Horus vs Abaddon: Post Vengeful Spirit / Talon of Horus

[Prot]

Just a heads up that it's almost impossible to post this without involving some serious spoilers from the books mentioned in the title.

 

++++++++++++++++Spoilers Ahead!++++++++++++++++++++++++++

 

So that being said I have to admit I look very differently at Horus after reading Vengeful Spirit. I have to add that I loved Vengeful Spirit and thought it might be the best Graham McNeil novel in the series for me, which is really hard to say considering how much I loved the Iron Warrior one.

 

Anyway what changed my opinion of Horus was I still see him as a champion to his people. And they obviously love him. He is still charismatic, and there is moment in the book where he goes through that portal in the cave on Moech.

 

He comes out minutes later, but he is aged,,, well aged. Like a fine wine, not a skanky old beer! He emerges after what has been hundreds of years (?) to him. In that time all we see originally is a 'messenger' daemon of the chaos main powers, but he is a conman, hoping to convince Horus he is no more than nurgle dung to the players of chaos.

 

Horus doesn't buy it. In fact he leads massive armies, and defeats all of them on their own turf. He leaves it all behind, wanting none of it but the power he has wrestled from their pathetic hippy cults.

 

Now I was originally under the impression that Horus was just 'gifted' by Chaos after kind of bargaining for his life. But it is apparent when he emerges from the portal that ALL are moved by his presence. If he was a demi-god before, his statue had doubled even to his highest captains. It was in his eyes, and his demeanor. He refers to taking a power, whereas his father had to mislead and use trickery and deception to gain some of this power.

 

We're left feeling that Horus believes himself to be right on par with the Emperor. 

 

This seems huge. It's very different from what I previously believed to be the path of Horus. He seems to not be in love with Chaos (where I used to think he was enamoured with it, we seem to share the view of space hippies are just a tool to be used!)

 

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Abaddon, as we know, refers to Horus as a fool, Horus was weak, Horus was a fool... blah blah blah. Are we to believe that Abaddon even remotely approaches the full capability of a Primarch that took the warp to town over a centuries old quest?

 

There is a small moment... surprisingly small (it could have been huge but it was a bit part) in the Talon of Horus where Abaddon kills a cloned 'Horus'.

 

Are we to believe this means Abaddon could defeat him? Or do we judge the cloned Horus to be a shadow of the real thing, that wears fingerless gloves and a padded helmet so he doesn't damage himself when he eats his crayons?

 

Nevertheless Abaddon seems quite confident he could beat up Horus. We know from Talon of Horus that Abaddon does change personality wise... significantly. He's most often portrayed as a short tempered, school yard bully. But Talon of Horus gives us (what I viewed as ) a personality very close to McNeil's version of Huron Blackheart.... Very powerful, but potentially crazy, and a dash of dazzling personality. So post Terra, something happens where Abaddon sheds his schoolyard termper and personality.

 

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So knowing what we know at this time, do believe that Horus would have any difficulty defeating Abaddon? Assume both are at the top of their powers.

 

Abaddon wants to kill the emperor as much as Horus did (0r so it appears). But is he capable of it? Horus , we're lead to believe' is as potent as the Emperor, just as powerful. But we still are only 487 novels into the storyline so we don't know for a while how it will play out.

 

One GW source I read indicated the Emperor held back a lot, and it was only when Horus dealt that anathema blow that would lead to the Emperor's slow death that the Emperor lets loose an epic psychic attack that destroys Horus in such a way that makes you believe he could have done so at any time.

 

Granted, now the Emperor is in a wheel chair, and a shard of his former self. Considering the story never progresses beyond 30K we will never know how far Abe gets.

 

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A side note to this is that we are being groomed to believe in the HH series that a Primarch, created by the Emperor, with the assistance of Chaos, can defeat a god Emperor which some would say is the balance, the Star Child, the counter to Chaos. Horus is merely a gifted son, What equalizes them? It could be the Powers that Horus took by force in his centuries of war in the Warp might be the great equalizer?

 

Abaddon has a pilgrimage in hippy land as well. But he is not even a Primarch, simply a gifted (we don't know how he got it) marine. While this might put him on a level above your average chapter master, does it make him close to Horus?

 

Post Vengeful Spirit I wonder how Abaddon can speak so ill of Horus? I understand the corpse of the Horus had to be burned, it was tearing them apart, and creating their own identity seemed to help the Sons/Black Legion move on, but otherwise I can't see how this is respectful, or even acccurate of Abaddon to say.

 

What do you guys think?

 

 

[Kastor Krieg]

Horus in "Talon" is "young Horus". Does not have that "portal" experience, doesn't have the Chaos essence backing him. He's "just Horus".

[Prodigal Son of Magnus]

In a fight between both at their full power I would put money on Horus. When Horus was at full power he was literally a vessel for the Gods, not a champion like Abaddon, a vessel. He literally was the full power of Chaos in one being. Now I guess you could say that it wasn't Horus doing these things it was the Gods but he still defeated the Emperor in single combat after facing down Sanguinius. Yes, he did lose to the Emperor after he unleashed his full power but it also says that nothing but the Emperor's full power could beat Horus.

