How Competitive Are We?

[NightHowler]

My last game was against the 5 knights.  

 

My list is 1850 and I use the Wolves Unleashed detachment partly because of the rules for army composition that the LVO goes by.  I had 2 squads of 6 TWC with 2 power fists and 6 storm shields.  2 Wolf Priests on bikes to give my TWC fearless and preferred enemy (I didn't make a single 6+ FnP the whole game so I don't count it as much of anything).  2 squads of bloodclaws (one naked with a stormwolf dedicated transport and one with a TDA pack leader).  1 non-dedicated stormwolf.  1 Iron Priest, naked.  2 thrall servitors, naked.  And my Culexus.

 

The TWC do what they do.  Never closer than 2" to each other, and with my power fists positioned back a bit so that they aren't soaking up wounds.

 

One of my stormwolves is a dedicated transport for a 5 man squad of naked Bloodclaws and I attach a naked Iron Priest to them to give the unit outflank on a 4+.  Outflanking stormwolves are pure gold against knights with their shields.

 

My other squad of bloodclaws has a wolf guard pack leader in TDA, and they ride in the other stormwolf.  It's not a dedicated transport for them, because my Culexus rides in it when I face deathstars (most of deathstars require psychic powers to be effective and the Culexus levels the playing field for my TWC), but since there were no psychers in the knight detachment, my Culexus held a back field objective and the bloodclaw pack flew in the stormwolf.

 

The thrall servitors that help hold backfield objectives (although I got a lucky roll in one game and outflanked one to nab an objective in my opponents back field after tying up his army with my TWC - not a reliable strategy, but great fun for sure).

 

The game against the knights was fun, and it was pretty close.  At the end of the game, I had downed all of the knights and he had killed all of my thunderwolves and both squads of bloodclaws.  My iron priest actually got the killing blow on the last knight and the blast that goes off when they die scattered away from him thankfully.  I clearly didn't dominate my opponent, but I did table him.  I had my Culexus, 2 servitors, both stormwolves, and an Iron Priest with 1 wound left when it was over.

[Frater Cornelius]

Howler, how exactly did you play against Taudar in 7th and with the new codex? Just wondering ;)

[NightHowler]

Howler, how exactly did you play against Taudar in 7th and with the new codex? Just wondering

Ha! You got me. I didn't have my stormwolves back when I was beating Taudar, and I haven't had any games against them in 7th.

My list was quite a bit different then, but still built entirely around my thunderwolves. Back then I ran a unit made almost entirely of wolf lords on thunderwolves in runic armor, with shields and various CC weapons.

In 7th I've started moving away from wolf lords entirely - the basic thunderwolf cavalry model is so incredibly cheap now for what they bring to the table that for the 240+ points I would spend on a lord, I can get almost 5 more thunderwolves all with shields. On the charge, that's 25 S5 rending hits to my wolf lords 6 attacks, not to mention the 6 extra wounds that the extra bodies bring for me.

Loosing the 2+ save and the LoS shenanigans that a unit composed entirely of ICs can pull off hurts the most, but I feel like I make up for it with the extra bodies. Especially with so much AP2 or better flying around the battlefield these days. Plus, with the loss of eternal warior, I'm less fearful of the dreaded S10 or other insta-death attacks that come around every now and then when my unit is a bunch of guys with 2W instead of a few guys with 3 or 4W.

I'm not trying to say that Space Wolves are a win-button beatstick that nobody can stand against, but I think we're doing alright. I'm fiercely Fenrisian and dislike taking allies. Even my Culexus (who I felt was necessary with the psychic nonsense going on these days) has been given an appropriately Fenrisian nick name and will be given some wolfy bits before I get around to painting him.

[Frater Cornelius]

Also depends on how :cuss the respective tau and eldar is. There is Triptide players that I wipe the floor with and there are the ones I need my tournament list for.

[NightHowler]

There's no doubt that the skill of your opponent is a huge factor.  And admittedly, most of these games are against guys at my FLGS.  

 

But I can say that I took my 6th ed list to a tournament last year and won over half of my games.  I don't consider myself a great general and I don't expect to take 1st place at the LVO, but I still think space wolves are doing ok.

[Frater Cornelius]

Indeed, and we can consider ourselves lucky not to be gutted like GK or Deldar were.

