If not Horus then who?

[Raktra]

Imagine the other names that'd have to have been considered for the Heresy.

The El'Johnson Escapade
The Fulgrim Farce
The Perturabo Peril
The Jaghatai Jumble
The Russ Runabout
The Dorn Dun-goofed
The Curze Kerfuffle
The Sanguinius Slip-up
The Ferrus F.U.B.A.R.
The Angron AAAAAGH
The Guilliman Gambit
The Mortarion Mess
The Magnus Mind:cuss
The Lorgar Lah-dee-dah
The Vulkan Viewpoint
The Corax Cock-up
The Alpharius Ah-God-Who-The-Hell-Even-Knows?

[Visitor13]

I'm curious. I've yet to hear anyone put Fulgrim's name forward. 

 

Fulgrim's written quite awkwardly. On the one hand you've got his cool-headed reorganisation and revitalization of Chemos. On the other hand, suddenly he turns into this puffed up dandy because whatever. So the Chemos version of Fulgrim would have done a good job of being Warmaster.

[daveNYC]

To me the political acumen would be more important to the position of warmaster than strategic skill. The job is essentially to keep everybody working together.

People like Dwight Eisenhower and George Washington were not the greatest military minds of the era, though they certainly weren't slouches either, but Washington kept his army together through shortages of supplies and a brutal winter; and Eisenhower organized the armed forces of multiple countries.

 

 

I think that Eisenhower is probably the best real world example we could have of a Warmaster.  Running the Great Crusade was relatively similar to the invasion of Europe in that the grand high muckity-muck would be spending a lot of time trying to make a whole bunch of giant egos work together.

 

Picking the warmaster meant picking one primarch to tell all the other primarchs what to do.  That means you had to pick a guy who people either would support in that role, or someone that they could at least accept (if not actually like) in that role.  The warmaster couldn't be someone who had Charisma as a dump stat.

[Marshal Rohr]

 

 

To me the political acumen would be more important to the position of warmaster than strategic skill. The job is essentially to keep everybody working together.

People like Dwight Eisenhower and George Washington were not the greatest military minds of the era, though they certainly weren't slouches either, but Washington kept his army together through shortages of supplies and a brutal winter; and Eisenhower organized the armed forces of multiple countries.

 

I think that Eisenhower is probably the best real world example we could have of a Warmaster. Running the Great Crusade was relatively similar to the invasion of Europe in that the grand high muckity-muck would be spending a lot of time trying to make a whole bunch of giant egos work together.

 

Picking the warmaster meant picking one primarch to tell all the other primarchs what to do. That means you had to pick a guy who people either would support in that role, or someone that they could at least accept (if not actually like) in that role. The warmaster couldn't be someone who had Charisma as a dump stat.

Horus didn't have a Stalin equivalent literally throw bodies in front of bullets to drain Germany's resources like Ike did. Ike wasn't exactly charismatic, which made him the best option as supreme commander. Sure he bumbled his way through the politics of winning on the Western Front, but ultimately it came down to the fact Russia didn't give a :cuss about casualties and would have drowned Germany in machete wielding conscripts if they had to. The biggest egos of Patton and Monty were simply to armor commanders genital measuring in a way that probably compares best to Dorn and Perturabo, but from the lore we know they were easier to handle than Angron and Kurze, who have no real world equivalents.

 

Edit: hopefully no one takes this assessment personally as an insult against their 'team' during the war.

[Icarus1138]

Let's run down the list of Primarchs that could have expected consideration for the role of Warmaster, in no particular order.

 

The Lion: Head of the 1st, military genius, etc. His lack of diplomatic skills has been mentioned but far more worrisome is his seeming inability to properly judge people. He seemed to need his advisor's help in deciding if someone else could be trusted, was insanely suspicious of Luther when he seemingly didn't need to be (Luther turned only after decades of neglect, I bet better treatment would see him stay loyal) and was fooled in person by Perturabo, who I think we can all agree wasn't a master of deception. A Warmaster that can't delegate to competent people is no Warmaster at all. His loyalty is also a little more shaky than would be preferred, along the lines of the Khan.

 

Ferrus Manus: He's on the list because he's one of the most veteran Primarchs, as well as being one of the few other than Horus to regularly command other Primarchs and legions in battle. His loyalty was also solid, as he didn't waver even in the face of pressure from brothers he was very close to. Despite some poor writing in certain places, he's been shown to have quite a bit of command skill as well. All that being said, he didn't have the personality to inspire the way that others could, and was too cold and intolerant to really do the job well.

 

Guilliman: Likely the second-best choice, he could have done the job well-ish. That said, I think we still would have seen a rebellion under his watch because there are some brothers that he would not have been able (or inclined) to win the respect of. It's entirely likely we still would have seen Horus leading a rebellion against Warmaster Roboute.