 

As a leader though, I give that to Abaddon. While Horus was charismatic he commanded an army of loyal men ready to die for him while Abaddon has to lead a group of traitors who would kill each other and him at the drop of the hat.

[Kol Saresk]

The greatest con, is the one where the victim thinks they came out on top.

[Prot]

The greatest con, is the one where the victim thinks they came out on top.

I see what you did there.

That being said, I think with what we know, it is safe to say Chaos wants the big E deader than a door knob. Saving Horus from a certain death way back in the series only served one purpose for Chaos.... again, I think they want him dead more than anyone and found a tool with reach beyond their own to do the job.

But back to the point, I don't think that would give Abaddon any sort of edge to be honest. He could be just as big a pawn.... maybe.

[Kol Saresk]

Yeah, but it does point out the circumstances. If the Gods simply tricked Horus into thinking he was his own master and that he had taken their power for himself so he could fight the Emperor as a sacrificial bullet, it would also mean that they would do whatever it would take to protect him. You are taking Horus at his strongest, which is ironic because it became the moment his fate was sealed.

 

Meanwhile, you are taking Abaddon at his potentially weakest and asking if he could do the same job it took the Emperor's life to do. As analogy, Abaddon is a reforged sword that just got pulled out of the flames. He was lost after the Heresy and he underwent this massive pilgrimage across the Eye, learning what he could about pretty much everything. When we see him in Talon of Horus, he is not the Terminator-clad war-king who wears the Talon of Horus on one hand and the reality-sundering Drach'nyen in the other while protected by the Gods with the Mark of Chaos Ascendant. No, he is the Abaddon who has just found himself and is taking the first step on that path. So while newly forged, he has yet to be tempered.

 

So of course the Abaddon of Talon of Horus would have no hope of defeating the Horus of the Obsidian Path. The one has barely any power while the other is protected and empowered by the very will of the Gods.

 

Now, if we took the Abaddon of 40K, where he has actually been given the full power and blessing of the Gods and has acclimated that boon to his will to create the Mark of Chaos Ascendant, has mastered the daemon sword Drach'nyen and plans to grip the Corpse-Emperor with the Talon of Horus, and put that Abaddon up against Horus of the Obsidian Path, that fight would be up in the air.

 

Because on one side, you have Horus, the Sacrificed King. And then you have Abaddon the Warmaster, the "mere" Astartes who took the entire Legion Wars, the perfect never ending war for the Gods, and ended them. The Astartes who wasn't chosen by the Gods, but rather the one who demanded to be chosen by taking their own game and using it to his advantage.

 

That is the difference. Horus was born to be the Sacrificed King. Abaddon chose to become the Warmaster of Chaos Ascendant and was granted his power by telling the Gods themselves to go to the warp because he had more important things to do with the material realm and he needed the Legions to do it.

[Balthamal]

The other facet to this that needs to be kept in mind is that, in the end, when all was said and done, Horus, with full knowledge or in complete, arrogant ignorance,  submitted. He accepted the offer from the powers of Chaos. He cashed out his prize as it were. Abaddon hasn't. He keeps going. He keeps winning regardless of all the perceived failure about him because every outcome that doesn't result in his death is a victory. He's sitting safely in the Eye of Terror, immortal, knowing he can simply watch the Imperium crumble year upon year, helping it along it's way when he needs to so that when he finally does go to Terra, nothing will withstand him and he'll have the pleasure of spitting on the Emperor's corpse.

 

But throughout all that he doesn't submit to the Chaos gods, he takes everything they offer him, the lordship, the dominion, the billion strong armies but he gives nothing in return. They crave him, the one mortal it appears who refuses to bend his knee, it drives them mad so that when they do come crawling back to him again, promising untold power, they have to offer more and more and more. And still he says no.

 

Horus left the Warp with what he thought was untold power. Abaddon is offered that because he is beyond it's temptations. I think if you were to pitch Warmaster Horus at Warmaster Abaddon, the latter would be left standing

[Tenebris]

Horus was groomed to become the "Sacrificed King", he was a means to an end. Sure he did his part in the Heresy, sure he led the armies against the Imperium and sure he put his father on the Golden Throne, but he was not the leader of Chaos. What he was is the leader of the traitor legions, not of the chaos legions, not of daemon legions, not of countless horrors spawned in the Eye.

 

Horus was empowered, he died because his task was complete, the Long War was set in place, endless carnage and bounty for the Dark Gods for thousands of years yet to come... but he was not Warmaster of Chaos.

 

Abaddon on the other hand is a being born into Chaos, he took the pilgrimage with the exact intent of learning about Chaos, he studied the Eye, its denizens, its gods. He not only embraces Chaos for the potential it brings but he embraced Chaos as a tool, as a means to an end... see.

 

If Horus was a means to an end for the Chaos Gods, it is the Chaos Gods who are a means to an end for Abaddon. The first is the Sacrificed King, the second is the true Warmaster of Chaos. 

