Nasty nasty Nids

[Hear da Lamentation]

How about this fur a nasty list to face (1500 points). My friend has come up with it in response to the TWC threat

 

2 flyrants devourer cannonsx2

 

Tervigon

 

2 venomthropes

 

Zoanthrope

 

2 shooty carni flexes (devourer cannons all round)

 

50 (yes 50) devil gaunts ( 2 grps of 20 and 1 of 10)

 

For the uninitiated that is 150 BS4 s4 range 18" shots from the gaunts and 48 bs4 twin linked s6 range 24" shots from flyrants and Carni's.

 

HOW am I going to deal with that :)

 

My army is as already stated round here

WGBL TW ra SS ks fc

4 x TWC 2ss 1pf

4 x TWC 2ss 1pf

 

Storm wolf

5 termies cplx5 2ss 3paxe

Drop pod

 

10 GH 2pg PL cpl ss

Drop pod

 

Blizzdread

Drop pod

[Wulfgar Ironmane]

That is a lot of shooting.. Wich TWC do not like at all with 3+.  Hell even termies will die to that much dakka.
What about tanks? I am not really updated on the current nids, but str 6 will be hard pressed to kill predators and such.
Also maybe a few flamer will help thin out the big blobs.

[knife&fork]

Aren't most of those shots BS 3 rather than BS 4?

[Baulder]

Aye, land raider redeemer time. Or that flamer predator

[Donkalleone]

My idea would be an Ulrik , but hell i dont know he would fit in.

A Murderfang nicht be better than a blizzdread . lasty, Like evryone said high armor tanks

[Hear da Lamentation]

Thanks guys. Tanks would indeed do the best. Anything AT13 breaks the army I just listed. BUT I don't plan on tailoring my army ! The above is what I have chosen for my "all comers" with my mates.

 

Given that ... what advice?

[Hear da Lamentation]

I actually wonder how Immers armies would stand up to this. And at only 1500.

 

Gravs aren't going to be much use. And getting into combat is going to be .... interesting :)

[Baulder]

Maybe ulrik with a couple of LF squads at the back. His unit with flakk and toast the flyrants early. Pref enemy + monster hunter. You should be able to out range the MCs

[Chaplain Otho]

Devilgaunts and Carnifexes are both BS3, more importantly devourers are only range 18, ok they are assault weapons so can move and shoot but still you have the range advantage.

Other point is that your opponent will bubblewrap his important stuff probably putting you out of rapid fire plasma range of his big monsters so your drop pods won't be very effective.

 

I think you need to mech up with land raiders and whirlwinds and stormwings/fangs to blunt most of his shooting or as Baulder has suggested take Ulrik for preferred enemy and monster hunter and play the range game with long fangs and possibly sniper scouts then counter attack with TWC.

 

I would ignore the shooty ones in favour of the synapse and the Venomthropes for the first couple of turns.   

 

 

Also depending o mission spread out the objectives to prevent him clumping his whole army up, divide and conquer.

[Frater Cornelius]

Definitely a Redeemer to kill all that Gaunt spam.

 

Dealing with the Flyrants will be darn tricky though. Sicaran does a decent job, as do allied Hydras. SW have little in Terms of AA. You could try a Stormwolf, but I am not sure how long it will live with all the S6 spam and vector strikes.

[Toxichobbit]

No offense to your friend, but that isn't a nasty Tyranid list. The only really nasty thing in the list is the winged Hive Tyrants.

Firstly, it's Unbound as he has three HQ choices (the two Hive Tyrants and the Tervigon) in one detachment. It would be very easy for your friend to fix this and make it Battle Forged, but as this isn't a board for Tyranid tactics I'll leave him to figure that one out. Take advantage of this by always going for objectives, your Grey Hunters and Blood Claws will always score no matter how many Gaunts he puts onto objectives (until he re-arranges his army list to make it Battle Forged, of course).

Secondly, it's criminally short on Synapse for a list that size. One Zoanthrope on it's own will vanish in no time. That leaves the Tervigon and the Hive Tyrants. Depending on how he uses the Hive Tyrants they could die quickly or stay around and hold the list together. Ideally you want him to over-extend the Hive Tyrants to allow you to deal with them when they're out of range of either of the Venomthropes - winged Hive Tyrants inside a Venomthrope's Spore Cloud and using Jink are stupidly difficult to kill. I can't remember the maths, but it was something like 80+ melta-gun shots or over 300 bolter shots to take one down. If you can stop them boosting their Jink save with Spore Cloud then it's a lot easier to ground them and finish them off. Tempt them out with juicy targets, preferably on turn 2 before his ground forces can get close to you.

