malorn24 Posted October 30, 2014 Share Posted October 30, 2014 Just like the title says. If the big E had picked someone else to finish the Great Crusade. Which Primarch would have actually got the job done right without turning to chaos and why. Now I know this doesn't play for good drama in novels but for arguements sake that I why I purposed the question. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/298675-if-not-horus-then-who/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Atia Posted October 30, 2014 Share Posted October 30, 2014 Sanguinius Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/298675-if-not-horus-then-who/#findComment-3848747 Share on other sites More sharing options...
malorn24 Posted October 30, 2014 Author Share Posted October 30, 2014 Ok why do you say that? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/298675-if-not-horus-then-who/#findComment-3848748 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grotsmasha Posted October 30, 2014 Share Posted October 30, 2014 Probably Sanguinus, he seemed to have the respect of his brothers like Horus, all of the other Primarchs would've found resistance from their brothers. Cheers, Jono Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/298675-if-not-horus-then-who/#findComment-3848749 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Atia Posted October 30, 2014 Share Posted October 30, 2014 'Cause Horus himself said the following: Sanguinius. It should have been him. He has the vision and strength to carry us to victory, and the wisdom to rule once victory is won. For all his aloof coolness, he alone has the Emperor's soul in his blood. Each of us carries part of our father within us, whether it is his hunger for battle, his psychic talent or his determination to succeed. Sanguinius holds it all. It should have been his.. He doesn't fell at Signus, he wouldn't fall on Davin i.m.o. Or maybe Vulcan. And the others? The Lion has an alligiance with a nurgle demon, guilliman built his own empire, dorn hasn't charisma, magnus made a pact with tzeentch, fulgrim fell to slaanesh before the heresy, khan and russ were too wild. Ferrus was "oh, charge wipe, doh!". Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/298675-if-not-horus-then-who/#findComment-3848752 Share on other sites More sharing options...
malorn24 Posted October 30, 2014 Author Share Posted October 30, 2014 Its funny you say that because that quote is what sparked this idea. I know Horus said that but I don't think I agree. Having to hide the rage problem means he would be a slight to alot distracted and once it got out that his kids have flaws then all hell would break loose. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/298675-if-not-horus-then-who/#findComment-3848755 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Disciple of Caliban Sgt Posted October 30, 2014 Share Posted October 30, 2014 I'd say Sanguinus as well. Probably a tie between Dorn and Guilleman next. I'd say the Lion if he could ever become un-anal. But paranoia has got a firm grip. Everyone else seems to have too many issues to make it I think. Just my opinion. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/298675-if-not-horus-then-who/#findComment-3848765 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Castiel Posted October 30, 2014 Share Posted October 30, 2014 Sanguinius, Dorn or Guilliman are the only three that would have had the respect, diplomacy and martial record to sway the others, although Dorn may have struggled to gain acceptance as he doesn't have the people skills of Horus. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/298675-if-not-horus-then-who/#findComment-3848865 Share on other sites More sharing options...
blackoption Posted October 30, 2014 Share Posted October 30, 2014 I think Dorn would have made a better 2nd in charge over being the alternate warmaster. Guilliman and Sanguinus definately have potential, but I can also see Vulkan being in the running (he was found shortly after Fulgrim and Ferrus Mannus). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/298675-if-not-horus-then-who/#findComment-3848871 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Loss Posted October 31, 2014 Share Posted October 31, 2014 'Cause Horus himself said the following: Sanguinius. It should have been him. He has the vision and strength to carry us to victory, and the wisdom to rule once victory is won. For all his aloof coolness, he alone has the Emperor's soul in his blood. Each of us carries part of our father within us, whether it is his hunger for battle, his psychic talent or his determination to succeed. Sanguinius holds it all. It should have been his.. Although, in all fairness, Horus was more than slightly melancholic and far from his normal self when he said that If anything, it illustrates the qualities of Sanguinius, but as we learn in Fear to Tread those are heavily tempered by his faults. Sanguinius is a mirror for Horus in some ways, but he lacks the sheer ambition and confidence of Horus which is a huge part of why he was chosen to be Warmaster and why he was able to fall to Chaos the way he did. Primarchs like Dorn, Gulliman and Sanguinius were all brilliant leaders, like Horus, and in some facets would have been superior, but none of them shared his primarch/legion management skills and intense self belief. I don't think the Horus Heresy would have been possible in the way he was without Horus. Regardless of whether you like him or not, his unique collection of talents, skills & charisma is what forged the position of Warmaster. I don't mean to shoot down theorycrafting (or because I'm obviously a fan of the Warmaster), but I've always believed that the position was basically made for Horus and the Heresy was built around that. Rant over! As for who would have gotten the job done without falling to Chaos...pretty much any of the sane Loyalist primarchs. Guilliman would not have fallen, the Lion would not have fallen, Dorn would not have fallen etc and they all would have done an effective job. Sanguinius could never have been Warmaster because he was riven by self doubt long before the office was brought into being, whereas even Horus only fell apart once the stress of the office was placed upon him. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/298675-if-not-horus-then-who/#findComment-3848903 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Nameless Posted October 31, 2014 Share Posted October 31, 2014 On the other hand, receiving the position of Warmaster from the Emperor, his father, might have actually gotten rid of some of Sanguinius' doubt because, as it seems to me, he would see it as a form of encouragement. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/298675-if-not-horus-then-who/#findComment-3848924 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron Hands Fanatic Posted October 31, 2014 Share Posted October 31, 2014 Ferrus would have had the determination to succeed, and he'd been selected by the Emperor to lead the other Primarchs before, but his lack of diplomacy wouldn't have worked - "Oh, you don't want to do what I say? Let's see how pretty a crater Forgebreaker makes in your skull" Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/298675-if-not-horus-then-who/#findComment-3848968 Share on other sites More sharing options...
carpediem Posted October 31, 2014 Share Posted October 31, 2014 For the sake of logistical competence, Guilliman, for the sake of charisma Sanguinius. The problem is that Sangy is an obvious mutant and Guilliman is broadly loathed by a lot of his brothers. Really the Emperor should have picked three Primarchs for the job, not one. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/298675-if-not-horus-then-who/#findComment-3848969 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conn Eremon Posted October 31, 2014 Share Posted October 31, 2014 Not a single one. Seriously, take away Horus and replace him with someone else, and all you would see is a different sequence of events, a different roster of traitors and loyalists, and inevitably the same Imperium-sundering Heresy. There was a lot to Horus that created the Horus Heresy, that others might have foreseen or overcome. But all that would mean is that it would have made for a different Heresy. As much of an Emperor-lover that I am, it's my utmost belief that the Heresy was an inevitable conclusion to the Great Crusade. Nobody is beyond the corruption of the warp, save perhaps the man in gold himself. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/298675-if-not-horus-then-who/#findComment-3848974 Share on other sites More sharing options...
simison Posted October 31, 2014 Share Posted October 31, 2014 Sanguinius. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/298675-if-not-horus-then-who/#findComment-3848990 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiberius Cato Posted October 31, 2014 Share Posted October 31, 2014 I agree with Cormac, the betrayal is inevitable. If it had been a different antagonist, perhaps guilliman for example, we may still have the legions of old. But we would miss out on the abundant diversity that the Codex Astartes brought to the Imperium of man. The likelihood of divergence from one's legions beliefs would probably by quite rare, there would be no Black Templar, no Flesh Tearers, no Astral Claws,and so much more of the myriad idiosynchrosis of the Astartes of the 41st millenium. All the 'What if...'s' are an interesting topic. The Dornian Heresy, although not canon, shows what a collective of fluff experts believe would happen if the Praetorian had succeeded from the Imperium andd the Corax Coup does the same, but with the Raven as the protagonist. Perhaps eventually we will eventually have an archive of what could have been if any of the primarchs had turned against the Big E, the 18 (20 if you want the extra credit) would be quite the compendium of 'what if...'s' to see. My apologies for the rant! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/298675-if-not-horus-then-who/#findComment-3849017 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother-Chaplain Kage Posted October 31, 2014 Share Posted October 31, 2014 Magnus. He truly understood the dangers of the Warp more than anyone else and would have been a better bulwark against its temptations than any of his brother Primarchs. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/298675-if-not-horus-then-who/#findComment-3849051 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Augustus Posted October 31, 2014 Share Posted October 31, 2014 Magnus. He truly understood the dangers of the Warp more than anyone else and would have been a better bulwark against its temptations than any of his brother Primarchs. Only in regards to his conversation with Logar. Khan thinks he is way overboard. The Night Haunter should have been Warmaster because no one would follow him. I question even the need to have one. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/298675-if-not-horus-then-who/#findComment-3849101 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus Posted October 31, 2014 Share Posted October 31, 2014 Being made Warmaster does not make one turn against the Emperor. If any other Primarch had been made Warmaster, it would still have been the "Horus Heresy". Horus and Lorgar would just have had to work slightly more to get as much support behind their coup. Sanguinius would have made a good Warmaster, if the most important part of that job is to act as a figurehead for the Imperium and hold the respect of the remaining Primarchs. Guilliman would have been a better strategic commander and administrator for the Crusade, but with 18 Space Marine Legions plowing through any kind of rsistance on all fronts, there was not really the need for important strategic decisions. (Almost) any of the Primarchs could have done an adequate job. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/298675-if-not-horus-then-who/#findComment-3849166 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Augustus Posted October 31, 2014 Share Posted October 31, 2014 Well said Legatus. L Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/298675-if-not-horus-then-who/#findComment-3849180 Share on other sites More sharing options...