 

At the time of the Talon of Horus novel Abaddon is just a champion, not even empowered by Chaos but indeed very wise in the ways of Chaos. He made it a personal quest to understand this realm of madness and to reap the benefits from it. In truth he is the one who "weaponized" Chaos for the Long War... not the other way around.

 

But with Abaddon in M41... I think that neither Horus nor the Emperor stand a chance. He is the avatar of Chaos Undivided, a godling among mortals, the Warmaster of Chaos and the lesson is that when Abaddon puts something to his mind, his will, unyielding will drives him on, deaf to the pleas of gods and mortals... and he created a legion from the ashes of defeat. Here we speak of a Champion whose legion was not given to him at birth, it is not even a legion of devoted warriors, it is a legion of traitors and madmen that he chained to his will... and if not through strength alone then I bet that Abaddon can win any challenge through his will alone. 

 

He is not the weapon of Chaos like Horus was, he is the one who wields Chaos as a weapon. The first was an exalted slave, the other is the undisputed master of his fate. 

[A D-B]

As much as I loathe X vs Y ideas, my money would have to be on the character that has the Mark of Chaos Ascendant and is prophesied to be the downfall of the Imperium, rather than the one who was deceived by the Chaos Gods and (evidently) failed at the last moment, regretting everything he'd done.

 

One is the Archenemy of the setting. One is the failed rebel of the setting's mythology. One has 20 years of varying, shifting lore, memes, and fans seeing him die in their games. One has a vast swathe of positive bias because of "It's the Heresy, after all this time" and the ever-present Primarch Wow Factor in the fandom. One has practically every blessing imaginable by the Chaos Gods and a sword that cuts through reality, as well as a cool talon. One has... a cool talon, and the Gods' favour until he doesn't, anymore, whereupon he decided he'd made a huge mistake.

 

That's why it's a tragedy. Horus' story is a tragedy, and always has been. Abaddon's story is not. Abaddon's story is about the angels of hell coming home to roost; not about being deceived by evil but the sins of the past coming back to haunt Mankind. His story would culminate in the end of 40K that exists after the setting, after "two minutes to midnight" ticks over into midnight.

 

I think it's fairly clear what the setting suggests, but if it came down to fisticuffs, who knows? Like any fight, it'd depend on circumstance and context. David beat Goliath with a sling. Imagine if David was so similar to Goliath that people often thought they were clones, and had a sword that could cut through reality. Well, indeed.

 

Maybe I'm only being semi-serious with the above, but the point is a good one.

[A D-B]

Also, two matters on a meta-level.

 

Nevertheless Abaddon seems quite confident he could beat up Horus. 

 

I'm not sure that's true. I'm not sure he really dwells on it that much, or even cares. It's probably not something that occurs to him all that often, given the fact that Horus is dead and it's not an issue outside fan speculation. He believes he can succeed where Horus fails, of course. 

 

 

 

 

Post Vengeful Spirit I wonder how Abaddon can speak so ill of Horus? I understand the corpse of the Horus had to be burned, it was tearing them apart, and creating their own identity seemed to help the Sons/Black Legion move on, but otherwise I can't see how this is respectful, or even acccurate of Abaddon to say.

What do you guys think?

 

He can speak so ill of Horus because he's always spoken so ill of Horus. A lot of Vengeful Spirit is essentially new lore. That doesn't make it wrong, but it makes it less likely to have anything based on it yet, especially As The Talon of Horus was written at the same time, and the Black Legion Series is largely based on the vibe of 2nd Edition and 3rd Edition Chaos lore, with a healthy dose of Rogue Trader and more recent codexes.

 

That is to say, as much as Horus may have undergone a renovation in Vengeful Spirit (one you mention surprised you and showed you plenty of new things), it's not something that any other novel has had time to react to just yet. 

 

And even then, there's nothing saying that the events of Vengeful Spirit will cast Horus in a better light among Chaos Marines, especially given how much they've hated him for XXX years. The reason Horus is largely despised isn't because of any specific attitude to Chaos. There are as many attitudes to Chaos among the Traitor Legions as there are Chaos Marines themselves. Naw, they hate Horus because he failed, he screwed up, and his Legion lost the war for them. 

 

Him telling them all he's enlightened about Chaos makes no different to any of that, even if they believe him. And, well, given what Abaddon has seen and what his destiny is, there's a very good chance post-Heresy Abaddon knows enough not to give Horus' beliefs the benefit of the doubt anyway. There was no Mark of Chaos Ascendant shining on Horus' brow, after all.  

 

Postscript: The thing that makes me so uncomfortable about these topics is that they're so black and white, in a setting shaded grey. If I explain why Abaddon is actually such a serious threat, it's "Oh, ADB is biased and wants to make Abaddon into a credible threat". If I argue in favour of Horus (apart from going against the lore...) it's "Well, ADB likes Chaos more so of course he's in favour of the Traitor Primarchs." There's often no way to win these things, depending on who is on which side. 