50 Termagants with Devourer's is a really bad Troops selection. For those points he could have had 50 Termagants and 40 Hormagaunts, or 100 Termagants, or 20 Termagants plus 10 Devourer armed Termagants and 40 Hormagaunts, etc. You get the idea. Basically, Hormagaunts and Termagants work because they are cheap and (usually) Fearless, but with his lack of Synapse and the fact that he's spent 8 points per model on T3 6+ save Termagants, he's going to struggle. As a Tyranid player I can tell you that those Termagants will die very quickly, just as quickly as if they were 4pt basic Termagants. The only thing keeping them on the board is the Venomthrope's Spore Cloud + cover combination. Take advantage of his expensive flimsy troops by stacking ignore cover weapons. An allied Astra Millitarum Wyvern, Legion of the Damned. allied Sternguard/Thunderfire Cannon, flamers of various varieties, Whirlwind, psychic support etc will all work.

The Tervigon - ignoring the fact that his Termagant brood structure makes it a HQ and makes the army Unbound rather than Battle Forged, it's also one of only four Synapse. The Zoanthrope is easy to kill unless it hides from LoS, which means that it's highly likely the Tervigon will be in close proximity to a lot of Termagants. Take advantage of it's Synaptic backlash rule and prioritise it as a target. If you can kill it within range of all three Termagant units then there's a good chance that it's death will take out the majority of his (expensive) Termagants.

He's very very reliant on those two Venomthropes to keep his army alive. Without them he looses access to the Spore Cloud ability which is giving his army such a good cover save. If you can't get lots of Ignore Cover attacks, then try to focus those Venomthropes down as quickly as possible.

The Zoanthrope isn't much of a threat, but it is a very flimsy Synapse creature (plus a source of Warp Charges). If you get the opportunity, get rid of it. Because of it's invulnerable save, units with lots of shots will do the trick. Grey Hunter bolt guns, Predator Destructor's etc. Don't waste high strength weapons trying to Instant Kill it, the 3+ Invulnerable needs to be defeated through weight of fire rather than big hits. Remember it only has two wounds and it is unlikely to get benefits from the Venomthropes (it's 3+ Invulnerable being the equal to most cover saves even with Spore Cloud boosting them) so you don't need to kill the Venomthrops before targeting it.

If he assaults you, make sure your in cover. Only the Hive Tyrants and Carnifex have access to assault grenades (and it's an upgrade they have to buy). Given that he's taken a pure ranged army, I doubt he's spent points on giving his Tyrant/Carnifex assault grenades. Having power fists/thunder hammers in cover will deal with those Carnifex if they assault without the assault grenade upgrade, as you'll strike in the same initiative step. Failing that, all your infantry have Krak Grenades to wound them on a 4+ - don't forget this!. If he camps at 18" and shoots instead, assault him. Carnifex without close combat weapons are not scary in assault. Most of their assault strength is tied into having close combat weapons (for a decent number of attacks) and getting the charge (to use Living Battering Ram). If you assault the Carnifex then your looking at 3 dead Marines a turn on average from both Carnifex added together. Way less dangerous than 24 Str6 twin-linked shots a turn and you get to hit back with those Str6 Krak Grenades. Similar deal with the Hive Tyrants, although your unlikely to catch them in assault (if he's good with them they'll stay airborn for as long as possible) and even without melee weapons they're more dangerous than Carnifex due to improved stats. Still, if you can catch them in assault it's worth it as it stops them firing those Devourers. Everything else he has is pitiful in assault and easy prey for your Wolves.

Aside from dealing with the Carnifex in assault, another legitimate option is removing all Synapse from around them. If you can get them out of Synapse at the start of his turn (by killing all the Synapse creatures within range) then there's a chance they'll suffer from Instinctive Behaviour and become next to useless (they can't shoot at all if they fail their test) or maybe even start damaging themselves. Carnifex are Ld7 so have a good chance of being susceptible to Instinctive Behaviour. Termagants are Ld6 so if they loose their Synapse they are even more likely to suffer, although the results for them aren't as bad.

Find out what else he's got on his Hive Tyrants. If he doesn't have the Electroshock Grubs biomorph, then his only way to deal with heavy armour is Warp Blast from the Hive Tyrants (if they roll it) and the Zoanthrops, plus the Hive Tyrants/Carnifex Smash attacks in melee. I'm not saying take three Land Raiders (that would probably make him hate you) but I would seriously consider taking one. It's immune to all of his shooting, meaning if he wants to take it out without plowing his monstrous creatures into the heart of your army (bad place for them to be as your way better than him at melee) he's going to have to use his psykers, which conveniently are the units you want him to over-extend so you can kill them off early. A Land Raider here is doing double duty, it's hard to kill, immune to the majority of his army and a huge threat that requires him to extend his lynchpin models to destroy. Don't rush your Land Raider in though, hold it back as a counter attack unit and force his Psykers to come to you. Warp Blast has an 18" range, use that to pull his important psykers to you and then counter attack hard to scalpel them out. Obviously, putting a strong unit (Terminator armoured Wolf Guard for example) inside increases both the counter attack threat and the lure potential of the Land Raider. It's a lot of eggs in one basket, but when that basket is immune to the majority of the enemy army it's worth considering.

