Something a bit more interesting

[Shadrach03]

So I built this with some input from a couple of others on the forum and thought I'd post it for everyone who is interesting to take a look at.  

 

Comments are more than welcome but please no hate mongering about how GK already have a book blah blah blah.

 

In instances where rules are significantly altered from their current state consider that similar changes should be brought across the board to applicable factions.

 

http://1drv.ms/1wu6Oq5

 

I was really trying to reinforce distinct roles for each unit and reinforce roles that they have in our fluff to the best of my ability.

 

1 new unit was added just as an idea that I would really like to hear if anyone thinks it could find a niche if it existed.

[Darkmagi]

Hmmmm it won't let me open it... Says .PDF can't be opened in word viewer

[Shadrach03]

That's odd, others have opened it.  I'll try to get another format online.

[Shadrach03]

http://1drv.ms/1wu6K9Q

 

Word document format on that one, let me know if anyone still has trouble.

[Darkmagi]

That one worked!

[Shadrach03]

Huzzah!

[jeffersonian000]

Why does Grand Master Mordrak have a Brother-Captain's stat-line?

 

Why is the only difference between a GM and a BC +1 A and +1 PML?

 

Wouldn't Sanctuary be a better power than Banishment on the Techmarine? It would make him useful.

 

I don't like the Land Speeder Warp Storm, just doesn't fit the GK deployment style. I do like Deep Striking Land Raiders, Rhinos, and Dreads, though.

 

Not to sure on Astral Aim, seem too iffy to make Purgators a viable option, yet might play out well. Will need to try them out a few times to be sure one way or the other.

 

SJ

[Shadrach03]

Mordrak should have a GM statline with+1 wound, will change that.

 

What else should a GM get for the points cost.

 

I want the tech marine to be I force multiplier for mech and a carrier for unique wargear.

 

Land raider and rhinos shouldn't have access to the warp stabilization field, just dreads.

 

The land speeder is meant for us to get a turn 1 locator beacon on the board with a 12 inch scout move that could also move a combat squad up early.

 

What do you think about the dreadnought and paladin changes? Enough to make them useful?

[Shadrach03]

Mordrak has been corrected.

 

What about instead of sanctuary on the tech marine he has a point adjustment for a second wound to make use of his artificer armor and option for 5+ invul so that he can face tank in a pinch?

 

Also not sure if this was notice but I added some of the Grey Knight army rules to the vehicles since it seems odd that they didn't have them in the first place.

[Darkmagi]

One big thing is I think you under pointed the land raider varients... A 25 point decrease is huge especially if you give armored cerimite as only a 10 point upgrade... Some balancing needed there.

[Shadrach03]

I'm completely open to changing point costs.  I just was looking for a way to make the land raider a competitive choice but may have went overboard.  

 

Give me some ideas and I can change things. 

 

I do believe that the land raider suffers from being a jack of all trades and pays dearly for it.  High armor and HP, 3 or more weapons, assault transport.  Being kinda good at several roles in a game usually means you will never excel and in turn be passed over.  

 

I would like to see what someone can come up with to make the land raiders more purpose driven units.

[Zembar]

Scout is not enough to salvage strikes. Get rid of their justicar tax at least.

 

Also, I'd still never take purgators.

 

Paladins are missing apothecary cost.

[raverrn]

• Teleporter pack upgrade for Terminator models should not be free - they're giving up relentless for 12" move and the ability to Sweeping Advance. I'd suggest 15 points, but that's just a guesstimate.

Mordrak shouldn't have AP2. Initiative order AP2 ID is in general an absurdly powerful ability that needs to be handed out sparingly - there's a reason it's limited to a very situational unit and our LoW only.

Ghost Knights need to cost more if they've got Shrouded.

Ghost Knights should have to pay for weapons.

Ghost Knights should probably be Fearless.

Mordrak probably shouldn't be able to join units - his Knight's Shrouded ability transfers to the unit he joins and that can lea to some pretty absurd combos. I'd suggest he begin the game with a set number of Ghost Knights - say, 5 - with access to all normal Termi upgrades, and be unable to leave the unit until they're all slain. The conjuring new Knights is fine.

Why does Stern have the stupid gun?

3++ re-rollable on the Champion is too strong. I'd suggest, if they have to have a relic, something that makes it impossible to decline challenges.

Why does the Librarian have the combi-weapon option?

Mathias is very too strong. Picking one power from Sanctic is fine, but modifying other power rolls is too much.

The Spire should just be 'Successfully harnesses warp charges on a 3+'

Thawn should be WS4 I4.

