down by the Emperor himself... and if taken by the 4th ed. Codex, they did not view the Emperor as a deity (which I preferred to the dumb 5th ed.) and they Abhor all forms of Psykers except for the Emperor's because he is the ruler (again I prefer the old 4th ed.) The only thing the Templars could be accused of doing wrongly is training Neophytes with Initiates and I think this is mainly because back in the Legion days of the Templars, they were the Elites of the Imperial Fist and didn't have Neophytes train, so they trained them like Initiates to make them full-fledged Space Marines faster. Perspective is viewed through different eyes in the 41st Millenia, but the one 'true' view of who is right in the Imperium's Eyes is through the Emperor of Man's... and by his edicts and orders... DA fails by how much? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/298606-they-wouldnt-would-they/page/2/#findComment-3847991 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bryan Blaire Posted October 30, 2014 Share Posted October 30, 2014 Sadly, the BT gave up their right to claim anything about following their Emperor when their Primarch split up his Legion to comply, however reluctantly, with his brother, giving in to an authority other than the Emperor, for a design other than the Emperor's. Sadly Dorn failed his Emperor, while the Lion "went to his death" to prevent the traitors within his Legion from surviving as best he could. Even the DA keep true to the Legion vision and structure of the Emperor, however clandestine they must, while the sons of Dorn capitulated. As this is one of the secrets they will kill the lessers who pledge their loyalty to the High Lords, not the Emperor itself, it can not be a crime against him to kill those that are not loyal, and it is the Emperor's vision of Space Marine Legions they remain loyal to, something the Black Templars cannot claim. "Loyalty is it's own reward." ;) After all, the loyal Lion still slumbers in the heart of the Rock, known only to the Emperor and the Watchers, while Dorn... Well, he's gone, no longer under the watchful gave of his Father. :D Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/298606-they-wouldnt-would-they/page/2/#findComment-3848012 Share on other sites More sharing options...
shabbadoo Posted October 30, 2014 Share Posted October 30, 2014 The Slann are leaving the Olde Worlde, and are returning to space! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/298606-they-wouldnt-would-they/page/2/#findComment-3848175 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal_Roujakis Posted October 30, 2014 Share Posted October 30, 2014 Ofcourse... Dorn capitulated to the whims of "Girlyman" but Sigismund never did, he saw what the tenets of the Codex Astartes were and decided that if the Legion where he came from would yield to the whims of a heretic, then he would not. He was cast off by Dorn in the 1st place before the Defence of Terra even started. And speaking of the Defence of Terra, where were the Lion and the so called loyal and Honored Astartes of the 1st Legion, they were like heretics cowering in the shadows waiting for the victor to emerge so that they could claim allies of the victorious even if the traitorous Warmaster had won. Meanwhile the Sons of Dorn were not giving a single step to the Enemy, defending the gates of Terra with the Blood Angels against no less than 6 Legions of the Great Enemy. Dorn failed to protect his Father, but so did all the Primarchs that declared that they were loyal to the Emperor, Dorn decided to agree with the tenets of Guilliman because he didn't want another civil war to tear the Imperium apart after it just survived the Horus Heresy. And Dorn was honour bound, unlike the 1st legion who slinked into obscurity to cover their shame and guilt, he showed that he was opposed to Guilliman's heretical tenets, he did not follow it, and he told Guilliman face-to-face. But when it was eminent that there would be another civil war, he HAD to relent because they ahd just survived the Horus Heresy, Lion'el Johnson would have probably let there be a Civil War and would have had just joined the winning side afterwards just to save his Legion. Another fact is that, unlike the Lion who let half his Legion turn heretic, Dorn decided to cleanse his Legion through the Pain Glove for their failure to protect the Emperor, reminding them of duty and loyalty to the Throne, he cleanse the entire Chapter through Fire and Battle in the Iron Cage, he Crusaded even until his death in the Sword of Sacrilege. The Black Templars defended Cadia from the 1st Black Crusade by Abaddon, the 1st who saw the sins of humanity returning to finish the job of their Warmaster, they Crusaded Terra when a heretic took the helm of the High Lords, they answered to call of Armageddon, one of the biggest Xenos invasion by the Orks. In meantime what has the 1st Legion done? captured heretics that some have claimed to be loyal to the Emperor, hiding their shame in their little fortress like some politician who has a graveyard of skeletons in his closet. Never has a a Black Templar adhere to the High Lords or Terra, in-fact we have Crusaded against them... something that the Dark Angels never claim, for they are too scared to be the focus of the wrath of the Imperium... the Black Templars ACCEPT ANY CHALLENGE NO MATTER THE ODDS! Especially heretics that think their authority supersedes that of the Emperor himself. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/298606-they-wouldnt-would-they/page/2/#findComment-3848179 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kastor Krieg Posted October 30, 2014 Share Posted October 30, 2014 Well said, Brother Marshal.One omission stands to be corrected though, honourable one: Meanwhile the Sons of Dorn were not giving a single step to the Enemy, defending the gates of Terra with the Blood Angels against no less than 6 Legions of the Great Enemy. We CANNOT forget the service, courage and sacrifice of the Sons of the Storm on Terra. The White Scars deserve mention just as much as the Blood Angels or our primogenitors. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/298606-they-wouldnt-would-they/page/2/#findComment-3848195 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Isiah Posted October 30, 2014 Share Posted October 30, 2014 This is all great but we're a long way off what should be a DA discussion? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/298606-they-wouldnt-would-they/page/2/#findComment-3848209 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Master Sheol Posted October 30, 2014 Share Posted October 30, 2014 To be correct was the WS that was undecided to wich side be part at the beginning of the HH... The Lion may have bad behavior but in all the HH fluff he is always loyal... The treachery on Caliban was all Luther's fault and to confirm that Cypher and all the loyal DA on Caliban repainted their armours green and fought against zluther and the Fallen... DA were stopped during the road to Terra first by the NL and then slowed down when the SW wanted to free the worlds they found on their way to Terra while Jonson wanted to rush to rescue the Emperor... After the Fall of Caliban and the disappearing of the lion the loyal DA decided to hide what happened because they knew that there was not the need of another civil war just after the HH... I don't see any spark of heresy in what DA did during the HH and just after... The problems started when the Fallen started to emerge from the warp, if they where all dead as the DA believed in the first moments DA would be probably the most honorable Legion ever... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/298606-they-wouldnt-would-they/page/2/#findComment-3848217 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaplain Lucifer Posted October 30, 2014 Share Posted October 30, 2014 You had a warning and you failed to abide by it. Thread closed. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/298606-they-wouldnt-would-they/page/2/#findComment-3848246 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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