I'd suggest either a Crusader, for it's anti-infantry/anti-flier potential, or a Redeemer for it's cover ignoring templates. Personally I prefer the Crusader in this match up, it's more versatile (it has a reasonable chance to hit fliers due to mass twin-linked), has more transport capacity and if you deal with those Venomthropes it's just as strong, if not stronger than the Redeemer in the anti-infantry department. A Land Raider Achilles would be sick here, it's immune to the Lance rule, which reduces the chance of Warp Blast to damage it and it's got a cover ignoring multiple barrage weapon for dealing with those Venomthrope's and Termagants. However, that might be too much, unless you want to fall out with your friend .

Finally, as has been mentioned before, his army is mainly BS3. The Carnifex and Termagants are all BS3, while the Hive Tyrants and Zoanthrope are BS4. In addition to that, All Devourer's, whether Brainleach (the upgraded Devourer found on Carnifex and Hive Tyrants) or basic Devourer are 18" range. This means the Hive Tyrant and Carnifex are 18" range, not 24". So it's actually 150 (BS3, 18", S4) shots from the Termagants, 24 (BS3, 18", S6, Twin Linked) shots from the Carnifex and 24 (BS4, 18", S6, Twin Linked) shots from the Hive Tyrants. In reality, it will be way less than that because most of those Termagants will die before they get to shoot.

TLDR

So, to sum up (only using the models you have in your list):

Know his army. Don't let him play with all BS4 when most of his stuff is BS3. Don't let him have 24" range on Brainleech Devourers when they're actually 18". There may be more stuff that we don't know about because it's not mentioned here, but basically have a look through the Tyranid Codex and try to know the rules for the models he's using, that way you can help him to get the rules right and not make mistakes. Also have a good read of the Synapse and Instinctive Behaviour rules. They, more than anything else, define how a Tyranid army plays. If he's getting those two rules wrong then it could give his army a massive boost or make it significantly worse than it should be.

Target Priority: Venomthropes first to get rid of Spore Cloud and reduce all his cover saves. Tervigon next to cause massive casualties on his Termagants and remove one of his Synapse. Zoanthrope is a target of opportunity, it's not much of a threat but killing it removes another Synapse. Deal with the Hive Tyrants if he over-extends them, but if he holds them back ignore them until the Venomthropes are gone. Ignore the Termagants unless they get close (or you have weapons which are ideally suited to them but not much use against other targets, such as flamers), hopefully a chunk of them will die from the Tervigon being killed and you can mop up the rest at your leisure. Ignore the Carnifex until everything else is dealt with or they're within range of something you really don't want to loose. Even then I'd consider feeding them targets to keep them busy while you deal with other more important stuff.

Assault - your better at it than him, take advantage of that. Don't charge across the board, force him to come to you then counter attack. Your a wolf waiting in ambush. not a rabid dog chasing sticks.

Synapse - do whatever is needed to remove this. Kill the Tervigon and Zoanthrope, try to get the Hive Tyrants to over-extend so that even if you can't deal with them, they're not keeping all of his army in Synapse range. Once they loose Synapse, Carnifex and Termagants become very unreliable.

[Fangbanger]

Tervigon can count as troops with a 30 gaunt tax...

[Toxichobbit]

Tervigon can count as troops with a 30 gaunt tax...

 

Almost, but not quite. One Tervigon can count as a Troops choice for each brood of 30 Termagants, not just for having 30 Termagants.There is no brood of 30 Termagants in the list, only two 20s and a 10, so the Tervigon is not a Troops choice, it's an HQ choice. Given that this isn't a Tyranid tactics forum, there's no reason to point out how the Tyranid list can change to improve itself (even if the change is as minor as rearranging the numbers in the Termagant broods), only to tell the OP the weaknesses of the Tyranid list and how to exploit them and currently having the Termagants organised the way they are is a weakness as it prevents the list from being Battle Forged.

[Fangbanger]

Oh I'm sorry I thought this was a discussions board? Don't be so narrow minded

[Toxichobbit]

Oh I'm sorry I thought this was a discussions board? Don't be so narrow minded

 

Well Mr Passive Aggressive, if you'd bothered to read the board rules before signing up you'd realise that this is a board for discussing human, not Xenos armies. That includes Space Marines (of all Chapters), Imperial Guard, Sisters of Battle, Grey Knights, Inquisition, Adeptus Mechanicus, Chaos Space Marines and Chaos Daemons (by association that when the board was set up they were part of the Codex: Chaos Space Marines). This does not include discussion of Tau, Eldar, Dark Eldar, Necrons and Tyranids, except in the News section (and even then only if it's News) or as an opponent for a human army. I guess in your haste to have a go at me after I proved you wrong you didn't notice that.

