Nasty nasty Nids

[Toxichobbit]

Thanks for the replies folks.

Couple of points.

1. Any "errors" in the army info I gave (like BS3 instead of BS4) are mine - not my friend's. He is indeed playing BS3.

2. His army is not "unbound" - he has a second detachment (the Tervigon is a HQ with one of the devilgaunts as a troop).

3. I have played against Nids MANY times - and I would say Devilgaunts beat any other type of gaunts hands down every time. With the cover save increase from the Venomthrope, you tell me of a unit with 18" str 4 assault 3 that is that cheap.

4. Although I appreciate the comments - as I mentioned in the OP - I wasn't after advice how to change my army to beat this one (I realise landraiders would do this) - it is how a TWC list like this one - or even heavier TWC with IP etc - would manage against this list. "Assault if they stay stationary" is all well and good advice. But you will have to get past a HELL of a lot of shooting in order to do that. I doubt there would be many TWC left. The army doesnt have lots of long range shooting - so "stay back" is also not an option.

5. Good advice to try and take out the Synapse guys - but of course - he protects those very well and bubble wraps them. Killing the Tervigon (when he knows this will result in a lot of his troops getting killed) is going to be a lot harder than it looks. Even if I had Longfangs - he will be gaining at least 3+ cover save (2+ in a ruin) and if there is any type of LOS blockin terrain he will be hiding behind it). He has no need to advance as he is shooting. He can sit back and poo out troops while his Flyrants kill about 6 marines a turn (between them).

6. The Flyrants will always be flying around (he wont keep them at the back in the Spore bubble). The only way to deal with 2 of them - is a flier - which I have. With Jink though - he is going to be able to protect one each round - and shoot with the other. Still ... the Stormwolf does rock

Good news about the second detachment. Though maybe not for you .

The thing with the Devourer Termagants is not that they're bad, because they're not (they're really good). It's that units armed solely with Devourers isn't a good way to play them. Termagants (almost) always take casualties getting into range and those casualties are 8pt models. If the unit was only a third to half armed with Devourers, then you can use the cheap non-Devourer Termagants in front to soak up some (or maybe all if your lucky) of the casualties and still have about the same number of shots when you get into range. Basically, it's making your points go further.

Of course, given today's recent Tyranid development, that's not entirely true anymore. Units of pure Devourer Termagants are now more viable (without wasting points on upgrading Termagants that will almost always die) as you can just Deep Strike them instead.

I'm going to disagree with you and say that I think staying back is still an option. You don't need to just sit in your deployment zone and wait, but likewise you don't want to be moving right into his threat zone as quickly as possible. Ideally you want to be moving forward then holding off just in front of his threat zone, forcing him to engage you.

I'm not just talking about the Thunderwolf Cavalry either, but the Grey Hunters (and maybe event Wolf Guard too) - personally I'd try dropping them in just in front of your deployment zone as a lure to get his 18" guns closer to your Thunderwolves, while trying to keep the Thunderwolves as well hidden as possible. The only thing that can really reach out and touch you is the flying Hive Tyrants and the weaker version of Warp Blast. You have the range advantage against everything else with your bolters, even if it is only 6". If he comes to you it might spread the swarm out a bit more and give you some openings to drop in the Dreadnought and/or Wolf Guard to deal with some Synapse. Big "might", but it's better than nothing.

I'd be looking to position my Thunderwolves about 22" inches away from his Gaunts. That's close enough that he is going to move in to engage you with his Devourers, but not close enough that he can bring his full weight of firepower to bare. The idea here is that with you being melee you only need to get one of your models into combat to neutralise his unit, where as he needs to get as many Devourer shots on you as possible to neutralise yours. Your Thunderwolves units are small (as in unit footprint, not model size), agile and fast, his units are large, unwieldy and slow, especially when tethered to Synapse and Spore Cloud while forming a constant bubble wrap for his two Carnifex and Tervigon. Try to use that to your advantage to reduce the incoming firepower.