 

Sometimes (often!) the answer is an awesome slice of "It could be X, it could be Y; it could be this, it could be that. Whatever works best for your vision and your games."

[Prot]

Yeah, but it does point out the circumstances. If the Gods simply tricked Horus into thinking he was his own master and that he had taken their power for himself so he could fight the Emperor as a sacrificial bullet, it would also mean that they would do whatever it would take to protect him. You are taking Horus at his strongest, which is ironic because it became the moment his fate was sealed.

 

Meanwhile, you are taking Abaddon at his potentially weakest and asking if he could do the same job it took the Emperor's life to do. As analogy, Abaddon is a reforged sword that just got pulled out of the flames. He was lost after the Heresy and he underwent this massive pilgrimage across the Eye, learning what he could about pretty much everything. When we see him in Talon of Horus, he is not the Terminator-clad war-king who wears the Talon of Horus on one hand and the reality-sundering Drach'nyen in the other while protected by the Gods with the Mark of Chaos Ascendant. No, he is the Abaddon who has just found himself and is taking the first step on that path. So while newly forged, he has yet to be tempered.

 

So of course the Abaddon of Talon of Horus would have no hope of defeating the Horus of the Obsidian Path. The one has barely any power while the other is protected and empowered by the very will of the Gods.

 

 

Because on one side, you have Horus, the Sacrificed King. And then you have Abaddon the Warmaster, the "mere" Astartes who took the entire Legion Wars, the perfect never ending war for the Gods, and ended them. The Astartes who wasn't chosen by the Gods, but rather the one who demanded to be chosen by taking their own game and using it to his advantage.

 

 

 

Woah, you gotta back up a bit before I really get into this. I am not taking them at polar opposites of their heights of power. I simply point to 'facts' (if we can call it that) as written in the books. We can only work with what is currently written. But I would certainly suggest comparing them on their best days.

 

Of course the question is flawed. It's a constantly re-written landscape. I just thought it would be fun to poke a stick at it.

 

-. To say one is a pawn and one is not, is just speculation. They could both be pawns. Actually I believe this to be the case.

 

That is the difference. Horus was born to be the Sacrificed King. Abaddon chose to become the Warmaster of Chaos Ascendant and was granted his power by telling the Gods themselves to go to the warp because he had more important things to do with the material realm and he needed the Legions to do it.

 

 

- This is a weird angle to me. To me it is no different. They both have/had gifts bestowed on them for one purpose. They are both playing with fire. How do you know the second Abaddon finally gets close to realizing his dream it isn't pulled out from under him? We will never see this scenario play out. The real difference is below....

 

- My angle was more that as written, we see Primarch's as not only god-like physical specimens, but geniuses as well. It's well established that the mere level these guys work on is just way beyond the capability of an Astartes, even the best of them. Whether it be Wargames against Purturabo, or Horus' only tactical equal perhaps being Ferrus Manus.

 

- I think the base starting point that one of these guys is a Primarch and one is a transformed man is huge.  I guess I'm not sure (maybe we find out) why Abaddon refers to Horus as 'a weak fool'.  Like I said originally I thought Horus was more.... coerced into siding with Chaos, but as the novels have rolled on, he 'appears' to have the same sort of motivation, and disdain for the Emperor that Abaddon adopts.

 

Vengeful Spirit:

+ I'd REALLY like to know exactly what the Emperor did through that portal on Moech. That could be a very interesting stand alone story itself.

 

+ Going way back I recall a glimpse of a 'chaos vision' that showed the Emperor making his babies with some sort of assistance of Chaos. I wonder if it started there? Or why Chaos would even bother.

 

+ Until this novel I somehow always thought that Horus was more smitten with Chaos, but I guess this isn't the case. For some reason I always believed that this was the difference between Horus' and  Abaddon's handling of the Chaos relationship but they both seem to have no real allegiance to it.

 

It's a great read. I highly recommend it to anyone on the fence about it.

[Prot]

 

 

He can speak so ill of Horus because he's always spoken so ill of Horus. A lot of Vengeful Spirit is essentially new lore. That doesn't make it wrong, but it makes it less likely to have anything based on it yet, especially As The Talon of Horus was written at the same time, and the Black Legion Series is largely based on the vibe of 2nd Edition and 3rd Edition Chaos lore, with a healthy dose of Rogue Trader and more recent codexes.

 

- as far as reacting to the novel, I just assumed (probably a bad idea on my part) that you guys pre-planned this stuff and kind of decided as a group the kind of dynamics that passed within the Legions. As an example.... I was shocked to see Mortarion behead his personal bodyguard in one sweep of his scythe just to 'empower' a dude rotting in the geneseed fridge. That was an eye opener.

 

I guess a lot is changing. This is a timeline that will probably change how we view/viewed a lot of things.

