If not Horus then who?

[Marshal Rohr]

If anyone but Horus had been made Warmaster it would've made Horus turn faster. Passed over for a command that was always meant to be his would've made Lorgars job much, much easier.

[Conn Eremon]

Really? I wouldn't be able to see Guilliman fall, personally. Out of curiosity, why do you say that?

Everyone is corruptible. Doesn't mean everyone will though. Guilliman, among his other brothers, were all tested according to old lore. But tested how? To determine if their own flaws would march them in willingly? Guilliman would never. To see if pawns could be played just right, and trap him? Guilliman would never.

 

If the Ruinous Powers came to the fore, united, like they did with Lorgar, Horus, others? Guilliman would never stand a chance. It would just be done differently.

 

I mean, the old lore of the Death Guard had a god stop them cold in the Warp, and simply break them.

[Leif Bearclaw]

Really? I wouldn't be able to see Guilliman fall, personally. Out of curiosity, why do you say that?

Admittedly, I haven't read much of Gulliman's direct portrayal in the series, so I'm only going off reputation and my reaction to what I've heard.

 

However, this is my take on it. Horus fully deserved the accolades he received during the GC, despite some (arguably fully justified) arrogance, he was a faithful son. Horus only fell because of rather extreme circumstances set up by Erebus and the Word Bearers (arguments about how well the fall itself was written notwithstanding). Prior to that, to question the loyalty of Horus was anathema. Remember how Dorn reacted to Garro's news in Eisenstein?

 

I don't see anything in Gullimans character that would produce a different result if he was subjected to the ordeal Horus experienced. Gulliman was an excellent general, administrator and undeniably loyal to the Emperor, but so was Horus.

 

Sanguinius on the other hand, was the Paladin. The true exemplar of everything the Emperor wanted the Primarchs to be. If one of the 18 could have withstood the process used on Horus, The Angel would be the one I'd pick (wearing my fanboy hat, there's another couple that I think would probably have remained loyal, but they weren't in the running for Warmaster).

 

But that's just my impression.

[Legatus]

Horus was quite proud, and kind of a glory hound. His ambition was ultimately what allowed Chaos to turn Horus against the Emperor. The position of Warmaster was still not enough.

 

That same avenue of approach would not work with Guilliman. He does not desire the most powerful of positions, usually enacted reforms for the benefit of the populace, reduced his own forces which at one point  were as powerful as the rest of the loyal Legions combined to a single Chapter like everyone else, and after the Scouring resigned from the position of Lord Commander of the Imperium to command only his own Chapter for the remainder of his days.

[blackoption]

Horus was quite proud, and kind of a glory hound. His ambition was ultimately what allowed Chaos to turn Horus against the Emperor. The position of Warmaster was still not enough.

 

That same avenue of approach would not work with Guilliman. He does not desire the most powerful of positions, usually enacted reforms for the benefit of the populace, reduced his own forces which at one point  were as powerful as the rest of the loyal Legions combined to a single Chapter like everyone else, and after the Scouring resigned from the position of Lord Commander of the Imperium to command only his own Chapter for the remainder of his days.

Also, he shows his hesitance to take power in UE.  He is aware that power corrupts, and while he is comfortable as a leader, is aware the danger that goes with high amounts of power.

[daveNYC]

If anyone but Horus had been made Warmaster it would've made Horus turn faster. Passed over for a command that was always meant to be his would've made Lorgars job much, much easier.

 

But it would have made the Heresy that much more difficult since Horus wouldn't be able to use his overall command of the crusade to send the loyalists off to inconvenient places or set things up so that his allies were conveniently nearby when the request for forces to attack Isstvaan went out.

[Wade Garrett]

There's an arrogance in Roboute as well. He's more in control of it than many of his brothers, but it's there nontheless.

 

Look at the passage in Unremembered Empire where he talks about the Scattering of the Primarchs as a test.

 

I for one cannot read that without a backbeat of "Look at me, and my 500 worlds! Did I not pass with flying colors?"

 

And then there's the notion of the man who landed in a paradise, was adopted by its supreme ruler, and grew to manhood in a palace speaking of the tests he passed. I can easily conjecture what Primarchs like Corax, Russ, the Lion, Ferrus, Mortarion, and even Fulgrim might have said in regard's to Rob's theory if he ever shared it with them.

[Legatus]

There wasn't really any special effort involved in the "500 worlds" (ugh!). Those are just worlds who for one reason or another joined Ultramar after the Ultramarines Legion under Guilliman had started conquering worlds in that area. In total the Ultramarines would have conquered worlds in the five digit region, as would have most of the other Legions. The Space Wolves would have conquered 10.000+ worlds as well, and if 500 of the worlds surrounding Fenris would have volunteered to join into a massive conglomerate under Russ' control, then the Space Wolves would have had their own "500 worlds" as well.

 

What was more of an accomplishment was to rule over a stable realm of 9 worlds before the Emperor had even found Guilliman and given him a Space Marine Legion. But even then there was not as much effort involved, since those 9 world had already had contact before Guilliman even took control over Macragge. Guilliman had pacified the marauding tribes of Macragge, and then created a stable realm with the surrounding worlds, but he did not have to individually conquer those 9 worlds by force.