 

Dorn: Loyal and a skilled general. Not nearly flexible enough for the job. He's really the only one here we've seen handle the job, as after the Heresy began he picked up the role by default. I think we've seen a number of loyal Primarchs handle the sudden chaos (pun not intended) slightly better than he did.

 

Sanguinius: The best choice, though he'd be leading by inspiration rather than strategic genius. I think that a Great Crusade under his watch would have been a more idealistic and harmonious campaign, keeping the ideals it had under the Emperor. He's also likely the only choice that would have seen Horus' acceptance. That said, he wasn't a general or warlord on par with Horus, Guilliman, or the Lion. I'd expect that a crusade under his command would have been a slower advance with more strategic setbacks than occurred under Horus.

 

Angron: I'm kidding.

[depthcharge12]

Well, in someone else taking the title as Warmaster, it would still result in the Horus Heresy due to Horus' ambition. He'd probably still be championed as Chaos' leader.

[Castiel]

Well, in someone else taking the title as Warmaster, it would still result in the Horus Heresy due to Horus' ambition. He'd probably still be championed as Chaos' leader.

Without poking from Chaos I actually, although this is just my own feeling, don't think Horus would have led a rebellion, especially if if had been Sanguinius as Warmaster instead of him. He's ambitious, yes, but pre-Davin Horus I think would have accepted being passed over with grace in public, even if in private he would have been smarting at being passed over.

[Leif Bearclaw]

 

Well, in someone else taking the title as Warmaster, it would still result in the Horus Heresy due to Horus' ambition. He'd probably still be championed as Chaos' leader.

Without poking from Chaos I actually, although this is just my own feeling, don't think Horus would have led a rebellion, especially if if had been Sanguinius as Warmaster instead of him. He's ambitious, yes, but pre-Davin Horus I think would have accepted being passed over with grace in public, even if in private he would have been smarting at being passed over.

 

I'm not sure if he would've been smarting tbh, if his 'deathbed' confession on Davin is to be believed. It appears he genuinely thought Sanguinius was the best of them, plus the pair was really close (as is mentioned during the War of Murder), so would not have objected  to serving under his brother.

[Castiel]

 

I'm not sure if he would've been smarting tbh, if his 'deathbed' confession on Davin is to be believed. It appears he genuinely thought Sanguinius was the best of them, plus the pair was really close (as is mentioned during the War of Murder), so would not have objected  to serving under his brother.

I'd agree, probably should have said "might" rather than would.

[malorn24]

I think Dorn. The title of warmaster was not to build an empire it was to conquer the galaxy. And I think Dorn would have been tenacious enough to do it. And yet respectful enough to have his brothers fight with him. Aside from the two clinically insane Primarchs I think the rest would have honored the Big E and followed him.

[Ishagu]

Conquer is a narrow way to look at the Crusade - It was to unite manking first and foremost.

[Wade Garrett]

Conquer is a narrow way to look at the Crusade - It was to unite manking first and foremost.

"For each time I wage war against worlds that threaten the Imperium's advance, there comes another time when I am told to conquer peaceful worlds that wish only to be left alone. I am told to destroy whole civilizations and call it liberation. I am told to demand millions of men and women from these new worlds, to make them take up arms in the Emperor's hordes, and I am told to call this a tithe, or recruitment, because we are too scared of the truth. We refuse to call it slavery."

-Angron, Primarch of the Legio Astartes Xll, World Eaters

 

If you want to imagine the overall goal of the Great Crusade, imagine a golden boot marked with an aquila stomping on a human face, forever.

[Flint13]

What about the constant genocidal campaigns against Xenos races?

[Loesh]

 

Conquer is a narrow way to look at the Crusade - It was to unite manking first and foremost.

"For each time I wage war against worlds that threaten the Imperium's advance, there comes another time when I am told to conquer peaceful worlds that wish only to be left alone. I am told to destroy whole civilizations and call it liberation. I am told to demand millions of men and women from these new worlds, to make them take up arms in the Emperor's hordes, and I am told to call this a tithe, or recruitment, because we are too scared of the truth. We refuse to call it slavery."

-Angron, Primarch of the Legio Astartes Xll, World Eaters

 

If you want to imagine the overall goal of the Great Crusade, imagine a golden boot marked with an aquila stomping on a human face, forever.

 

 

What are you talking about? people were only destroyed because they resisted, the great crusade was clearly about peace.

 

Just look at the Diasporex.

[Ishagu]

I wouldn't quote Angron too much, he had a lot of issues and his mind was clouded...

[mc warhammer]

on two tangents:

 

chaos did test and tempt almost all the primarchs but it didn't really try very hard with the ones we know as loyal. they were almost an afterthought, while the 9 traitors were heavily planned.

 

fulgrim from the IA might have been a contender for warmaster. the fulgrim in the HH novels? not a chance.