[casb1965]

I think this thread is anecdotal proof that we are not competitive. 

 

Almost everyone mentions Allies and Knights, and while that may be true for most Imperial armies, its a testament to the weakness of the spacewolf book. Sure, they are solid, well rounded units, but that is not how you win at the top levels (IMO)

 

Wolves are limited by their access to special weapons, and lack of rule bending buffs. They won't be high on any lists without significant portions going to allies, and even then it will be mostly novelty lists.

 

Nice to see this post, as a Gk / Inq. player I felt the same way when those Codices were released, it appears that all the new codices are being written with Imperial Knights as allies in mind (or at least with using allies of some sort)

[Frater Cornelius]

You are mixing up different forms of viability. We can hold our own, we are much better than any GK. We can stand alongside of Codex: SM. But Tau and Eldar will be beyond any codex in 7ed due to GWs policy of cracking down in codex creep.

So we ally to compete with top tables. Top tables is not something every player plays. For your regular FLGS league or smaller tournaments, SW are fine even without allies.

Let me make this clear, no Imperial codex can compete on the top tables without allies as long as eldar and tau keep their codecies.

[tylerw]

 

I think this thread is anecdotal proof that we are not competitive. 

 

Almost everyone mentions Allies and Knights, and while that may be true for most Imperial armies, its a testament to the weakness of the spacewolf book. Sure, they are solid, well rounded units, but that is not how you win at the top levels (IMO)

 

Wolves are limited by their access to special weapons, and lack of rule bending buffs. They won't be high on any lists without significant portions going to allies, and even then it will be mostly novelty lists.

 

Nice to see this post, as a Gk / Inq. player I felt the same way when those Codices were released, it appears that all the new codices are being written with Imperial Knights as allies in mind (or at least with using allies of some sort)

 

I'm not sure that allies being "required" to be competitive at the top levels is an indicator of weakness though, I mean, SW appear to have been given fast attack transports to facilitate stuff like drop pod centurions.  It's built in, apparently, to ally fairly well if you want to (or if it's necessary). It seems more of a recognition of the fact that much of the time players end up allying anyway to address an army's weakness, or a powerful interaction.

I really like the 7th SW codex - it has some obviously powerful units in TWC, who can fail in an overly shooty meta, then less powerful, but still great units as well.  The stormwolf is a nice addition to the army, our troops are pretty great, with the ability to go with high-point, fully upgraded GHers, or extremely cheap blobby assault with BCs (and their various bike/pack upgrade options).

 

Further, we got some dreads that appear to be at least playable.  Our detachments are solid.  My biggest complaint would be that the Champions of Fenris book is mostly garbage.  For so many restrictions in options that people don't do well with at competitive events, they did not give enough bonuses.  If you're trying to motivate me to take this crappy ground-pounderiffic army full of high-point, low-durability figures, you need to give me something really good, like extra wound, or FNP 4+, or give the whole army sweeping advance, or something. Not just minor buffs that aren't really worth the restrictions given that the restrictions cause you to dump a lot of points into uninspiring figures.

[NightHowler]

Immersturm, you make me want to drop my Culexus just to try and prove you wrong!

In February I'll be coming back with some battle reports either way. I may post up some of the better practice games I get in between now and then.

[Frater Cornelius]

Heh, don't worry. I have tried plenty of builds. They worked fine against decent players but they failed against very capable tournament players. Cheese masters from GTs and stuff.

 

As for COF being garbage... nah, I'll save my comments on that one ;)

 

But hey, you know why this conversation will not yield any result? Playstyle, gentlemen, playstyle. I have mine, you have yours. You can not handle mine, I can not handle yours. Deal with it ;)

[Lord Blackwood]

 

  My biggest complaint would be that the Champions of Fenris book is mostly garbage.  

 

I  disagree that the champions of Fenris book is garbage , I find the extra WS on TWC to be very helpful. I  also like the flexability to run 1 HQ 2 Elites ( ironpriests or dreads love me some dreads) have a slew of elite slots left and  then fill out the list however I want.  

[Rune Priest Jbickb]

@tylerw how is CoF restrictive?

 

It allows you to make an army without troops, it bumps your weapon skill on alot of units. Plus you can trigger the benefits for 20 points + an HQ if you for some reason don't want any of the Elite units.