 

But then why would Dan Abnett be aware of all this. Or even care. He's Dan Abnett.

 

At least in Know No Fear he had described Guilliman as feeling uneasy for how much he had outperformed the other Primarchs, and he almost felt like he had to excuse his success with the others. Of course, he also actively tried bring his brothers up to his standards by teaching them what he had learned (as well as being willing to learn from them), but not all responded well to that.

[Brother Ambroz]

I think sanguinus or fulgrim, possibly guilliman as well would've made the best warmasters aside from horus. I don't think the lion would've been a very good warmaster because although he is great with tactics he isn't the greatest leader of men and that would've been his downfall.

[simison]

I'm curious. I've yet to hear anyone put Fulgrim's name forward. 

[Wade Garrett]

At least in Know No Fear he had described Guilliman as feeling uneasy for how much he had outperformed the other Primarchs, and he almost felt like he had to excuse his success with the others. Of course, he also actively tried bring his brothers up to his standards by teaching them what he had learned (as well as being willing to learn from them), but not all responded well to that.

No, in UE it states that the 500 worlds were all originally part of the interstellar realm of Ultramar before the Age of Strife, that Konor's great dream was to re-unify them all, and, if I recall correctly, that Guilliman had already completed or almost completed said unification before the Emperor found him and united him with his Legion.

 

And "Guilliman sometimes felt uneasy about how he was so much better than all his brothers, so he tried to teach them a better way, namely his, so they could all be brought up to his standards"...

 

This isn't exactly a booming refutation of the idea that the Battle King occasionally grappled with the sin of pride.

[blackoption]

 

At least in Know No Fear he had described Guilliman as feeling uneasy for how much he had outperformed the other Primarchs, and he almost felt like he had to excuse his success with the others. Of course, he also actively tried bring his brothers up to his standards by teaching them what he had learned (as well as being willing to learn from them), but not all responded well to that.

No, in UE it states that the 500 worlds were all originally part of the interstellar realm of Ultramar before the Age of Strife, that Konor's great dream was to re-unify them all, and, if I recall correctly, that Guilliman had already completed or almost completed said unification before the Emperor found him and united him with his Legion.

 

And "Guilliman sometimes felt uneasy about how he was so much better than all his brothers, so he tried to teach them a better way, namely his, so they could all be brought up to his standards"...

 

This isn't exactly a booming refutation of the idea that the Battle King occasionally grappled with the sin of pride.

 

 

I would say Guilliman does have pride, but he is aware of it and its dangers.  There were reasons he did not just crown himself regent, both political and personal.  In Know No Fear, Guilliman is extremely confident in all he does.  He lists himself in the top five fighters of the Imperium, he confidently manages the space battle as well as its aftermath.  But in UE, while he retains his confidence, you see where his human flaws are.  His desire to implictly trust all his sons gets him in the sites of the Alpha Legion headhunter team for example.  He admits that he looked up and was a little intimidated by the Lion and the first legion.  But what I think is the key difference between Guilliman and Horus, is that Guilliman is aware and willing to admit flaws.  In the scene where he mourns his father's computer is one where this happens,  his dicussions with the Lion about Imperium Secoundus is another (specifically showing the room with the legion banners).  I can think of no example where Horus ever admitted his own shortcomings.

[daveNYC]

Horus does confess his fears in (I think) False Gods when he's talking with the Rememberancer.  I don't think we hear him say much on the subject to his brothers, but that's somewhat expected since we only see him as Warmaster.  

[Legatus]

And "Guilliman sometimes felt uneasy about how he was so much better than all his brothers, so he tried to teach them a better way, namely his, so they could all be brought up to his standards"...

 

This isn't exactly a booming refutation of the idea that the Battle King occasionally grappled with the sin of pride.

 

 

Under Guilliman's command the Ultramarines were objectively the most effective Space Marine Legion in terms of the progression of the Great Crusade and the creation of a stable and productive realm. I am not sure pretenting it wasn't so would be required of Guilliman so as to not appear arrogant. As far as he was concerned, all of the Legions could have and should have performed just as well. The same cannot be said for Primarchs like Fulgrim or Horus, who actively sought to outperform and stand taller than the others.

 

 

In Know No Fear, Guilliman is extremely confident in all he does.  He lists himself in the top five fighters of the Imperium

 

 

Wasn't that one of his subordinates?

[Wade Garrett]

Under Guilliman's command the Ultramarines were objectively the most effective Space Marine Legion in terms of the progression of the Great Crusade and the creation of a stable and productive realm.

 

Won fewer battles than the Luna Wolves, Dark Angels, and Space Wolves.

 

Fewer battle honors than the Imperial Fists.

 

"Objectively the best Legion."

 

Gee, I wonder where people get the idea the Xlll in general and Guilliman in particular were so full of themselves that they had to custom make their helmets to get their swollen heads into them.