 

 

Postscript: The thing that makes me so uncomfortable about these topics is that they're so black and white, in a setting shaded grey. If I explain why Abaddon is actually such a serious threat, it's "Oh, ADB is biased and wants to make Abaddon into a credible threat". If I argue in favour of Horus (apart from going against the lore...) it's "Well, ADB likes Chaos more so of course he's in favour of the Traitor Primarchs." There's often no way to win these things, depending on who is on which side.

 

 

- lol. No one's going to say that. Your conversation here is so heavily respected it's insane. If anything people take what you say as gospel almost too much. It's a double edged sword. As an aside if anyone's accused you of that I haven't seen it. I don't expect to hear it considering I think you do try to walk the (unbiased) line of reason when you post.

 

Sometimes (often!) the answer is an awesome slice of "It could be X, it could be Y; it could be this, it could be that. Whatever works best for your vision and your games."

 

 

- Funny. This is exactly why I LOVE these conversations. Often I am opened up to new angels, and come away with more that I started with. I stated earlier it is definitely a flawed debate to have, but lots of fun for us geeks. The alternative is that I get to work. I'll take this instead.

 

And I agree with you. When I play Dark Angels they aren't too concerned with the Fallen but rather moving on to establish themselves as a premier Chapter/Legion moving forward. If I say that in the DA forum they will chain me to the walls and whip me with a blessed cactus. But there you go. It's my game too.

 

 

The reason Horus is largely despised isn't because of any specific attitude to Chaos. There are as many attitudes to Chaos among the Traitor Legions as there are Chaos Marines themselves. Naw, they hate Horus because he failed, he screwed up, and his Legion lost the war for them.

 

- I was wrong. I always thought they didn't blame him for the failure. For some reason I thought that they ended up hating him because of his failed relationship with Chaos.

 

Previous to these books it was written a long time ago that before the final blow, all the powers of the warp leave Horus... betrayed. I thought that was the lesson that made him a fool. But now I see how the fall of his Legion would probably have more to do with that.

[Sception]

One thing to remember is that these are two characters who have been portrayed very differently in different sources, and those differences may reflect the authors passive perceptions, or deliberate retcons to the fluff, rather than a canonical change in the personalities of the characters through time.

 

As for Abaddon's hatred of Horus, well, this is purely my own interpretation, but I never read that at 100% genuine.  Horus's failure broke the hearts and spirits of his legion, Abaddon's included, and as long as they clung to his memory, as long as they continued to idolize and worship him, they were doomed to share his failure and eventually his death.  Only by rejecting Horus could they move forward, and Abaddon understood that.  Casting down the memory of Horus was the only way to preserve his legacy and, avenge his death, and complete his work.

 

My reading is that Abaddon does hate Horus, not because he failed the powers of chaos, but because he failed his Legion, he failed Abaddon, as a mentor and a father figure who Abaddon looked up to and idolized.  It's a personal hatred the sprouts from the devotion Abaddon harbored for him and, again in my personal interpretation, still does to some extent.  So he outwardsly spits on Horus's memory while he secretly clings to it in his heart, and when he finally does crush the remnants of life from the Emperor's shattered husk, he will do so with Horus's hand, and with Horus's name on his lips.

[Loesh]

I was debating if I should make a post or let the discussion take it's course, I decided I might as well since i'v got the day off. I feel that in a direct confrontation between Horus and Abaddon, on a perfectly even playing field, would result in Horus winning because he isn't Chaos Ascendant. Indulge me for a moment.

 

The reason is, Abaddon and Horus were made for two entirely different jobs. Horus was meant to hold the gun to the head of the Imperium, Abaddon was meant to pull the trigger 10,000 years later, and as such their blessings are different rather then greater...actually, let me rephrase, the blessing of Chaos Ascendant is greater but it is greater in a different way then Horus.

 

It's like comparing a hammer to a knife, the primary objective for Horus was to keep Chaos in order for a very short term with the end objective of maximizing as much damage to the Imperium as possible. To this end, I feel the Chaos Gods just dumped a ton of power into the guy so he could wreck house as need be, they were all pouring themselves into him until they very moment that they withdraw and he gets obliterated completely. He was never meant to unite the armies of Chaos together, huge swaths of the legions were missing from the Siege of Terra with the Emperors Children doing their own thing and the Night Lords not even being there at all.

 

In contrast, Abaddons goal is to make a sort of Genghis Khan like empire in the eye in order to smash through the Cadian gate and...not even siege Terra, he just needs to bust things open so that the rest of Chaos can do it's thing and the Imperium will slowly die one way or another on it's own. Abaddon doesn't have some epic showdown with the Emperor he needs to complete, the Emperors already taken a beating to near death and has been dying for the last 10,000 years. Therefore I get the impression that the mark of Chaos Ascendant isn't just a power dump by the Chaos Gods, but it is much more...stable and long term.

 

So I feel in a straight up fight Horus would win, not that it matters or makes him somehow better then Abaddon, it just hammers home the point that Horus was a dupe, and a very blunt instrument for Chaos to wield, and I sorely doubt it's a match Abaddon even thinks about.