No Foes Remain Posted October 31, 2014 Share Posted October 31, 2014 Wasn't there a passage in Vengeful Spirit about Horus asking his equerry about who could have lead instead of him and Horus tells him it was Ferrus, I remember the quote being posted somewhere on here but I cannot remember where. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/298675-if-not-horus-then-who/#findComment-3849198 Share on other sites More sharing options...
simison Posted October 31, 2014 Share Posted October 31, 2014 I know the quote you are referring to and their talking about mastery of war. Horus was saying that beside him, Ferrus understood war best. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/298675-if-not-horus-then-who/#findComment-3849267 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Memento Of Prospero Posted October 31, 2014 Share Posted October 31, 2014 Ferrus understood war best, and I believe the title is warmaster. JUST SAYIN' The Emperor did not want an embassador. He did not want someone to parlay with xenos and convert unbeleivers. This was the fault of Horus, he wanted to go above and beyond his mandate, because his ego would not allow him to. Big E wanted someone to take the reigns and finish the compliance crusade. Ferrus would have done just that, as he is a soldier. He cares not for titles and status. He does not question orders, and expects the chain of command to be respected. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/298675-if-not-horus-then-who/#findComment-3849312 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leif Bearclaw Posted October 31, 2014 Share Posted October 31, 2014 Magnus. He truly understood the dangers of the Warp more than anyone else and would have been a better bulwark against its temptations than any of his brother Primarchs. No, he really didn't. That's the kicker at the end of ATS, he had damned his Legions to Tzeentch when he made his deal to halt the flesh change. While Magnus did have more warp knowledge than his brothers, his familiarity with it left him blind to its dangers. While it was a different flavour of arrogance to Horus or Fulgrim, Magnus was amongst the most arrogant of the Primarchs, it deluded him enough to think the warp was his tool to wield without repercussion or consequence. Being made Warmaster does not make one turn against the Emperor. If any other Primarch had been made Warmaster, it would still have been the "Horus Heresy". Horus and Lorgar would just have had to work slightly more to get as much support behind their coup. Sanguinius would have made a good Warmaster, if the most important part of that job is to act as a figurehead for the Imperium and hold the respect of the remaining Primarchs. Guilliman would have been a better strategic commander and administrator for the Crusade, but with 18 Space Marine Legions plowing through any kind of rsistance on all fronts, there was not really the need for important strategic decisions. (Almost) any of the Primarchs could have done an adequate job. Question then. Did Erebus corrupt Horus because he was Horus, or because he was Warmaster? I'd always assumed that the WBs would try their corruption thing on the Warmaster, so if Sanguinius was Warmaster, they'd have tried to corrupt him. Which is why I'd go for Sanguinius, he's most likely to resist the corruption. Whereas I can see Gulliman falling just like Horus. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/298675-if-not-horus-then-who/#findComment-3849382 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hyaenidae Posted October 31, 2014 Share Posted October 31, 2014 Really? I wouldn't be able to see Guilliman fall, personally. Out of curiosity, why do you say that? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/298675-if-not-horus-then-who/#findComment-3849390 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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