[blackoption]

Fewer battles but most worlds compliant.  Only the later crusade Word Bearers rivaled the Ultramarines in number of worlds brought into the Imperium.

 

The Ultramarines were as much as world builders as they were world destroyers.  The Imperial fists built forts than moved on.  The Luna Wolves let other legions (ala Iron Warriors) garrison their conquests. 

 

There are many object ways you could define best legion. Luna wolves and Space wolves may have been better warriors for the crusade, but the Ultramarines were the best soldiers of the crusade.

 

Also, lets not let this devolve into the legion smack talk thread.  Its about the Primarch character traits and flaws, not legion bashing.

[Wade Garrett]

"Most battles won" is a flawed metric than be picked at in many ways (if two or more Legions are engaged, do we count the victory for both of them? The one with more forces present? The first to engage the enemy?) but so is "most worlds claimed".

 

In theory, all that takes is landing a single Astartes on an airless, lifeless mass of sufficient size, sticking an aquila banner in the dirt, and whoo hoo! Chalk up another one for "objectively the best Legion". We're number one! We're number one!

 

But if you want to discuss why Guilliman wouldn't have been a good Warmaster, then fine.

 

He wasn't very good at dealing with his brothers as equals. There were a few he looked up (Horus and the Lion) and a great many that he looked down on, to the extent that he was willing to bad mouth them behind their backs to random Sergeants awaiting court martial. (Lorgar, Alpharius, and Leman Russ, for a start.)  

 

Horus, on the other hand...he was able to handle even his more temperamental brothers like the Khan, Mortarion and Konrad Curze. He was able to adjust his tactics and strategies so that their idiosyncrasies became strengths in his battles.

 

Roboute would have been far more likely to demand they change to themselves to suit his plans, which would have gone over about like a lead balloon.

[jeremy1391]

If Dorn was more politically inclined and not so brutally honest he would have made a Great Warmaster.... But calling out your brothers for their weaknesses tends to not make you friends.... (Curze and his insanity, Perturabonot able to break the walls of the palace etc.)

 

If dorn had the charisma of Horus he would have been the obvious choice.

[Wade Garrett]

Ummm...what?

 

I mean, if Konrad Curze had Horus's charisma, Dorn's loyalty, Jonson's tactical genius, Guilliman's logistical genius, and wasn't completely wearing his underwear on his head gibbering insane, he would have been an obvious pick for Warmaster.

[Conn Eremon]

How do we know he didn't already have all that, we just couldn't see it because he was banana-hammock headgear insane?

[Captain Nameless]

To me the political acumen would be more important to the position of warmaster than strategic skill. The job is essentially to keep everybody working together.

People like Dwight Eisenhower and George Washington were not the greatest military minds of the era, though they certainly weren't slouches either, but Washington kept his army together through shortages of supplies and a brutal winter; and Eisenhower organized the armed forces of multiple countries.

This would count out militarily brilliant but less diplomatic primarchs like Guiliman, Dorn, the Lion, and Alpharius/Omegeon.

[Legatus]

 

Under Guilliman's command the Ultramarines were objectively the most effective Space Marine Legion in terms of the progression of the Great Crusade and the creation of a stable and productive realm.

 

Won fewer battles than the Luna Wolves, Dark Angels, and Space Wolves.

 

Fewer battle honors than the Imperial Fists.

 

"Objectively the best Legion."

 

Gee, I wonder where people get the idea the Xlll in general and Guilliman in particular were so full of themselves that they had to custom make their helmets to get their swollen heads into them.

 

 

I added an emphasis that was perhaps missed. I don't think there is any contention in the observation that the Ultramarines conquered the most worlds, and the worlds they conquered were generally the most stable and productive (and often are to this day). The purpose of the Great Crusade was not to amass as big as possible a number of "victories", nor to collect as many "battle honours" as possible. The purpose was to unite the lost human worlds into one huge realm.

 

The point in this is not that Guilliman would therefore have made a good warmaster. I had adressed that in an earlier post. This was just replying to claims that Guilliman acknowledging his achievements and then trying to share his means of getting there with his brothers should be interpreted as proud or arrogant.

 

 

He wasn't very good at dealing with his brothers as equals. There were a few he looked up (Horus and the Lion) and a great many that he looked down on, to the extent that he was willing to bad mouth them behind their backs to random Sergeants awaiting court martial. (Lorgar, Alpharius, and Leman Russ, for a start.)

 

 

Considering how many of his brothers Guilliman openly confronted about perceived shortcomings (including Angron and Horus), I don't think it is fair to characterize his opinions as being voiced "behind their backs". He was generally very open with his critique.

[Wade Garrett]

I was thinking mainly of the scene in "Know No Fear" where he's trying to be friendly to Lorgar over the vox after that little conversation he had with Thiel...but you're right, he was willing to be candid with Angron and Alpharius.

[Legatus]

Well, last time Guilliman tried speaking frankly with Lorgar he did not take it so well... I believe a maul was involved.

[lokkorex]

I'd say top-pick sanguinius.

 

Secondly the lion, IF he could work on his social skills for a bit.