[Legatus]

chaos did test and tempt almost all the primarchs but it didn't really try very hard with the ones we know as loyal. they were almost an afterthought, while the 9 traitors were heavily planned.

 

 

That is not what most Chaos Codices want us to believe:

 

"But the forces of Chaos were not quite so easily beaten. They whispered to the Primarchs from the warp, disturbing their dreams with promises of power, appealing to their pride, their martial prowess, and their courage. No single Primarch was wholly resistant to these unspoken temptations. The character of each was sorely tested, and fully half of them failed that test."

 

That is from the 2nd Edition Codex Chaos, p. 8, but it is repeated almost verbatim in the 4th Edition Codex Chaos Space Marines on p. 12 and the 6th Edition Codex Chaos Space Marines on p. 9.

[malorn24]

 

 

Conquer is a narrow way to look at the Crusade - It was to unite manking first and foremost.

"For each time I wage war against worlds that threaten the Imperium's advance, there comes another time when I am told to conquer peaceful worlds that wish only to be left alone. I am told to destroy whole civilizations and call it liberation. I am told to demand millions of men and women from these new worlds, to make them take up arms in the Emperor's hordes, and I am told to call this a tithe, or recruitment, because we are too scared of the truth. We refuse to call it slavery."

-Angron, Primarch of the Legio Astartes Xll, World Eaters

 

If you want to imagine the overall goal of the Great Crusade, imagine a golden boot marked with an aquila stomping on a human face, forever.

 

 

What are you talking about? people were only destroyed because they resisted, the great crusade was clearly about peace.

 

Just look at the Diasporex.

 

 

slightly off topic but this is actually something that swirls around as you read and re-read the HH novels. At the end of False Gods when the Techno whatever surrenders that statement that was read was actually compelling. And I paraphrase "We did not wage this war for self gains or even honor. We fought because we wanted our freedom and what sane man would not want that" or something similar. The crusade was most difinitley to CONQUER the galaxy. if it was not then when a expedition fleet ran across a human world that had no desire to join the Imperium they would left them alone. ILLUMINATION was a fancy word that covered over the word CONQUER.

[Marshal Rohr]

Conquest is all about power consolidation. You have to consolidate power and institution build before you have peace. Assimilation can only be performed on the willing, you have to kill the unwilling and re-educate their kids.

[Legatus]

The crusade was most difinitley to CONQUER the galaxy. if it was not then when a expedition fleet ran across a human world that had no desire to join the Imperium they would left them alone.

 

 

I think GW should emphasize more that, if left unchecked, a single rogue psyker can drag his entire world down to hell (quite literally). It seems a lot of people keep forgetting that when declaring what a power hungry jerk the Emperor was.

[malorn24]

Oh I don't buy into the power hungry jerk thing. I am just saying that it was a CONQUEST not a door to door pamphlet spreading excursion. Although the image of some one blowing up your house for your own good because you didn't agree with them that in may be dangerous to build your house in tornedo alley is kind of funny.

[mc warhammer]

 

chaos did test and tempt almost all the primarchs but it didn't really try very hard with the ones we know as loyal. they were almost an afterthought, while the 9 traitors were heavily planned.

 

That is not what most Chaos Codices want us to believe:

 

"But the forces of Chaos were not quite so easily beaten. They whispered to the Primarchs from the warp, disturbing their dreams with promises of power, appealing to their pride, their martial prowess, and their courage. No single Primarch was wholly resistant to these unspoken temptations. The character of each was sorely tested, and fully half of them failed that test."

That is from the 2nd Edition Codex Chaos, p. 8, but it is repeated almost verbatim in the 4th Edition Codex Chaos Space Marines on p. 12 and the 6th Edition Codex Chaos Space Marines on p. 9.

understood. i'm working off the hh novels. the loyalists basically get asked "wanna come along?"

[Augustus]

Well.

Chaos was allied with Horus. Horus knew all of his brothers. Horus knew them very well.

 

Chaos wanted Sang. Horus didn't.

Horus wanted Ferrus.

Horus wanted Magnud out of the way. Chaos had other plans.

Through this we get that both Horus and Chaos knew which of the brothers they had a good shot at corrupting. Sometimes they didn't aggree.

 

Horus is the master of broken monsters for a reason.

[blackoption]

Isn't there a short story where Horus muses that he wishes he had a number of the loyalist primarchs at his side instead of those who joined him?  The Khan for Fulgrim or Corrax for Alpharius or something like that?

[Raktra]

Isn't there a short story where Horus muses that he wishes he had a number of the loyalist primarchs at his side instead of those who joined him?  The Khan for Fulgrim or Corrax for Alpharius or something like that?

There's a quote from something (don't ask me specifics, I'm new to BL) where he talks to Ferrus's skull wishing he had something like "strategists and angels over monsters and madmen". That's not exact though.