Thinking along those lines, do you keep your two Thunderwolf units together? I'm no Thunderwolf expert, but I'm thinking as he's leashed to his Synapse/Spore Cloud range, putting a unit of Thunderwolves on each flank might force him into a refused flank position allowing you to get one unit of Thunderwolves closer to a nice target. Alternatively, it might make him split his firepower between the two units which will increase their survivability a bit. Either way, it might be worth a try (if you haven't already tried it).

It might also be worth considering trying to lure him into cover. His Monstrous Creatures and Termagants all have Move Through Cover, but that's not enough to even the odds as your Thunderwolves ignore Difficult Terrain entirely. It only takes one roll of three low dice and his force can be split up giving you an opening to hit something important. Likewise, the Zoanthrope and more importantly the Venomthropes don't have Move Through Cover, so they would slow down his advance allowing you to maybe back up a bit with your bolters for another turn of shooting and position your Thunderwolves better. Of course, the downside to that is you're taking Dangerous Terrain tests each time you move those Thunderwolves. It's quite unlikely that you will fail any given test (no idea on the odds as I'm crap at that kind of maths), but with four tests per unit per movement phase (and more if you Charge) it's a big risk. Loosing one Thunderwolf to Dangerous Terrain would really hurt, it's a quarter of a unit and a lot of points gone. I guess it all depends on how much you trust you dice.

If your not already doing it, droping in the Wolf Guard (or maybe Grey Hunters) to take out those Venomthropes asap would really help. I suspect though, that they're probably in a position where dropping in close to them is unlikely. Still something to consider.

In general though, while his list may not be a really nasty Tyranid list, it is a very good counter to yours (as I'm sure you already know). Between the cover saves on the Termagants and you being melee heavy and lacking in long range firepower, there's very little choice but to wade through the firepower and then the Termagants to get at the meat of his army. I know you don't really want to tailor your list, but at the moment you have a list that is very weighted in one direction while your opponent has a list that is nicely weighted to counter the direction your list is leaning. I'm not saying tailor your list to beat him, but would you be open to experimenting with a more balanced list (eg a bit more anti-air and something long ranged to stop him dictating the flow of the game)? If nothing else, swapping some weapons around on units (a combi-flamer or two in the Wolf Guard, for instance) might help even things up. Apart from that though, I'm all out of ideas.

As it stands if your sticking with your current list it's going to be ice skating up hill all the way, as you just don't have the tools to deal with what he's bringing and your heavy emphasis towards melee is going to restrict the tactics you can use. It's not an un-winnable battle, but between the winged Hive Tyrants being almost immune to everything but the Stormwolf (while also being probably the nastiest unit a Tyranid player can field) and solid protection of his Synapse, he holds all the cards.

Hopefully there's something among that lot that you haven't already tried and will help you even the odds. Good luck .

[Hear da Lamentation]

Lots of great advice there Toxic :)  As you say - I do wonder a little if that army is a counter to mine - rather than an all comers.  It might be worth my while to every so often completely change to another type of army (i.e. more vehicle heavy for instance).  Having said that - he hasn't actually fielded it yet so we will see :)

 

Thanks again for taking the time to reply, it has been helpful.

 

HDL

[Oz of the North]

I would say though with the new Tyranids release, without using allies or some magic from the dice gods. Wolves will not be able to take on well constructed nids list, currently wolves do not have great defense against MCs, the best is meh and now they can drop pod onto your side being carried by another MC, no matter what list you bring it will be a giant uphill battle.

[Bartali]

Lots of great advice there Toxic As you say - I do wonder a little if that army is a counter to mine - rather than an all comers. It might be worth my while to every so often completely change to another type of army (i.e. more vehicle heavy for instance). Having said that - he hasn't actually fielded it yet so we will see

Thanks again for taking the time to reply, it has been helpful.

HDL

As I know both of you, the Tyranid player will tailor to beat you. As you suggest, have two standard lists - one TWC heavy, one Armour heavy and alternate. To keep him on his toes, like