Should note that Thawn cannot take upgrades.

Paladins are too cheap at 45 points.

Dreadnoughts are not a GK thing. Librarian Dreads are unnecessary. 

10pts for Ceramite is too cheap.

Ven Dreads should not have AV13. AV13 is reserved for close-combat Dreads only, Furiosos and Ironclads and the like.

Warp Storm makes no sense. Why is it a psyker when the other transports aren't? Why can it hold PA infantry? Why is it so cheap? Open Top Skimmers don't mesh with GK very well.

Astral Aim should be worded better.

Astral Aim should be replaced.

Why drop the price on the Dreadknight Personal Teleporter?

Again, Ceramite is too chap by half.

Why the Comms relay? If you want reserves manipulation, the GM is  better place to put it.

[Darkmagi]

Raverrn the dreadknight teleporter cost is same as regular gk codex

[Shadrach03]

• Added 10 point cost to bro captain teleporter
• Mordraks hammer was a miss, added unwieldy as it should have been
• Ghost Knights up to 40 points per model
• Ghost knights do have to pay for melee weapons from the list
• Fearless added to Ghost Knights
• I thought Stern needed a bit of a boost when not facing Daemons and the gun was underpowered so a bit of an upgrade for each.
• The 3+ rerollable would still only work in challenges for the bro champ. Otherwise it's just a storm shield against shooting and normal cc.
• Combi-weapon was a holdover from the regular dex. Special weapon list access would make the librarian even more compulsory and pushed out the GM and BC.
• Only 1 of Mathias' power rolls can be modified, the rest stand as they are. We could still change this though.
• Language changed on Mathias' staff.
• Thawn was ws5 in the old book, I5 can be changed but Thawn is already a 40 point upgrade to a 33 point model.
• Terminators and Justicars are specifically noted for their upgrades, Thawn is not because he doesn't have them.
• What price points should Paladins have?
• Libby dreads seem to be very popular with many on the forums, that's why I included it.
• I'm inclined to agree on the ceremite, went by the 30k price-point.
• Changed warp quake on LSWP
• It is cheap because it will likely die after being used for a locator beacon and scouting a squad up. If it doesn't die move it up further and watch your purifier combat squad cleansing flame then enemies face. Price on the unit is negotiable though.
• I don't envision it using the regular marine land speeder model, more of a converted land speeder vengeance from the Dark Angel range.
• Comms relay is an attempt to make the land raider not suck but I had an idea for something else for the GM last night.

I appreciate the feedback.

EDIT: The document has been updated.

[Rurik the blessed]

I love what you have done here.

 

Most of changes are very well.

[Rurik the blessed]

Venerable Dreadnought should be 25+

and librarian 35+

[Brom MKIV]

Shardrach- what a cool initiative man thanks for sharing. I'm on my phone for now so I can't give real in depth feedback but I do have a few brief comments for now:

 

In general I like what you've done. You didn't go overboard but you took a bold approach to some units that have needed a change like land raiders and dreads. The land raider variants in particular I feel still need something to allow them to utilize their full fire power.

 

There are also a few missed opportunities and some potential synergies that might turn out to be too good, leaving some imbalance in the list. 

 

 Working from memory:

 

-tech marines could really use access to an orbital strike relay. The conversion beamer I feel needs to be updated across the spectrum to the version in ia13. The ignore glances power however is too good and will be very hard for certain armies to deal with especially when combined with ceramite.

 

-grand master adjusting reserves shouldn't exist if the army still has NSF. Again I'm considering these elements when combined not in a vacuum. 

 

-paladins need a rethink. A special per 2 means there's no reason to take gkt beyond compulsory, and that's saying something. Also it still doesn't address their main issue if ID. I would prefer some form of resistance to ID, either always get fnp saves or reduce weapon strength etc. Keep weapon access and cost the same as current though. A 27.5 pt terminator wound is fine as long as they aren't getting doubled out very often. Maybe only to s10 and str D. Also I've never agreed with banners replacing weapons. It detracts from the upgrade so here's a chance to fix that.

 

-LS  warp storms are an interesting concept. These will potentially change the entire dynamic of GKs and it might not be in a healthy way. I'm not against it entirely because they really help strikes. However I think these should strictly be limited to gkss as DTs and nowhere else. They already outshine every other transport option.

 

-librarian dreads do not belong. That's like giving blood angels personal teleporters. 

 

Anyway overall I give it a thumbs up. I'll try and update this when I get a chance. 