[A D-B]

The reason is, Abaddon and Horus were made for two entirely different jobs. Horus was meant to hold the gun to the head of the Imperium, Abaddon was meant to pull the trigger 10,000 years later, and as such their blessings are different rather then greater...actually, let me rephrase, the blessing of Chaos Ascendant is greater but it is greater in a different way then Horus.

 

...snip coolness...

 

So I feel in a straight up fight Horus would win, not that it matters or makes him somehow better then Abaddon, it just hammers home the point that Horus was a dupe, and a very blunt instrument for Chaos to wield, and I sorely doubt it's a match Abaddon even thinks about.

 

I think that makes a lot of sense, and pretty much rocks on toast. 

 

 

As for Abaddon's hatred of Horus, well, this is purely my own interpretation, but I never read that at 100% genuine.  Horus's failure broke the hearts and spirits of his legion, Abaddon's included, and as long as they clung to his memory, as long as they continued to idolize and worship him, they were doomed to share his failure and eventually his death.  Only by rejecting Horus could they move forward, and Abaddon understood that.  Casting down the memory of Horus was the only way to preserve his legacy and, avenge his death, and complete his work.

 

My reading is that Abaddon does hate Horus, not because he failed the powers of chaos, but because he failed his Legion, he failed Abaddon, as a mentor and a father figure who Abaddon looked up to and idolized.  It's a personal hatred the sprouts from the devotion Abaddon harbored for him and, again in my personal interpretation, still does to some extent.  So he outwardsly spits on Horus's memory while he secretly clings to it in his heart, and when he finally does crush the remnants of life from the Emperor's shattered husk, he will do so with Horus's hand, and with Horus's name on his lips.

 

I like that a lot, too. And as a trait in fiction, hatred is a little overdone at times. There's enough of it in the Chaos Marine story that it's awesome to show some of the other angles, as long as you do the hatred justice.

 

(Of course, the opposing problem is that especially in genre ficton there's no shortage of fans that take pretty much any emotion as "emo". There's often an undercurrent among some readers that characters should just get over everything immediately, and never lament or hold a grudge outside of anything except battlefield bitterness for the other side. A Space/Chaos Marine in turmoil or showing any emotional unrest over their primarch's actions/fate is something that can get criticised right off the bat, no matter how carefully it's done, because some reviewers will inevitably say it's "emo". And where Horus is concerned, you have to be doubly careful: you don't want fans thinking the Black Legion hates him because they can't live up to him or that they need him now he's gone. As cool as that angle would be for some of them, you then run the risk of it just adding to the Primarch Wow Factor, and so on.

 

You can overanalyse these things, but imagine about 6,000 quandaries like this, going into every project. As much as you're writing for yourself, you're also a hired gun to present a license and its lore as well as you can.)

 

 

 

 

 

He can speak so ill of Horus because he's always spoken so ill of Horus. A lot of Vengeful Spirit is essentially new lore. That doesn't make it wrong, but it makes it less likely to have anything based on it yet, especially As The Talon of Horus was written at the same time, and the Black Legion Series is largely based on the vibe of 2nd Edition and 3rd Edition Chaos lore, with a healthy dose of Rogue Trader and more recent codexes.

 

- as far as reacting to the novel, I just assumed (probably a bad idea on my part) that you guys pre-planned this stuff and kind of decided as a group the kind of dynamics that passed within the Legions. As an example.... I was shocked to see Mortarion behead his personal bodyguard in one sweep of his scythe just to 'empower' a dude rotting in the geneseed fridge. That was an eye opener.

 

I guess a lot is changing. This is a timeline that will probably change how we view/viewed a lot of things.

 

A lot gets planned, but it's still different authors with different influences seeing a nebulous setting through different lenses. I'd never have Mortarion do that, for example, but I think it's awesome and interesting that Graham did. No matter how much is planned, it's like... fifty authors writing stuff all at the same time, these days. Even the Heresy team is no longer a team, so to speak. The doors are wide open (and rightly so) across BL's stable.

 

 

QuotePostscript: The thing that makes me so uncomfortable about these topics is that they're so black and white, in a setting shaded grey. If I explain why Abaddon is actually such a serious threat, it's "Oh, ADB is biased and wants to make Abaddon into a credible threat". If I argue in favour of Horus (apart from going against the lore...) it's "Well, ADB likes Chaos more so of course he's in favour of the Traitor Primarchs." There's often no way to win these things, depending on who is on which side.

- lol. No one's going to say that. Your conversation here is so heavily respected it's insane. If anything people take what you say as gospel almost too much. It's a double edged sword. As an aside if anyone's accused you of that I haven't seen it. I don't expect to hear it considering I think you do try to walk the (unbiased) line of reason when you post.

 

 

Not here, naw. At least not much. But you just know it'll show up out of context on another forum with "ADB says Abaddon can beat up Horus" and... ugh.

 

 

Previous to these books it was written a long time ago that before the final blow, all the powers of the warp leave Horus... betrayed. I thought that was the lesson that made him a fool. But now I see how the fall of his Legion would probably have more to do with that.