[Frater Cornelius]

WS5 is invaluable with most armies having WS4.

[Jochteas]

Honest question. Do the 5 Blood claws with the storm wolf do anything or do they just ride around in the Storm wolf the entire time?

[Frater Cornelius]

You can disembark to tie up a ranged powerhouse, they can finish off a smaller unit and they can cap. Be creative.

[viddar]

Honest question. Do the 5 Blood claws with the storm wolf do anything or do they just ride around in the Storm wolf the entire time?

It really depends on the list I see the value of it if they grant the stormwolf objective secured, or if they used the available slots. I tend to run mine with ten, I think a full squad is to many points in reserve but ten allows them to accomplish more.

 

On the topic of allies being "required" to be top table competitive, I don't get the anger. There is no penalty for allies its basically an advantage your giving up voluntarily if you don't take them. Tau and Eldar have really good books but Taudar became a phrase because they can ally. Look at top 16 of major tourneys you won't see many solo lists.

[Jochteas]

Well I was only really driving at if he wanted a Stormwolf and took the bloodclaw squad to get it, it would probably be cheaper just to run a CoF group, use his Wolf Priest as the HQ and grab 1 Servitor for 10 and use one you had already, that would satisfy the requirements and your good to go. that'll save you 50 points right there. 

[NightHowler]

@ Jochteas - the LVO this year has a 2 detachment maximum, and my assassin takes up one of those 2.  With a choice between obsec and being able to bring one of my fliers on automatically T2, I chose the Wolves Unleashed.  The two bloodclaw units are basically a troops tax, but the one with the stormwolf as a dedicated transport let me take an extra fast attack unit and outflank that flier on a 4+ since I attach the Iron Priest to them, so that's two purposes right there.  The other squad that doesn't have a dedicated transport will ride in the other flier depending on what my opponent brings.  

 

If I'm up against someone with deepstriking, outflanking, or infiltrating objectives grabbers, they'll hang back since my servitors really aren't designed to fight to hold their objectives.  

 

If my opponent has weak backfield objective holders, they can outflank if I get lucky, or they can ride in the empty stormwolf and disembark when it's safe to assault those weak objective holders.

 

If my opponent has a psycher deathstar, the Culexus will claim that empty stormwolf and then I decide what to do with that squad based on what else might be going on on the table top.

 

So while they're basically a troops tax, I don't ignore them.  They both have versatile and useful roles to play in my list.

 

 

edited to add:

 

I guess you had also asked why I didn't just take the COF detachment and avoid troops altogether.  I'll tell you, that decision was not as easy.  WS5 on my 2 big TWC packs would be soooo sweet.  But I want that second flier, and I need to know 100% that if there's a psycher deathstar on the other side of the table that my Culexus will fly in T2 just as my TWC are getting ready to charge.  If I knew that there wouldn't be anybody at the tournament with a screamerstar, jetseer council, or invisibility shenanigans, I'd drop the Culexus and use Wolves Unleashed for my outflanking fliers, and Champions of Fenris for the WS5 on my TWC - that would be ideal.  But I'm pretty sure that at least 1 person will show up with the Jetseer nonsense or something similar.

[Bloody Legionnaire]

So, as far as competition and unleashed detachments go, are mass amounts of troops no longer a requirement in the 7th edition environment? How beneficial do you using the unbound detachment is in comparison to having objective secured? 

[NightHowler]

I never used mass amounts of troops, so I can't really speak to whether or not that's still a requirement.  

 

And as to whether obsec or cunning of the wolf is a better detachment bonus, it depends entirely on your army and how you plan to play it.  For me and my list, I felt that the benefit of being able to outflank a flier on a 4+, and knowing that at least 1 of those fliers would always be able to come on turn 2 vastly outweighed the benefits of obsec, and just barely outweighed the benefits of WS5 on my thunderwolves.  These were hard decisions and you will need to make them for yourself.  I'm not giving anyone a "net-list" here.  I'm sharing with this community because they all seem like good guys who make their own lists and play the way that they like to play.  I wouldn't normally share my list at all, as I feel like it's a deeply personal thing and everyone should make their own, but I wanted people to know that I think Space Wolves are still a tough army.

[Z00Z]

I never used mass amounts of troops, so I can't really speak to whether or not that's still a requirement.  