[Shadrach03]

• If i knew the conversion beamer rules from the new book they could defiantly change.

A NSF can already pay for a fortification to gain access to reserve manipulation.  Wouldn't it make more sense, since the army doesn't build fortifications as I understand it, for such an ability to exist in HQ form?  Also it is only reroll 1's not reroll all failed rolls, cost could change as well.

Paladin special weapons are per "paladin", "apothecary" and "paladin adept" do not count towards this total.  The only thing this changes is that for the initial cost you can put a special weapon in the 3 man squad of 2 paladins and 1 adept.  Upgrade 1 of those paladins to an apothecary and you lose access to your special weapon till you buy the 4th guy.  This still caps them at 4 weapons in a 10 man squad since you cannot field more than 9 paladins in a unit.

Thinking of dropping the locator beacon from it since a justicar can take a teleport homer which is almost as good.

Dropping LS warp storm as dedicated transports for all but scouts is ok in my book but I would still like some help to make them work as a way to move squads like purgators and purifiers up the field quickly while adding some utility in deep strike protection.

I don't understand why Blood Angels have librarian dreadnoughts but the argument that the chapter of psykers doesn't get them because Blood Angels do isn't a compelling one to me.  There's so much more that separates armies from each other than just 1 unit.

[Brom MKIV]

The chaos conversion beamer (all large blast):

>12" : S6 AP-

12"-24" : S8 AP4

24"-48" S10 AP1

 

Reserve manip is very strong in this army. If it were to remain I think it's cost might need reevaluated.

 

Fair enough I  missed the subtleties on the paladins. Point stands on the rest especially ID.

 

LS warp  storm is a cool concept. The problem is giving any other unit access brings the same problems with balance as current. Purifiers are under costed without them already plus they have the usual delivery and now much better land raiders. Purgators astral aim makes them a viable back field shooter with 8 x s7 rendind 36"  with intercept. 

 

Fair enough on the libby dread, it just feels like +1 territory. 

[Shadrach03]

So the conversion beamer change is to the ranges, I like the sound of that since 72" is quite a bit on the board.

 

The reserve will remain exclusive to GM and GM special characters but will change it's cost.

 

The paladin ID problem for me is that how do you add a way to give them protection without logic saying that if a paladin can do it, a BC or a GM should do it too?  The Ghostform Matrix relic idea you had is an interesting idea to offer such protection in an outside source.   I was hoping adding Sanctuary would help them along the path a bit.

 

The goal with the Purgators was to give them a usable threat range without the knee jerk change to assault for all special weapons.  I don't agree completly with the psycannon salvo rule I believe that we can get enough of them on terminator armor units, dreads and DK's to ignore the salvo handicap.  In this way if you stay in the 24"-36" range of purgators they can hurt ya, get too close and you'll get mowed down.

 

I was hoping the new rules for the Bone of Solor would help allow a HQ to face tank some wounds for a unit to protect something like Paladins but it may not be enough, might junk the item in favor of something else.

 

Alternate proposal for Ghostform Matrix: -1s to all ranged attacks against the unit.  Takes s8 off the table for ID but doesn't hamstring weapons that armies use to pop multiwound enemies.  Just thinking outloud here.

[IndigoJack]

The paladin problem could be addressed by something similar to the fortress of shield rule the deathwing knights have (models with the inner circle special rule get +1 strength when in b2b contact with two other models with the inner circle special rule)

[Shadrach03]

Champions of Titan: Models with this special rule have +1T while in btb contact.  

 

Seems kinda copy and past, space wolves did it with champions of fenris though, but it does get the job done.  

 

Champions of Titan rule on BC, GM, BroChamp, Paladins and applicable special characters?

[raverrn]

What about, instead of a new weird open top skimmer thingy you gave Knights Drop Pod access? Those can take locator bacons, are mentioned here and there in fluff, and give you an interesting choice with the Grand Master (if he grants rerolls) to try to get things in first turn OR try to keep them off until the second for no scatter.

 

But keep Purifiers out of them.

[Brom MKIV]

Well I'm biased but I like the ghostform matrix! Limited to one unit, doesn't restrict model placement and allows fnp to stay active against high strength attacks.

 

Purgators are fine I feel. However I would consider giving purifiers land raiders as DTs, possibly even purgators too. This would open these units up to better compete with ndk's and has good synergy with TMs. I like the idea of conversion beams and purgators inside bunkers btw. Just another reason I'd hate to see all drawbacks solved internally (like reserve manip). Maybe leave that power to mordrak.