 

It could totally still be that. And then, in a different book, not. In the case of older Chaos lore and its tone, which the Black Legion series is largely based on, I'll still try to have characters with entirely different perceptions about what happened and why. None of my Night Lords agreed about their primarch or the Legion's past. The Black Legion will be similar, with the added plus of being an entirely newly forged Legion drawn from many, many more backgrounds than any of the others.

 

I try not to be too definitive in terms of "This is what happened, the end". I try to show what it's like to live in the setting, and the perspectives you'd see on the ground level.

[A D-B]

 

+ Until this novel I somehow always thought that Horus was more smitten with Chaos, but I guess this isn't the case. For some reason I always believed that this was the difference between Horus' and  Abaddon's handling of the Chaos relationship but they both seem to have no real allegiance to it.

 

 

It may work out that way again; Horus still has an arc ahead of him. What he thinks now may not be what he thinks at Terra.

[Prot]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

- as far as reacting to the novel, I just assumed (probably a bad idea on my part) that you guys pre-planned this stuff and kind of decided as a group the kind of dynamics that passed within the Legions. As an example.... I was shocked to see Mortarion behead his personal bodyguard in one sweep of his scythe just to 'empower' a dude rotting in the geneseed fridge. That was an eye opener.

I guess a lot is changing. This is a timeline that will probably change how we view/viewed a lot of things.

 

A lot gets planned, but it's still different authors with different influences seeing a nebulous setting through different lenses. I'd never have Mortarion do that, for example, but I think it's awesome and interesting that Graham did. No matter how much is planned, it's like... fifty authors writing stuff all at the same time, these days. Even the Heresy team is no longer a team, so to speak. The doors are wide open (and rightly so) across BL's stable.

 

 

 

 

Man I'd love to be a fly on the wall for one of those sessions. The problem is I probably couldn't shut up long enough to remain hidden, but it'd be fun to see how long I could hold out before blowing my cover. Personally I love this *!*&.

 

I wish it would go on forever. I'm almost dreading the ending, even though at first a good 20 novels in I was dying for progression.

[thraxdown]

Yeah, the insight into the creative process is almost as interesting as the books themselves. Really cool stuff.

[Lord Marshal Ragnrok]

i have to agree that i never understood how Abaddon came to suddenly hate Horus so much when he was formerly his most loyal son.  i still dont think he is quite on par with Horus (corrupted Horus) and i dont think he would have a chance against the Emp if he were still physically healthy.  iv assumed that the inconsistencies are simply due to the very different times in which the initial info was written.  regardless, Abaddon seems to be a complete lunatic even by chaos standards.

[Loesh]

i have to agree that i never understood how Abaddon came to suddenly hate Horus so much when he was formerly his most loyal son.  i still dont think he is quite on par with Horus (corrupted Horus) and i dont think he would have a chance against the Emp if he were still physically healthy.  iv assumed that the inconsistencies are simply due to the very different times in which the initial info was written.  regardless, Abaddon seems to be a complete lunatic even by chaos standards.

 

....Is he? I mean, despite not liking the character, it doesn't mean I don't understand the character, and he seems like an extremely sound of mind person...being so sound is why he's Chaos Ascendant.

 

His motivations make sense, he was part of the Sons of Horus, the Legion most attached to the failure of the Heresy because they were the ones who failed to deliver. Yes, you can say large swaths of the Legions were not at the Siege of Terra, even if the Emperors Children had participated in the battle there were large segments of the fighting forces missing. But that's not how the traitor legions see it, even in the Talon of Horus, despite being promptly rebuked, one of the Emperors Children makes a jab that they essentially deserve to be hunted down like dogs for their failures. Why wouldn't they feel that way? because Horus was incapable of slaying the Emperor for good, they were scattered to the stars. With him dead everyone was forced into a retreat over the course of the Great Scouring, condemning them to damnation in the afterbirth of a god. 

 

So he hates his legion, he hates it so much that he renounces it's very existence by repainting himself. Maybe there's a kindling of empathy there, somewhere deep in his heart, but it is so...so...far down. No numbers, no reference to Horus, they are the new legion, the black legion, the one forged not by the Emperor but by the hands of his Fallen Angels. He collects favors and resources over the next ten thousand years, sometimes he just crushes the opposition, sometimes he figures out a way for them to work to mutual benefit, the end result is a Warhost the largest of which has been ever seen, ten times bigger then the Word Bearers and while slow to rouse it is just as organized, or as organized as you can get inside of hell.

 

He doesn't want the galaxy to burn, no, not like Horus. He wants to rule the Imperium, not beside the Chaos Gods but for humanity, in a twisted way he and the Imperium are the same, and they both do what they do for the right reasons but in all the wrong ways. Every day, which might be three days in the Eye for 10,000 years, the Chaos Gods come to him and they beg, they cajole, they taunt, and they laugh in his face. They don't want him to win without them, but maybe he doesn't need them and is just using them as tools, maybe that's what they want him to think, maybe it's somewhere between, and maybe...maybe...it's always changing and on the off chance he succeeds that's a trend to continue.