 

So, now that you know the rules perhaps you see I wasn't being narrow minded, but was, in fact, simply following the board rules. If you don't like it, feel free to PM the forum mods and tell them their forum is narrow minded.

[Fangbanger]

But it's relavent to the topic? It's not like I have come on and said "hey there op, I here what you are saying, but I have a nid army and I wonder if you can help me beat my space wolves buddy"

 

Try being less analy retentive on people just joining the forum as its a right put off.

[Toxichobbit]

No, it's not relevant. This is a topic on advising a Space Wolves player on how to beat  a Tyranid list, not on advising a Tyranid player on how to improve his list. If the Tyranid player wants to improve his list there are plenty of other forums for that, just not this one.

 

Also, drop the attitude. Despite popular internet belief it is possible to disagree with someone without putting a personal insult into every post.

[Fangbanger]

Fair point. I disagree with you as I never said how he can improve a list, merely pointed out that I thought the tervigon was troops as I just saw that he was bringing 50 gaunts and assumed it was 30/20. You however, stated how his list could be improved. I do agree though it shouldn't be personal so I appologise for the insults. It's just you didn't set a very friendly tone

 

I am over it anyway, this is way off topic and not fair on the op

[Toxichobbit]

Ahh, then my apologies for not making myself clear in my original reply to you. I didn't intend to imply that you were suggesting the Tyranid player change his list, I was actually covering my own back - giving someone advice on exploiting such a small and obvious advantage in an opponents list, without at least giving the Tyranid player the courtesy of explaining why his list was not Battle Forged would be a bit of a dick move. On somewhere like Warseer or Dakka Dakka, I would have said about re-arranging the Termagants to make a Battle Forged list as well as giving the Space Wolf player advice, but as this is a bug-free forum I was just saying why I was steering clear of that particular part of the topic.

 

Also, respect for the apology, it's an all too-uncommon thing on the internet (no sarcasm or condescension intended, just in case :)).

[Fangbanger]

All good man! It's only plastic toys at the end of the day ;)

[FenrisWolf]

Thank you both for displaying proper decorum. Now this is the Fang. Go grab some mjod together!

[Toxichobbit]

Mjod? I'll pass. If you've got a fine Macraggian vintage, or maybe some chilli tequila (or whatever Salamanders drink) I'm game though.

[Hear da Lamentation]

Thanks for the replies folks.

Couple of points.

1. Any "errors" in the army info I gave (like BS3 instead of BS4) are mine - not my friend's. He is indeed playing BS3.

2. His army is not "unbound" - he has a second detachment (the Tervigon is a HQ with one of the devilgaunts as a troop).

3. I have played against Nids MANY times - and I would say Devilgaunts beat any other type of gaunts hands down every time. With the cover save increase from the Venomthrope, you tell me of a unit with 18" str 4 assault 3 that is that cheap.

4. Although I appreciate the comments - as I mentioned in the OP - I wasn't after advice how to change my army to beat this one (I realise landraiders would do this) - it is how a TWC list like this one - or even heavier TWC with IP etc - would manage against this list. "Assault if they stay stationary" is all well and good advice. But you will have to get past a HELL of a lot of shooting in order to do that. I doubt there would be many TWC left. The army doesnt have lots of long range shooting - so "stay back" is also not an option.

5. Good advice to try and take out the Synapse guys - but of course - he protects those very well and bubble wraps them. Killing the Tervigon (when he knows this will result in a lot of his troops getting killed) is going to be a lot harder than it looks. Even if I had Longfangs - he will be gaining at least 3+ cover save (2+ in a ruin) and if there is any type of LOS blockin terrain he will be hiding behind it). He has no need to advance as he is shooting. He can sit back and poo out troops while his Flyrants kill about 6 marines a turn (between them).

6. The Flyrants will always be flying around (he wont keep them at the back in the Spore bubble). The only way to deal with 2 of them - is a flier - which I have. With Jink though - he is going to be able to protect one each round - and shoot with the other. Still ... the Stormwolf does rock

[FenrisWolf]

If you're not going to have mjod, try a real wine: Fenrisian Icewine. Here's a good vintage from 926. Much better than the others you mentioned. :lol:

[Hear da Lamentation]

I've got a couple of bottles of Kraken Bloodwine somewhere.  Not the best tasting - but a hell of a kick to it ...