 

And as to whether obsec or cunning of the wolf is a better detachment bonus, it depends entirely on your army and how you plan to play it.  For me and my list, I felt that the benefit of being able to outflank a flier on a 4+, and knowing that at least 1 of those fliers would always be able to come on turn 2 vastly outweighed the benefits of obsec, and just barely outweighed the benefits of WS5 on my thunderwolves.  These were hard decisions and you will need to make them for yourself.  I'm not giving anyone a "net-list" here.  I'm sharing with this community because they all seem like good guys who make their own lists and play the way that they like to play.  I wouldn't normally share my list at all, as I feel like it's a deeply personal thing and everyone should make their own, but I wanted people to know that I think Space Wolves are still a tough army.

 

great post, and thanks for sharing.

biggest take-out point for me is the personalisation aspect and the non 'cookie-cutter' nature.

[tylerw]

@tylerw how is CoF restrictive?

 

It allows you to make an army without troops, it bumps your weapon skill on alot of units. Plus you can trigger the benefits for 20 points + an HQ if you for some reason don't want any of the Elite units.

Sorry, I mean the book as a whole, not the 2-3 useful things that you can take from it.  I'm also meaning as a separate publication.  There is not enough in it to really justify it being another book.  They should have just beefed up the SW 7th codex instead of, "Hey, there was this Necron and he underestimated the wolves and here's a few pages of fluff and a few missions based on these mediocre, wiki-like-writeups of these battles we made up to sell a new book."

 

The relic/detachments/formations should have been in the codex, and maybe a bit of the new/extra fluff.  By restrictive, I'm referring primarily to the focus of the book, which is "Here is a bunch of termies + Logan incentives, but you have to take, well, termies, and they have to have this loadout, and blah blah and if Logan dies or if you wanted to take any other loadout, well, you're not fitting the detachment/formation, and you don't get bonuses.  These bonuses aren't that great (in general, yes, WS5 is nice), and the requirements to get them are too specific."

 

Like, Void Claws, okay, in theory I really like this formation, but without giving them any way to charge on the first turn, you're bringing in a load of assault-only dudes who also cannot buy defensive upgrades.  This is what is known as "sitting wolfpups" on Fenris. 

 

Want to get a nice buff to your Dreads?  Okay, sink a ton of points into them for a slight buff, plus, play more than most people would. Want to outflank?  Sure, buy all these HQ/IQs, and if you want another bonus, play Logan, but then you have like 10 points left.  Enjoy.

 

It's not that I am entirely dismissive of these things, but they're too restrictive for what the product is.  Yes, it's got some options, but I guess I'm bothered that this was sold as anything more than a dataslate for $10 or something.

[NightHowler]

@tylerw - formations are always super restrictive.  That's kind of the nature of a formation.  But near the back of the book, after the list of all the formation, is the Champions of Fenris detachment, which is pretty awesome.  It requires no troops, allows you to take up to 6 units of Elites and up to 4 HQ.  I think it's great that it's in a separate book because it adds diversity and options.  Plus, instead of having just one list of relics (what would have happened if they had just "beefed up" the main codex), now we can take a Wolves unleashed detachment from the main codex with relics from that, a Champions of Fenris detachment from the supplement with relics from that, and pick our warlord trait from either one of those sources, or the big rule book.  I'm trying to see what you're saying, but I just don't see it.  Plus, a lot of the formations we have to choose from are pretty cool!  Voidclaws?  Arjac's Shield Brothers?  Brethren of the Fell Handed?  Grimnar's War Council?  These are all awesome formations!

 

Admittedly, though, these are only my opinions, but for what it's worth our opinions definitely differ on the Champions of Fenris book.

 

 

Edited to add:

The Champions of Fenris detachment also gives two of the benefits that the Formations give - +1 WS to Wolf Guard and TWC and reroll 1s in challenges.  I couldn't be happier having these 2 books.  I'm convinced that making it 1 book would have made us much less competitive.

[Sohail187]

Got a 1850 tournament this Sunday gonna be fairly competitive! however I am bringing my trusty ultramarine battle brothers. Managed to win this event last year lets see if the wolves can provide a repeat performance. However its a maelstorm missions and winners are decided by whom ever has the most VP! so hopefully my army has its running shoes on!.

 

Will let you know how i do!! and the type of lists i come up against!