 

Maybe he's brooding one day, obsessive the next, and likely paranoid as hell as every moment, but can you blame him? He is Warmaster of the Damned, never has there been a more tenuous position. Even his true friends are traitors, and every time he holds court it's probably with people who have tried to kill him more then once, maybe there's one in twenty who despite they very nature is a friend even in hell, but how could he tell? He might not be able to, until he orders their execution.

 

To me, he is not a lunatic. Everything he has said and done has justification, some shaky, some solid, but justification all the same. Abaddon is not a madman, he's more complex then that.

[Tenebris]

Loesh, credit to you, a great interpretation of Abaddon the Despoiler, very much so as I see him as the Warmaster of Chaos.

 

If I elaborate on his "hatred" for his own legion, father and master, we must understand the nature of the Sons of Horus first, the nature of Abaddon as First Captain, High Chieftain of the Justaerin... get it. Here were speak of the "mightiest" legion at the time of the Great Crusade. In Scars we learn that only the very best, the top class neophytes were selected for service in the XVIth Legion. From day one of boot camp they were told, if you are the best of the class you will be a Luna Wolf... and the displeasure of one such aspirant was clearly presented in the novel when he was sent to the White Scars...

 

"Not a step back..." another very informative notion about the XVIth Legion, the core philosophy of the legion, never yield, never falter, forward with all due haste, into the jaws of hell... The idea is that the Luna Wolves were the most aggressive legion out there, others were more bloody, more resolute or more crafty but the Luna Wolves made from sheer aggression an art. To unleash them it was to unleash a ruthless instrument of war, they were not butchers though, but they were indeed a very ferocious legions, Cthonians or no.

 

Then you see them become the legion of the Warmaster, Abaddon become the Primus Inter Pares among the esteemed brotherhood of the First Captains of the Legion... and so on...

 

What is almost two hundred years of high streak victories, countless achievements and being paraded as the best of the best was shattered in the defeat at Terra. But more than the defeat itself, the name of the legion carried still very much meaning and resonance among the Sons of Horus, an echo that kept the remnants shackled to a corpse and to their old glories... Abaddon understood that and he acted according to this... 

 

Maybe he was guided by hatred, maybe by vengeance, maybe even by righteousness but once he created the Black Legion he was past that for he did not create a legion based upon the vision of the Sons of Horus and his Primarch, he created a legion according to his vision of how should a legion behave and what actually means to him the concept of legion. The black paint was not just a sign of atonement, of shame, but also of rebirth. I cannot wait to read about the very first years of the Black Legion in the next book. 

[Volt]

Primarchs can kill Space Marines, in Armor, with a single punch. Abaddon's marks aren't going to do anything to protect Horus from simply knocking his head clean off, MK style.

[Loesh]

Primarchs can kill Space Marines, in Armor, with a single punch. Abaddon's marks aren't going to do anything to protect Horus from simply knocking his head clean off, MK style.

 

Ehhh, I don't know. It depends largely on the Space Marine, I know humans can kick a Space Marines arse with absurd training, i'm certain the same is true for Space Marines and Primarchs. 

 

I agree Horus would win, but that hardly makes it an easy fight.

[Tenebris]

Well truth be told it matters not who is the strongest. The Emperor killed Horus on Terra, Abaddon killed several clones of Horus with or without the blessings of the Dark Gods. The important thing is that Horus is dead and Abaddon is unwillingly put on the dais as the most capable leader of the Sons of Horus legion, or at least of the few tattered remains that were spared the massacre at Monument. 

 

I especially liked to read Abaddon in his many facets, inspiring was the image where he walks to the possessed SoH terminators and is able to awake them. And soon after he is portrayed as a charismatic leader, bonding with the warriors of several legions, proving that not only he knows them, but that he knows of their legacies too, of their merits and conduct. It is this aspect of Abaddon that is quite new to me, this Abaddon the "politician", Abaddon the "leader". 

 

Yet even so his relationship with the Sons of Horus is clearly on a whole different level than the one with the other characters, with the warriors of the other legions. It almost seems like that Abaddon seamlessly is able to fill in the void left by Horus, as the charismatic, patriarchal figure for the Sons of Horus. Abaddon the Chieftain is a facet of this character I really wish to read more about. 

[Lord Marshal Ragnrok]

 

Primarchs can kill Space Marines, in Armor, with a single punch. Abaddon's marks aren't going to do anything to protect Horus from simply knocking his head clean off, MK style.

 

Ehhh, I don't know. It depends largely on the Space Marine, I know humans can kick a Space Marines arse with absurd training, i'm certain the same is true for Space Marines and Primarchs. 

 

I agree Horus would win, but that hardly makes it an easy fight.

 

 

even with incredible training and experience, none of the greatest warriors of the astartes were able to kill a primarch.  even now only the greatest of the grey knights are able to even banish a daemon primarch.  that said, i wouldnt be so certain that space marines can truly kill a full primarch.